Harm Reduction Is giving out needles to addicts really still "harm reduction" in this age of Fent and Nitazenes?

[Shinji Ikari]

So, what needs to be done is find an ACTUAL 1:1 type replacement for heroin as opposed to methadone or buprenorphine. This can be made cheaply and given free as long as the person is complying with instructions to become a functional member of society. They can CHOSE to keep not complying, but then no free drugs for them. Obviously, this will be a big motivation and eventually these people will become productive members of society just like in NL. That's the goal anyway

I think so to. The biggest obstacle besides the obvious stigma is cost and I think that's probably the main reason the practice was mostly abandoned in the UK. I can't remember the exact figures but maintaining an addict on diamorphine costs the NHS orders of magnitude more than maintaining the same addict on methadone.

But if there were a short acting synthetic opioid with a similar half life to diamorphine that patients could collect daily and then administer at home, that could be a potential solution for those who keep relapsing with methadone alone.

 

[canadianpeduser]

The reason methadone even exists is because of this problem. Hitler had it developed due to inability to access opium during the Second World War. But, as you say, it is not so euphoric to match heroin. Netherlands has a good heroin program if all else fails a person, and the heroin issue is very very small in NL as a result despite there once having been a major issue many decades ago. So, it can work, but taxes will be higher, sure. However, they have found once heroin addicts are treated properly they begin to be able to contribute to society.

So, what needs to be done is find an ACTUAL 1:1 type replacement for heroin as opposed to methadone or buprenorphine. This can be made cheaply and given free as long as the person is complying with instructions to become a functional member of society. They can CHOSE to keep not complying, but then no free drugs for them. Obviously, this will be a big motivation and eventually these people will become productive members of society just like in NL. That's the goal anyway.

Decriminalization is a small piece of the pie here.

I agree with this. Because now in Canada everywhere street addicts are prescribed the “safe supply” of brand name dilaudid tablets in the quantity of 30-36 8mg tablets per day. Some also get amph, and coke substitution “safe supply” medications.

And what happens is they do their weekly screening an still piss dirty weekly for fentanyl… clearly it isn’t helping them get off fentanyl, in fact it’s giving them a guaranteed consistent currency to trade for fent daily. They should umm, cut them off the dilaudid if they’re not using it properly? Not keep giving them means to get fent.

The whole program is obviously something trial and error that they implemented with pure intention. Just by now it should be apparently what the true results are. I’ve never seen the major (and even smaller) Canadian cities sooooo rampant with homelessness and street level using. The problems are not being solved period

 

[Jnowhere]

The reason methadone even exists is because of this problem. Hitler had it developed due to inability to access opium during the Second World War. But, as you say, it is not so euphoric to match heroin. Netherlands has a good heroin program if all else fails a person, and the heroin issue is very very small in NL as a result despite there once having been a major issue many decades ago. So, it can work, but taxes will be higher, sure. However, they have found once heroin addicts are treated properly they begin to be able to contribute to society.

So, what needs to be done is find an ACTUAL 1:1 type replacement for heroin as opposed to methadone or buprenorphine. This can be made cheaply and given free as long as the person is complying with instructions to become a functional member of society. They can CHOSE to keep not complying, but then no free drugs for them. Obviously, this will be a big motivation and eventually these people will become productive members of society just like in NL. That's the goal anyway.

Decriminalization is a small piece of the pie here.

This is America and their is a different mindset. Also methadone was used as a treatment that was pioneered in the late 60's in America and yes German lab came up with it in 1939, I think. Their are no shortage of people who hate the liquid handcuffs, and curse that shit.
Yes actually it is a good pain killer, but will cause addiction fast, maybe faster than heroin.

Heroin is a better pain killer though, and less time to get away from physical addiction.

Yeah what is going to replace methadone and bupewhatever? Try getting that through here. Not a chance, we have a ridiculous war on opiods that is too the point that thousands of doctors have been arrested for treating their patients.

What the hell is wrong with you European's you think the whole world is like you. That everyone thinks like you?
Do 1.41billion people in China which is far more than western Europe( 200,000,000) is like you? Maybe they forgot some countries Still What about all the middle eastern countries. Just wait, sharia law will come to a European country near you.( how many European's and all the immigrants will use the democratic system to get rid of democracy).
Then what, when they reintroduce the death penalty. For consensual sex outside of marriage between a man and his wives? When the numbers grow large enough then what? The Muslim Brotherhood might some day take control or the far right and fascism will come back as it already is starting to build. Your far right, is not like our conservatives, it is Hitler, Franco, Mussolini.

Amphetamines were the really important drug of WW2. Different countries had their own.

 

[Jnowhere]

I agree with this. Because now in Canada everywhere street addicts are prescribed the “safe supply” of brand name dilaudid tablets in the quantity of 30-36 8mg tablets per day. Some also get amph, and coke substitution “safe supply” medications.

And what happens is they do their weekly screening an still piss dirty weekly for fentanyl… clearly it isn’t helping them get off fentanyl, in fact it’s giving them a guaranteed consistent currency to trade for fent daily. They should umm, cut them off the dilaudid if they’re not using it properly? Not keep giving them means to get fent.

The whole program is obviously something trial and error that they implemented with pure intention. Just by now it should be apparently what the true results are. I’ve never seen the major (and even smaller) Canadian cities sooooo rampant with homelessness and street level using. The problems are not being solved period

Road to Hell clichè, make it, drug abuse normal, but tax the shit out of cigarettes, LMAO. They said legalizing weed would reduce alcohol consumption. I live in the a state that let's you grow 12 plants if you do it where it can't be seen. 2 1/2 ounces per day you can legally buy for recreational use. Guess what, pot is on billboards, free coupons mailed out and no drop in alcohol, just a lot more stoned people.

How about crack sold at gas stations?lol
You are absolutely right, then they don't learn, they want to expand it more. I wish some of that Canadian Dilaudid was available here, or actually I just have to cross a bridge or go under a tunnel. I am joking about using it of course, but yes they sell it cheap to but fent. Apparently the fentanyl is so damn strong that Dilaudid which is really strong, ain't shit compared to fentanyl. They pass those 8mg Dilaudid pills out like candy and are sold cheap, like a dollar a piece cheap or 72 cents American.

Government subsidized and normalizing strong drug abuse and no money for people who want help. Continous cycle of trying not to be sick.


Do I need a passport ? Don't they get it from the same big Pharmaceutical company they blamed and fined.lol

 

[canadianpeduser]

Road to Hell clichè, make it, drug abuse normal, but tax the shit out of cigarettes, LMAO. They said legalizing weed would reduce alcohol consumption. I live in the a state that let's you grow 12 plants if you do it where it can't be seen. 2 1/2 ounces per day you can legally buy for recreational use. Guess what, pot is on billboards, free coupons mailed out and no drop in alcohol, just a lot more stoned people.

How about crack sold at gas stations?lol
You are absolutely right, then they don't learn, they want to expand it more. I wish some of that Canadian Dilaudid was available here, or actually I just have to cross a bridge or go under a tunnel.

Do I need a passport ? Don't they get it from the same big Pharmaceutical company they blamed and fined.lol

Yes you’d need a passport. But not being on the Canadian healthcare system might work against you

 

[GulpingBatteryLiquid]

I'm not against the doctors giving people methadone, or even actual heroin (some regions in the UK do this), to get them over the withdrawals. But you need to be tapering down, it doesn't even have to be a fast taper, it could be stretched out for months

Over here, if you're heavily addicted to alcohol, you get seven days on benzos and that's it. Stim users get nothing other than therapy. But heroin users are allowed to stay on methadone, or actual diamorphine, for essentially as long as they want. It makes no sense.

 

[chippermonk]

Your are old and probably live in a home you own and the area, I am speaking more of actual cities. Hell, I remember seeing Sonoma, Napa and those areas, are quite beautiful and their are OK areas in Northern Part of California but for the young and so many others it is not, in the cities of California and rent.
Also everything is expensive and I am talking about the future and the stupid paths of destruction and paycheck robbery by the government, I had no roots and was very nomadic as a young person, and I saw the differences in areas and politics played a huge part.

I think probably too much of your knowledge comes from watching Fox News which has an ideological axe to grind and viewers to please. I don't have the time or energy to talk about this matter too much today, but I will say my income is less than 6 figures, not at all upper middle class around here. I have a 27 year old truck and a bus pass. Don't live in SF proper anymore ( though I can see downtown across the Bay). Yes, it's an expensive area to live in and we have our problems, but I'm a very frugal person and know how to live on what I have, no complaints. Everybody has their own story.
It's true that I probably can't ever afford to move back to SF proper ( I lived in the City for many years) but it's a beautiful wonderful city, as is the whole area. I love the good mass transit, the access to the ocean and ancient redwoods and wonderful wild hiking. Year around weather for good hiking. . It's a shame that there is so much negativity by people who don't actually know anything about the area on a personal basis. If you gave me an option to move to one of your Red State paradises, I would have to pass on it. They have their problems, too. But different strokes for different folks.
Peace out and Merry Xmas

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

What the hell is wrong with you European's you think the whole world is like you. That everyone thinks like you?
Do 1.41billion people in China which is far more than western Europe( 200,000,000) is like you? Maybe they forgot some countries Still What about all the middle eastern countries. Just wait, sharia law will come to a European country near you.( how many European's and all the immigrants will use the democratic system to get rid of democracy).
Then what, when they reintroduce the death penalty. For consensual sex outside of marriage between a man and his wives? When the numbers grow large enough then what? The Muslim Brotherhood might some day take control or the far right and fascism will come back as it already is starting to build. Your far right, is not like our conservatives, it is Hitler, Franco, Mussolini.

Mmm... I could go on a three page rant in response to this, but this is not the place for such. For now, all I will bring up is the fact that there are many links between the far right in Europe and USA... And New Zealand with the Christchurch shooter for an example... And.... well, its honestly global, and in the US people seem to be in denial because unless they are actually deeply involved they cannot see the bigger picture in their own nation. Its really sad because most of the conservative leaning individuals in the US are good people, but they are easily misled due to lack of information which I think must be the biggest issue in the USA. And, yes, that ties back into censorship issue which both the left and right wing of politics in the USA support now. Again, I am being very very brief here with the things I am touching on because this level of digression from the original topic is not necessarily what is ideal here. However, I do encourage you to dig deeper in order to see the details which make up the biggest picture. Americans have tunnel vision because of how they have been trained/programmed to think on both the left and right.

China? Middle East? Yes, we are aware of the threats posed and we are handling it as best we can within the realm of the law that governs here. Even people who are considered liberals here (but I can't speak for everywhere, but many of the Northern most parts of Europe) are at least somewhat conservative on their views regarding the migrants these days because of what you described. I will not get into this either though because it goes very deep, but (again) I encourage you to keep exploring geopolitics as it is in fact very intertwined with what we are discussing. It is just too much for now is all, but your input is appreciated here.

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

Road to Hell clichè, make it, drug abuse normal, but tax the shit out of cigarettes, LMAO. They said legalizing weed would reduce alcohol consumption. I live in the a state that let's you grow 12 plants if you do it where it can't be seen. 2 1/2 ounces per day you can legally buy for recreational use. Guess what, pot is on billboards, free coupons mailed out and no drop in alcohol, just a lot more stoned people.

How about crack sold at gas stations?lol
You are absolutely right, then they don't learn, they want to expand it more. I wish some of that Canadian Dilaudid was available here, or actually I just have to cross a bridge or go under a tunnel. I am joking about using it of course, but yes they sell it cheap to but fent. Apparently the fentanyl is so damn strong that Dilaudid which is really strong, ain't shit compared to fentanyl. This pass those 8mg Dilaudid pills out like candy and are sold cheap, like a dollar a piece cheap or 72 cents American.

Government subsidized and normalizing strong drug abuse and no money for people who want help. Continous cycle of trying not to be sick.


Do I need a passport ? Don't they get it from the same big Pharmaceutical company they blamed and fined.lol

Yes, absolutely. This highlights why there need to be better controls on the distribution that is integrating of actual harm reduction rather than just handing out pills like candy. These poorly managed models of resolving the problem should serve as examples of what not to do, but they can also serve as a basis for what to do depending on how it is viewed. Nothing is all good, and nothing is all bad. Everything that is done just gives us more scientific data to observe and analyze to make adjustments as necessary. Sadly, as @canadianpeduser said: the models of treatment for the problem are not being learned from in Canada so the problem continues cyclically. See what I mean here?

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

I'm not against the doctors giving people methadone, or even actual heroin (some regions in the UK do this), to get them over the withdrawals. But you need to be tapering down, it doesn't even have to be a fast taper, it could be stretched out for months

Over here, if you're heavily addicted to alcohol, you get seven days on benzos and that's it. Stim users get nothing other than therapy. But heroin users are allowed to stay on methadone, or actual diamorphine, for essentially as long as they want. It makes no sense.

Exactly; this is the exact problem that needs handled. The patients must be slooooowly tapered, but eventually the will come off. And, if treated appropriately, the patient will (by the end of taper) have the tools necessary to shield themselves against relapse. This is how it should be handled based on what we know about addiction (specifically opioid use disorder) at this time. There will of course be some hiccups, but I would love to see how much better this model works for society.

We also need to keep exploring psychedelic assisted therapy like the Imperial College of London is showing works remarkably better than just CBT or whatever other type of treatment that is given to addicts as of now. It can almost double the success rates for recovery depending on the clinician and patient relationship that is built prior to and after the experience(s.) Unfortunately, this is still a little way away from being accepted by mainstream medicine due mainly to government push-back. This will change in time as the problem gets worse and society finally learns their lesson(s.)

 

[Jnowhere]

Exactly; this is the exact problem that needs handled. The patients must be slooooowly tapered, but eventually the will come off. And, if treated appropriately, the patient will (by the end of taper) have the tools necessary to shield themselves against relapse. This is how it should be handled based on what we know about addiction (specifically opioid use disorder) at this time. There will of course be some hiccups, but I would love to see how much better this model works for society.

We also need to keep exploring psychedelic assisted therapy like the Imperial College of London is showing works remarkably better than just CBT or whatever other type of treatment that is given to addicts as of now. It can almost double the success rates for recovery depending on the clinician and patient relationship that is built prior to and after the experience(s.) Unfortunately, this is still a little way away from being accepted by mainstream medicine due mainly to government push-back. This will change in time as the problem gets worse and society finally learns their lesson(s.)

I would have loved 7 days of Benzos when I was a drunk, I had bad withdrawals DT's and all, couldn't move at times or hold down water, let alone eat, usually 5 days but 5mg Valium would not do much if that's what they give.

Society ain't learned shit, there is a new cold war brewing Iran, Russia, China and North Korea. Why the hell do you think Kim Jung Phatass is lending troops, money, oil yes but also besides some boarder skirmishes, the last time North Korean soldiers say combat was 1953.
Over 70 years ago.

I am going to go out on a limb but I am willing to bet any survivors of the Korean war are a little too old to help. sorry.
Mankind hasn't got better, worse and no sense of honor or honesty. It has been downhill since the baby boomers aka my parents generation and because of Vietnam, and those smelly lazy hippies, I am cool with the long hair though.

The fabric of society is changing and not for the good, the internet has helped consolidate power and ruin the music industry. I WANT RECORD STORES BACK! not actual records although they have sold more vinyl than cd's for 2 years in America. I remember real record stores and when cd's were new and I had an atari 2600 and remember but never wanted a Nintendo.

I used to like skateboarding and bmx bikes.

Things are great because I am middle-aged and don't like kids or teenagers and nowadays they are mostly shut-ins, so to speak with social media and video games we couldn't have imagined.

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

I would have loved 7 days of Benzos when I was a drunk, I had bad withdrawals DT's and all, couldn't move at times or hold down water, let alone eat, usually 5 days but 5mg Valium would not do much if that's what they give.

Society ain't learned shit, there is a new cold war brewing Iran, Russia, China and North Korea. Why the hell do you think Kim Jung Phatass is lending troops, money, oil yes but also besides some boarder skirmishes, the last time North Korean soldiers say combat was 1953.
Over 70 years ago.

I am going to go out on a limb but I am willing to bet any survivors of the Korean war are a little too old to help. sorry.
Mankind hasn't got better, worse and no sense of honor or honesty. It has been downhill since the baby boomers aka my parents generation and because of Vietnam, and those smelly lazy hippies, I am cool with the long hair though.

The fabric of society is changing and not for the good, the internet has helped consolidate power and ruin the music industry. I WANT RECORD STORES BACK! not actual records although they have sold more vinyl than cd's for 2 years in America. I remember real record stores and when cd's were new and I had an atari 2600 and remember but never wanted a Nintendo.

I used to like skateboarding and bmx bikes.

Things are great because I am middle-aged and don't like kids or teenagers and nowadays they are mostly shut-ins, so to speak with social media and video games we couldn't have imagined.

I can appreciate where you are coming from, but we seem to be looking at two different aspects of society. I'm not blind to what you are saying, but I do also appreciate the other aspects of things that have improved such as our understanding of neuropsychopharmacology as well as the fact that inclusivity is a huge thing now (not that that is inherently good since we see problems with it as well which I am sure you would be keen to point out if I didn't mention them.) Anyway, your views on things are absolutely valid though a bit more on the pessimistic and/or conservative side of thinking. Nothing wrong with it as I am right there with you in many ways, but today I try to look at the positives more than the negatives.

The funny thing about this reality we live in is that, no matter how we view things, we are right no matter what....
Now you have got me beginning into quantum physics rather than politics which is where the discussion was heading otherwise...
Oh dear, well, wouldn't you look at the time...
I must be off now before I end up trapped in a paradoxical loop explaining how reality works yet again....
Happens every time lol

 

[moshforjesus]

Judging by the last few pages, it seems that I've accidentally stumbled into the Americna drug discussion forum

 

[Bleaney]

It seems to be way more of an epidemic over there. But I stared the thread on EADD as I virtually know most of the regulars on here.

 

[3DQSAR]

I really hope that European's can learn from the stupidity in parts of America.

The thing is, back in the `1960s and 1970s when the numbers of hard drug users was much smaller, European cities tried out all of the approaches North American cities have hurriedly introduced in the last few years.

When studies are just 'the lucky few' then obviously the lucky will sell on their meds. When studies represent most of the use

 

[Shinji Ikari]

We do appear to have been discussing the issue in more of a global sense.

Therefore, I am moving this thread from EADD to Drug Culture.

I also want to leave a friendly reminder for everyone to try and stay on topic. Tangents happen but this thread is supposed to be about discussing needle exchanges and harm reduction vis a vis fentanyl/nitazines. I’d rather not have to start removing posts so if you want to talk about the current state of North Korea or whether Sharia law is about to take over Europe or anything else unrelated to the thread title then please either take it to DM or save it for CEPS or the lounge.

 

[moshforjesus]

It seems to be way more of an epidemic over there. But I stared the thread on EADD as I virtually know most of the regulars on here.

Definitely a completely different context over compared with the US (thankfully). It's a shame the thread got derailed/moved outside of EADD, as it's an issue that's definitely worthy of discussion with regards the situation in the UK/Europe

 

[Bleaney]

We do appear to have been discussing the issue in more of a global sense.

Therefore, I am moving this thread from EADD to Drug Culture.

I also want to leave a friendly reminder for everyone to try and stay on topic. Tangents happen but this thread is supposed to be about discussing needle exchanges and harm reduction.

I think that might have been because of me in my OP in that I did mention both needle exchanges and the situation in the USA, so it's kind of left things open to go in any direction. And also probably conflated the two things in the process.

I'm liking the responses the thread has got, and am learning a lot, so Mods please put the thread where ever you feel it best belongs. (Not that you need my blessing or permission lol.)

 

[Shinji Ikari]

I'm liking the responses the thread has got, and am learning a lot, so Mods please put the thread where ever you feel it best belongs. (Not that you need my blessing or permission lol

Cheers mate. As we've been discussing the issue with reference to both the UK and the US since the first post in this thread moving it to a region-free forum seemed the appropriate thing to do. I don't 'need' your blessing but I appreciate it and if you are ever unhappy with a thread move or whatever you can always DM me and we'll sort it out.

And yes it's turned into a really interesting thread thanks for starting it!

Definitely a completely different context over compared with the US (thankfully). It's a shame the thread got derailed as it's an issue that's definitely worthy of discussion with regards the situation in the UK/Europe

I agree! I've only ever lived in the UK so that's my only real point of reference. Hopefully we'll be able to keep the discussion on topic from now on. I'd like to think there's room to talk about both sides of things here (as we have been already) and to allow for some compare and contrast, but if you wanted to start a new thread over in EADD to discuss needle exchanges etc in the UK only please go ahead

 

[ShulginsReincarnation]

I agree! I've only ever lived in the UK so that's my only real point of reference.

Its my understand that the UK's nitazene problem is shaping up to be similar to the fentanyl problem in the US so far. Well, it sounds like the beginnings of how the fentanyl problem started in the US anyway. I could be wrong, but that is what it sounds like from the webinars I have listened to on drug consumption throughout Europe as well as the data I have seen on it and information I have gained here.

Does this seem accurate to you??