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What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

So I'm up for sending some of my bad product to kykeonanalytics. Just want to know it's worth doing. Are we confident that they can do a good analysis? Would they be able to identify things like MDDMA contamination that was talked about earlier in this thread?

If so, is there anything specific I should say to them or just go for the Full Quantitative and Qualitative option?
 
ThreePointCircle said:
Ok, so maybe ask them if they can differentiate M-ALPHA-HMCA, MDDMA, anything else?
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MDE, bk-MDMA (aka: methylone), 3-MMC, 4-MMC, ethylone, butylone, 5-APB, 5-MAPB, 6-APB, 6-MAPB, and MDDMA + n-methyl-MDDMA potentially, just off the top of my head… oh, also 3,4-dimethoxyamphetamine and 3,4-dimethoxy-n-methyl-amphetamine.
 
ThreePointCircle said:
So I'm up for sending some of my bad product to kykeonanalytics. Just want to know it's worth doing. Are we confident that they can do a good analysis? Would they be able to identify things like MDDMA contamination that was talked about earlier in this thread?

If so, is there anything specific I should say to them or just go for the Full Quantitative and Qualitative option?
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I've personally talked to Rafael Sacramento and they definitely do have more tools and knowledge then the VAST majority of labs we send it to. I can't say if they hold the key but...

They will also produce the NMR and similar graphs for us. What the limits are are can't say. I don't remember asking if they had XRD at the time. Or if I bothered to ask...

But you would definitely want more then what a typical scan asks for. At the very least they do provide reasonable priced NMR graphs.

Which in our past experience gained a lot of info. My questions involved MDMA, COCAINE and LSD. So they were generally more vague then specifically asking about MDMA. But they can definitely tell us and show us more then most labs have last I checked.

The right question/s to ask is more phrased like does my MDMA contain any of the following..

Not is my MDMA.. MDMA.. because we know by in large it is MDMA. Or at least tested like it.
 
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ThreePointCircle said:
So I'm up for sending some of my bad product to kykeonanalytics. Just want to know it's worth doing. Are we confident that they can do a good analysis? Would they be able to identify things like MDDMA contamination that was talked about earlier in this thread?

If so, is there anything specific I should say to them or just go for the Full Quantitative and Qualitative option?
Click to expand...
First off, thank you for considering sending out for advanced analysis. I can't say from experience, but Hamilton Morris seems to think they are somewhat reliable. They certainly have instrumentation that many analytical labs do not have.

You'll probably get the "Full Quantitative + Qualitative Analysis" and specifically ask for an NMR analysis with an emphasis on the minor compounds present. FTIR is great but it isn't able to screen for compounds that aren't preprogrammed into it's library. Therefore many of the synthetic byproducts and also related analogues probably won't be seen with FTIR. You can download the list on their site but I couldn't open it without excel. They might actually have data for MDDMA which isn't that obscure IMO.

Anyway they say they will identify and quantify the primary components and identify minors/impurities.

"There may be a few exceptional cases (less than 1% of the cases in our experience) where we won’t be able to identify a substance even using all our different analytical instruments and techniques, and therefore the result will be stated as ´unknown substance found´."

Whether they will be able to definitively identify different hydrates or enantiomers I'm not sure. That would be a good question to ask them. They should be able to distinguish between different positional isomers, analogues, and homologues. You might even point them to this thread because I'm sure they would love the honor of being the lab to solve this "problem".

Please send out, and update us with results. What we need is data and not hunches or feelings.
 
Didgital said:
First off, thank you for considering sending out for advanced analysis. I can't say from experience, but Hamilton Morris seems to think they are somewhat reliable. They certainly have instrumentation that many analytical labs do not have.

You'll probably get the "Full Quantitative + Qualitative Analysis" and specifically ask for an NMR analysis with an emphasis on the minor compounds present. FTIR is great but it isn't able to screen for compounds that aren't preprogrammed into it's library. Therefore many of the synthetic byproducts and also related analogues probably won't be seen with FTIR. You can download the list on their site but I couldn't open it without excel. They might actually have data for MDDMA which isn't that obscure IMO.

Anyway they say they will identify and quantify the primary components and identify minors/impurities.

"There may be a few exceptional cases (less than 1% of the cases in our experience) where we won’t be able to identify a substance even using all our different analytical instruments and techniques, and therefore the result will be stated as ´unknown substance found´."

Whether they will be able to definitively identify different hydrates or enantiomers I'm not sure. That would be a good question to ask them. They should be able to distinguish between different positional isomers, analogues, and homologues. You might even point them to this thread because I'm sure they would love the honor of being the lab to solve this "problem".

Please send out, and update us with results. What we need is data and not hunches or feelings.
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I've pointed to this thread when I talked to them so they are semi aware at least. Would be a good reminder though...
 
Speaking of hydrates btw... sometimes on GC analysis instead of a single peak, we see a "choppy" peak in a peak consisting of several peaks. When we look at the spectral data they all identify as MDMA. However, each peak corresponds to a different boiling point essentially so I'm assuming these are different hydrates of MDMA HCL. When I dissolve the sample in water, basify, extract w ethyl acetate and rerun the same material as a freebase, I get a single peak.

As far as hydrates exhibiting different pharmacological properties I don't really think that's the case.

Also these hydrates are not present in freshly prepared MDMA HCL that are salted using anhydrous HCL gas. However from my understanding of this paper, even anhydrous MDMA HCL will absorb atmoshperic moisture over time and incorporate water within the crystal lattice, which again makes me think that there shouldn't really be any difference in pharmacological effects (Maybe bioavailability). I've never heard of MDMA changing over time..

If one wanted to specifically explore anhydrous vs hydrated mdma, they could take a gram of quality mdma, freebase it, then split that and salt into the HCL salt with the hydrochloric acid as a gas and then aqueous hcl separately.


Anyway just thinking out loud here.
 
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Didgital said:
Speaking of hydrates btw... sometimes on GC analysis instead of a single peak, we see a "choppy" peak in a peak consisting of several peaks. When we look at the spectral data they all identify as MDMA. However, each peak corresponds to a different boiling point essentially so I'm assuming these are different hydrates of MDMA HCL. When I dissolve the sample in water, basify, extract w ethyl acetate and rerun the same material as a freebase, I get a single peak.

As far as hydrates exhibiting different pharmacological properties I don't really think that's the case.

Also these hydrates are not present in freshly prepared MDMA HCL that are salted using anhydrous HCL gas. However from my understanding of this paper, even anhydrous MDMA HCL will absorb atmoshperic moisture over time and incorporate water within the crystal lattice, which again makes me think that there shouldn't really be any difference in pharmacological effects (Maybe bioavailability). I've never heard of MDMA changing over time..

If one wanted to specifically explore anhydrous vs hydrated mdma, they could take a gram of quality mdma, freebase it, then split that and salt into the HCL salt with the hydrochloric acid as a gas and then aqueous hcl separately.


Anyway just thinking out loud here.
Click to expand...
quote FTIR/LCMS/NMR Results (not me)

"I sent a 100mg sample to Kykeon Analytics for full qualitative and quantitative analysis.
Results are 96.3% cocaine hcl, traces of cinnamoylcocaine (a natural byproduct) and no adulterants found, confirming what bioassays strongly suggested. The report is 13 pages long, here are the pages that I think are the most relevant. Cheers everyone.

Page 1 - Summary - https://dump.li/image/6a6df0de835b0109.png
Page 2 - https://dump.li/image/041abc02bf45b66f.png
Page 3 - Qualitative Analysis - Adulterants - https://dump.li/image/2af826c054b9ee51.png"


Cheers and thank you all"

Kykeon Analytics

Kykeon Analytics
www.kykeonanalytics.com www.kykeonanalytics.com

Energy Control can only quantify from a list of known substances, which leaves qualitative, which is great for identification, but not purity.

Yes! We are happy to perform a custom analysis for your sample. If you would like us to do a custom analysis for your sample, for instance doing a specific NMR or mass spectrometry experiment, or if you want us to follow a specific extraction procedure or quantify a specific minor alkaloid in a plant, then please don’t hesitate to contact us with your request. We always strive to find solutions for each user’s specific needs and we are always happy to expand the analyses that we offer.

We have the capability to detect and quantify a wide range of substances. Our laboratory employs advanced analytical techniques to both identify (qualitative analysis) and measure the purity (quantitative analysis) of various compounds.

Unlike Energy Control, which rely on the substances for which they have reference standards to do quantification via LC or GC-MS, at Kykeon we also use Nuclear Magnetic Resonance as part of the methodology used, employing an internal standard which allows us to quantify substances that we do not have reference standards for. We also continuously acquire reference standards to use with our LC-MS to complement the NMR results.

Please note that we analyze organic compounds, but do not accept biological samples (urine, blood etc), radioactive or very reactive material (explosives, strong oxidants). We also do not at the moment have the capability to test for heavy metals.

I hope that answers your questions. If you are curious whether we test something very specific that doesn´t clearly fall under the criteria mentioned above, feel free to ask. Also please do ask if you have other questions.

KykeonLab
posted on 24-2-2024 at 11:22


Cheers!


Just for anyone wondering about Kykeon Analytics, partial information such as vendor/batch has been withheld due to forum rules. XRD is not avaiable yet it appears.
 
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Didgital said:
Speaking of hydrates btw... sometimes on GC analysis instead of a single peak, we see a "choppy" peak in a peak consisting of several peaks. When we look at the spectral data they all identify as MDMA. However, each peak corresponds to a different boiling point essentially so I'm assuming these are different hydrates of MDMA HCL. When I dissolve the sample in water, basify, extract w ethyl acetate and rerun the same material as a freebase, I get a single peak.

As far as hydrates exhibiting different pharmacological properties I don't really think that's the case.

Also these hydrates are not present in freshly prepared MDMA HCL that are salted using anhydrous HCL gas. However from my understanding of this paper, even anhydrous MDMA HCL will absorb atmoshperic moisture over time and incorporate water within the crystal lattice, which again makes me think that there shouldn't really be any difference in pharmacological effects (Maybe bioavailability). I've never heard of MDMA changing over time..

If one wanted to specifically explore anhydrous vs hydrated mdma, they could take a gram of quality mdma, freebase it, then split that and salt into the HCL salt with the hydrochloric acid as a gas and then aqueous hcl separately.


Anyway just thinking out loud here.
Click to expand...
My understanding is most labs apparently titrate the MDMA base. But who knows.
 
ThreePointCircle said:
Well they've replied saying they can test for all of the above
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I want to clarify some things.

I'm not sure if they can test polymorphs/forms? I didn't see XRD on the website.

Now when it comes to hydrates.

Here's my experience

I had a Xanax powder that was CRAP. It was probably pressing powder. But was NOT bitter and I could lick an entire thumb print. And basically not fell with low to no tolerance

I sent it to energy control via GC/MS wayyyy back. And came back 99% Xanax. I'm like bullshit it didn't dissolve in everclear right. It's effect was lack luster. I believe was only on of the fee tests they did before

I remember when a now defunct vendor offered an 10k bounty on his API. And would only accept NMR results to back his and now understanding why..

Now later a new batch was tested via FTIR at GYDT. There was a small contamination of a carbohydrate.

I never liked GYTD but it's free, like UVIC. RAMAN AND PAPER SPRAY mass spec was done and was found to contain a small water contamination lining up with said "carbohydrate chemically" with the tool provided I guess.

They definitely can tell water contamination, but I'm not sure specifically which hydrate polymorphs etc. this is of course my personal observations.

This Xanax was dissolved 1000mg to 1000ml and many people underestimate 1 ml of shaken every time mix to 200 to 190/180 proof ethanol depending when I open a bottle sorta logic. People claim it's close or is 1 to 1 to 1mg footballs from EU

But...

I also had recrystallized MDMA from dh20 looked AMAZING but lack luster.

And also from 200 proof ethanol everything was came up slow but both were lackluster with multiple people. I do have high humidity area but did not lab test the MDMA I'll see if I can find that batch
Everything was done room temp 50-60 after dissolving and evaporate slow with high humidity

I would like to try ethyl acate or freezer/ or low heater method to see if it can stop the humidity issue I have a bit
 
I can ask I guess. The person who I had the email exchange with simply said put it in the notes on the ordering form (which I will look at tonight).

What exact wording should I use?
 
ThreePointCircle said:
I can ask I guess. The person who I had the email exchange with simply said put it in the notes on the ordering form (which I will look at tonight).

What exact wording should I use?
Click to expand...
differentiate M-ALPHA-HMCA, MDDMA,
MDE, bk-MDMA (aka: methylone), 3-MMC, 4-MMC, ethylone, butylone, 5-APB, 5-MAPB, 6-APB, 6-MAPB, and MDDMA + n-methyl-MDDMA potentially, just off the top of my head… oh, also 3,4-dimethoxyamphetamine and 3,4-dimethoxy-n-methyl-amphetamine.
hydrates/ polymorphs

the MALDI... let me think of what else.
 
Ok, so the chemical list, all the regioisomers of MDMA, hydrates/polymorphs and MALDI.

What about 1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanamine and N-formyl-1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-prop-2-yl-amine ?

And enantiomers?
 
LucidSDreamr said:
Damn this thread has been going on so long. Is it still made using the Glycidate starting material like it was when this thread began?
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Well, (racemic) MDMA/MDA/MDE are still reductively aminated from MDP-2-P, aka: PMK for piperonyl methyl ketone. PMK-glycidate was just a technicality to avoid issues with customs when shipping from China to other countries. There are still chemists who will steam distill or press sassafras plant roots for the oil, vacuum distill the safrole to purity, isomerize it and convert it to the ketone intermediate (PMK) and then reduce per usual with ammonia, methylamine or ethylamine. It's not as though glycidates were at all a necessary part of the process beyond disguising the ketone for customs purposes.
 
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