Israel is under attack

[Antares]

Both of these sides are fucked and not in a position to think rationally. It also can't be solved anyway unless someone deals with Hamas' cowardly, trash leadership, and that is something countries like the US would have to decide to do. At least with Israel it seems like a lot of people there are getting sick of Netanyahu's shit, and there is actually a mechanism to remove him from power.

I don't see the US deciding to force Hamas's leadership to fuck off, though. Our president right now is a guy who said "without Israel no Jew can ever be safe!!!" like bitch, you're the president of the US, which is probably safer for Jews if just because we're further away from warzones and all those countries that want them dead. If you think the US isn't safe for Jews, fucking work to fix it. You're the one with power.

With nobody really trying for any solution that's going to have a chance at success, though... I think it's pretty clear that Israel is going to make far too enemies in the world to continue surviving in that part of the world (and sadly, it's also going to feed a lot of antisemitism all over), and Palestine will also cease to exist. It's pretty much already decided, with the types of leaders we have.

 

[arrall]

they mainly used machetes and small arms

The Rwandan Civil War was actually fought with firearms, which funnily enough were supplied by Israel.

Look at Rwanda- 800,000 killed in 3 months

Compare the populations.
Rwanda had a population of 8 million and 500-800,000 were killed.
The city of Gaza has a population of half a million while the strip itself has a population of 2 million.
https://www.haaretz.com/2015-01-03/...genocide/0000017f-db06-df9c-a17f-ff1ef7130000
In Rwanda, civilians were armed and took part in the genocide on the ground.
Israeli citizens are not storming into Gaza.
A huge portion of the genocide is conducted via airstrikes.

 

[Jabberwocky]

in what ways is it vague? they deliberated and came up with it and signed it... and must abide by it. vague or not, israel is definitionally guilty of war crimes, including genocidal actions.

maybe vague wasn't the best word, moreso overly broad

1. A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
2. A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
   • Killing members of the group
   • Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
   • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
   • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
   • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.

By the minimum required definition per the UN website, 'genocide' has occurred in virtually every war ever conducted.

Russia is even more egregious than Israel in the war in Ukraine, up to stealing and brainwashing children, deliberately targeting civilians, torturing civilans, and rigging elections in Eastern Ukraine. But I don't recall ever seeing anyone call the war in Ukraine "genocide", yet I've seen the word "genocide" a million times in this thread referring to Israel.

This whole conflict has made me realize that the left is just as susceptible to foreign propaganda as the right, as long as it is framed correctly; in this case, imperialist western powers vs minorities. That is highly distorted, though. Palestinian isn't even recognized as a distinct ethnicity. They are Arabs, and compared to Jews, Arabs are NOT the minority, Jews are.

 

[mauve]

maybe vague wasn't the best word, moreso overly broad



By the minimum required definition per the UN website, 'genocide' has occurred in virtually every war ever conducted.

Russia is even more egregious than Israel in the war in Ukraine, up to stealing and brainwashing children, deliberately targeting civilians, torturing civilans, and rigging elections in Eastern Ukraine. But I don't recall ever seeing anyone call the war in Ukraine "genocide", yet I've seen the word "genocide" a million times in this thread referring to Israel.

This whole conflict has made me realize that the left is just as susceptible to foreign propaganda as the right, as long as it is framed correctly; in this case, imperialist western powers vs minorities. That is highly distorted, though. Palestinian isn't even recognized as a distinct ethnicity. They are Arabs, and compared to Jews, Arabs are NOT the minority, Jews are.

Didn't the Kremlin state that genocide was being committed on Russians in Ukraine, which justified the invasion on Ukraine by the Russians. Let me see if I can find the news article. It's ridiculous.

I think this was the article

UN top court can rule on Ukraine case against Russia

Ukraine brought the case in 2022, accusing Russia of falsely using genocide law to justify its invasion.

www.bbc.com

 

[swilow]

huge portion of the genocide is conducted via airstrikes.

How can you tell these air strikes are acts of genocide and not the collateral damage that is always incurred via air strikes in every combat such tactics have been used?

I'm sure you've noticed that the death toll has not grown at anywhere near the pace it did in the early weeks of the war. Either Israel got worse at genocide, or they realised their aerial tactics weren't effective against their real target and they learned/changed them.

The whole death toll thing should be scrutinised more closely too. How exactly are Hamas tallying up these figures? Let's say 30,000 people have died, 70% of who Hamas say are women and children. Hamas also stated that 6000 fighters died. Women and children together make up roughly 70% of the population of Gaza. 24000 is in the same ballpark as 70% of 30000. Hamas are here saying that basically no civilian men have died in this conflict. This is so unlikely as to almost certainly be bullshit.

If they are lying about the proportionality death toll, there is a reason. A part of that reason could very well be to manipulate well meaning young idealistic westerners into pressuring their governments via protest and dissent into withdrawing support from Israel to isolate it politically and make it more vulnerable to its many latent enemies. I wonder if many of this cohort think they're being manipulated by terrorists?

 

[mal3volent]

How can you tell these air strikes are acts of genocide and not the collateral damage that is always incurred via air strikes in every combat such tactics have been used?

I'm sure you've noticed that the death toll has not grown at anywhere near the pace it did in the early weeks of the war. Either Israel got worse at genocide, or they realised their aerial tactics weren't effective against their real target and they learned/changed them.

The whole death toll thing should be scrutinised more closely too. How exactly are Hamas tallying up these figures? Let's say 30,000 people have died, 70% of who Hamas say are women and children. Hamas also stated that 6000 fighters died. Women and children together make up roughly 70% of the population of Gaza. 24000 is in the same ballpark as 70% of 30000. Hamas are here saying that basically no civilian men have died in this conflict. This is so unlikely as to almost certainly be bullshit.

If they are lying about the proportionality death toll, there is a reason. A part of that reason could very well be to manipulate well meaning young idealistic westerners into pressuring their governments via protest and dissent into withdrawing support from Israel to isolate it politically and make it more vulnerable to its many latent enemies. I wonder if many of this cohort think they're being manipulated by terrorists?

That's obviously the case, as I've been saying for months now.

These...

well meaning young idealistic westerners

as you so generously described them are actually extremely ignorant of the facts as evidenced in the video I just posted. Socialist groups handing out material at these pro Palestine events, they walk around chanting about a socialist intifada having no clue whatsoever what it means. From the river to the sea, but they don't know which river or sea, or what the phrase implies. The destruction of Israel.

The far-left/far-right alliance is becoming more and more emboldened on this issue. The lines between Israeli government>Zionists>Jews are becoming blurred. I see it everyday on X, YouTube, and right here on Bluelight. We don't hate all Jews, just the ones that don't cosign our political manifesto. In that case you are a Zionist, and Zionist means real bad stuff. As one person here put it, it's "what Israel is doing".

 

[Electrum1]

Remember how the Hamas death numbers increased in such a mathematical way that it was impossible for them to be legit? I haven't checked back in on that but posted the link here maybe a month ago

 

[mal3volent]

Remember how the Hamas death numbers increased in such a mathematical way that it was impossible for them to be legit? I haven't checked back in on that but posted the link here maybe a month ago

yeah I 'member.

bUt ThE nUmBeRs hAvE aLwAys BeEn AcCuRaTe iN tHe PasT

 

[swilow]

yeah I 'member.

bUt ThE nUmBeRs hAvE aLwAys BeEn AcCuRaTe iN tHe PasT

I just wish people would take this numerical discrepancy to its ultimate conclusion- why do Hamas inflate civilian numbers? To garner support and foster opposition to Israel- and from there, it's not much of a leap to the realisation that civlian deaths actually further Hamas' aims and therefore maybe there's a possibility that Israel and the US's claims about Hamas using human shields, and stationing themselves among the populace, are quite possibly true. If that is all correct, it's also a small step towards the light bulb moment where one should start to consider Hamas as a greater threat to its own people than even Israel.

 

[mal3volent]

I just wish people would take this numerical discrepancy to its ultimate conclusion- why do Hamas inflate civilian numbers? To garner support and foster opposition to Israel- and from there, it's not much of a leap to the realisation that civlian deaths actually further Hamas' aims and therefore maybe there's a possibility that Israel and the US's claims about Hamas using human shields, and stationing themselves among the populace, are quite possibly true. If that is all correct, it's also a small step towards the light bulb moment where one should start to consider Hamas as a greater threat to its own people than even Israel.

pretty sure they've all but admitted it. This is from 2014. Much harder to find video like this from recent years.

Hamas leader Muhammad Deif: "Today you [Israelis] are fighting divine soldiers, who love death for Allah like you love life, and who compete among themselves for Martyrdom like you flee from death."
Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh: "We love death like our enemies love life! We love Martyrdom, the way in which [Hamas] leaders died."

 

[Electrum1]

That's why their fertility rate is like twice the current rates of a lot of countries. In the 80's they even said they'd beat the West with numbers. Most Western countries are well below the replacement rate of ~2.1

They mean business, and will keep creating future soldiers

This statistic shows the fertility rate in the Arab world (Arab League) from 2011 to 2021. The fertility rate is the average number of children born to one woman while being of child-bearing age. In 2021, the fertility rate in the Arab world amounted to 3.14 children per woman

 

[swilow]

Israel-Gaza war: Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh says three sons killed in air strike

Israel says Ismail Haniyeh's sons were all members of Hamas's military wing.

www.google.com

Even with his sons and grandchildren dying, he doesn't back down. Freedom fighter or deranged fanatic?

 

[Antares]

I just wish people would take this numerical discrepancy to its ultimate conclusion- why do Hamas inflate civilian numbers? To garner support and foster opposition to Israel- and from there, it's not much of a leap to the realisation that civlian deaths actually further Hamas' aims and therefore maybe there's a possibility that Israel and the US's claims about Hamas using human shields, and stationing themselves among the populace, are quite possibly true. If that is all correct, it's also a small step towards the light bulb moment where one should start to consider Hamas as a greater threat to its own people than even Israel.

While I agree with you on pretty much all of this, I do think it's worth criticizing the way the human shields thing is always brought up. It only ever seems to come up as a defense when people are upset over the killing of civilians, and in such a simplistic way that it ends up feeling a bit like Israel is hiding behind those same human shields to keep their hands clean of the fact that they killed civilians, knowing full well they were present in whichever situation. I wish that people would just add a bit more to it every time they want to bring this up, like the question of "what is your perfect solution to eliminating an enemy threat that has this sort of behavior? Lie down and let them kill you?"

The people who don't automatically make the link to that kind of question aren't all just ideologically captured or anti-Israel. Some of them are just caught up in an emotional reaction, some have been consuming one-sided propaganda and haven't really had anyone ask them to think about the perspective an actual normie person living in Israel might have living in this kind of situation, and others might just be a bit stupid and need it laid out clearly.

 

[mal3volent]

Meanwhile, in Dearborn

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/gQmGMsfj7K

Dearborn activist said it would be an 'honor' to be on terror list

Islamic activist Tarek Bazzi, whose Michigan rally sparked calls of 'Death to America', has previously said it would be an 'honor' to be placed on a list of 'history's biggest terrorists'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Antares]

Whenever I see someone say things like "THE WORST THAT CAN HAPPEN IS I DIE" all I really hear is "I HAVE NEVER SUFFERED ANYTHING BUT MINOR INCONVENIENCES IN MY LIFE"

You'd think a guy who hates imperialism and the US would maybe consider what prison will be like for him if he ever gets off his lazy butt. It will, after all, be an American prison. We don't bother with rehabilitation here.

 

[Electrum1]

They'll blow up their children, because they're playing to win

 

[mauve]

Biden vows 'ironclad' support for Israel amid Iran attack fears

"We're going to do all we can to protect Israel's security," Mr Biden said amid growing fears of retaliation.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's it and both have nuclear weapons

 

[mal3volent]

U.S. Moves Warships to Defend Israel in Case of Iranian Attack​

Biden's message to Iran about retaliatory strike on Israel: 'Don't'

At the same time, he said he expects an Iranian attack "sooner than later."

abcnews.go.com

President Joe Biden told reporters Friday afternoon he expects an Iranian strike on Israel to occur "sooner than later" amid urgent concerns that Iran was about to retaliatefor the bombing of its consulate in Damascus, Syria, earlier this month.

Asked for his message to Iran in the tense moment, Biden was blunt, saying simply, "Don't."

"Would the U.S. respond?" ABC News Chief White House Correspondent Mary Bruce asked repeatedly as the president walked away after finishing an unrelated event. He paused, thought a moment and returned to the lectern.

"We are devoted to the defense of Israel. We will support Israel. We will help defend Israel and Iran will not succeed," he said.

Biden's comments come as other high-level U.S. officials worked urgently behind the scenes to pressure Iran to back down from its threat to launch a retaliatory strike -- the latest challenge facing the Biden administration as it tries to avert an all-out regional war in the Middle East.

At the same time, the U.S. was moving troops and other assets to the Middle East as Iran readied a large number of missiles and drones for a potential strike against Israel, according to U.S. officials.

The deployment of American troops was intended to try to deter Iran from launching a large-scale attack and protecting U.S. troops in the region

Two U.S. officials said that Iran has readied more than a hundred cruise missiles for a possible strike.

The U.S. assets being moved into the region in response could assist with air defense, according to one official.

Some 3,400 US troops are in Iraq and Syria with tens of thousands more U.S. personnel in the Middle East region.

 

[mauve]

Biden vows 'ironclad' support for Israel amid Iran attack fears

"We're going to do all we can to protect Israel's security," Mr Biden said amid growing fears of retaliation.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's it and both have nuclear weapons

@Antares it's true Iran has nuclear weapons so does Israel

 

[Antares]

@Antares it's true Iran has nuclear weapons so does Israel

I didn't hear about Iran having any actual weapons yet, but that first reaction I gave to your post was an accident, sorry. Meant to click on the angry one, I was angry about the article because I am going to be very, very pissed off if Biden lets Israel drag the US into a war with Iran.

I feel like he's trying very hard to make me vote for Trump, who I agree with on nothing, with the hopes that maybe he'll call up Tucker Carlson and get told that war with Iran is stupid and decide to pull out. Like what the actual fuck.