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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

Israel is under attack

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My definition is irrelevant, I'll get back to ya when I ask my friend who's Jewish.

What's your definition?

your definition is very relevant. You said not all your Jewish friends are zionists and many don't agree with what's going on. I was just curious what meaning you were giving to that word that you chose to use.
 
your definition is very relevant. You said not all your Jewish friends are zionists and many don't agree with what's going on. I was just curious what meaning you were giving to that word that you chose to use.
Oh your curious to the meaning of the word I chose to use. Well Zionism is what is happening in Israel, and not a reflection of Judaism as a whole, especially my fellow Jews in Europe

What is your definition?
 
Watch the goal posts move:

"They were super accepted in Europe and America after WW2."
"favorable perspective on jews in the western world since WW2"
"i'm mainly talking about the current situation, as a historical result of WW2"

To you it's moving goalposts, to me it's clarification of a reference i initially thought to be obvious. It's really you guys acting like there was something enigmatic about my lazy summary. The other guy mysteriously quit replying for some reason...

"Europe and America" is like 98% synonymous with "the western world". I really didn't think using super precise language would be necessary to drive home such a simple point.

Btw you failed to address my important remark that the voices you mentioned are fringe and not normal western values and that left wing criticism is chiefly centered on Israel, not jews as a people.
 
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To you it's moving goalposts, to me it's clarification of a reference i initially thought to be obvious. It's really you guys acting like there was something enigmatic about my lazy summary. The other guy mysteriously quit replying for some reason...

"Europe and America" is like 98% synonymous with "the western world". I really didn't think using super precise language would be necessary to drive home such a simple point.

It more "super accepted after ww2" > "favorable perspective since ww2" > "current situation". Western world wasn't the problem. The first phrase covers 80 years and makes a much bolder claim. We go from super accepted to favorable. From after ww2 to current day.

It's fine if you want to amend the language you used, but don't act like I'm crazy for having an issue with how you initially framed it... that's all.

Oh your curious to the meaning of the word I chose to use. Well Zionism is what is happening in Israel, and not a reflection of Judaism as a whole, especially my fellow Jews in Europe

What is your definition?

Zionism is "what's happening is Israel" ? See that's exactly why I ask. People use and contort this word for their own purposes. Some might think it is an expansionist ideology, others might say it political, or religious, or some combination of both. While others insist it is simply the right of Jews to have a state in their ancestral homeland.

If you try to find a definition online it will vary dramatically depending on the political slant of your source.

What is my definition? I would probably defer to the ADL, with the added context it provides:

Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. The vast majority of Jews around the world feel a connection or kinship with Israel, whether or not they explicitly identify as Zionists, and regardless of their opinions on the policies of the Israeli government.

While there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the land of Israel over the millennia, the yearning to return to Zion, the biblical term for both the land of Israel and Jerusalem, has been a cornerstone of Jewish communal life since the Romans violently colonized the land, sending Jews into exile two thousand years ago. An earlier exile by the Babylonians produced perhaps the most well-known lamentation “By the rivers of Babylon, there we wept as we remembered Zion.” That connection between Jews and the land, and the hope for repatriation, is deeply embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture.

What is known as modern Zionism emerged in the mid-19th century in tandem with the rise of the nation-state and widespread national liberation movements across Europe. In the case of the Jews, it was also in response to a long history of intense anti-Jewish hatred, persecution, and discrimination in countries and societies across the world where Jews lived, including in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. Its advocates believed that a modern Jewish state would provide Jews with a safe haven from the bigotry and endangerment they suffered perennially as a minority culture among non-Jewish majority cultures, and ensure that Jews have the same right to nationhood and self-determination as any other people, along with the same protections that are typically afforded to other nations. Zionism was also a cultural and national renaissance movement which sought to enable the Jewish people to revive their language, Hebrew, and reestablish self-determination over their traditions, culture, religion and education.

In the late 1800s, the “father” of modern Zionism, Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl, consolidated various strands of Zionist thought into an organized political movement, advocating for international recognition of an independent and sovereign Jewish state in the land of Israel.

Today, with a Jewish sovereign state a reality, Zionists believe in and support the right of the democratic State of Israel to exist as a Jewish homeland. Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. Being a Zionist is distinct from supporting the policies of the government of Israel.

Zionism is a big tent movement that includes those across the spectrum from progressives, moderates and conservatives and those who are apolitical. There are Zionists who are critical of Israeli policies, just as there are Zionists who rarely voice disagreement with the Israeli government. There are diverse views among Zionists about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, about how to promote peace, whether to support a two-state solution, and about approaches to Israeli settlements. Being critical of Israeli policies is no more anti-Zionist than being critical of American policies is anti-American.

Zionism does not preclude support for Palestinian self-determination and statehood. For some Zionists, support for a two-state solution is the realization of self-determination for Jews and Palestinians alike.

There are also millions of non-Jews who consider themselves Zionists and supporters of the Jewish state, who are motivated by factors including religion, history, security or politics.

I do not think it is a particularly useful term. At least not in the way people have been using it in this thread.

Saying you are a Zionist or an anti-Zionist doesn't actually convey very much about your beliefs or what you think.
 
What's happening in Israel is quite accurate, unless you'd like to argue with the Cambridge dictionary definition

 
Oh my Jewish friend said to them it means- My definition of zionism is the belief in THAT KILLING FOR THE SAKE OF AN ESTABLISHMENT OF A STATE IS ACCEPTABLE
 
What's happening in Israel is quite accurate, unless you'd like to argue with the Cambridge dictionary definition


So what exactly does it mean to "support the state of Israel" ?
Are you saying you don't support the idea of Israel as a state in general? That you do not currently support its policies? In that case, if their leadership and policies changed, would your stance on "Zionism" also change ?
 
So what exactly does it mean to "support the state of Israel" ?
Are you saying you don't support the idea of Israel as a state in general? That you do not currently support its policies? In that case, if their leadership and policies changed, would your stance on "Zionism" also change ?
I stand with my friends view to be honest
 
Oh my Jewish friend said to them it means- My definition of zionism is the belief in THAT KILLING FOR THE SAKE OF AN ESTABLISHMENT OF A STATE IS ACCEPTABLE

Will you ask your friend which States established themselves without any killing?
 
Hopefully Iran will come to gazas aid and bomb the shit out of the idf for murderiing so many innocent civilians and children.
 
I think she meant in the present not past

Well then, the state of Israel was formed in the past. So they should be good with it then.

What's going on right now has nothing to do with the formation of a state. It is about removing Hamas and its infrastructure, and to deny them the capability of reorganizing and planning future attacks.

I would hope everyone would support that effort. Perfectly reasonable to be critical of how they're going about it. That's an entire separate discussion.
 
I just want this all to end because what is happening in this small little part of the world seems to make people think that it's a reflection of the rest of us
 
I just want this all to end because what is happening in this small little part of the world seems to make people think that it's a reflection of the rest of us

People are going to hate Jews no matter what, so I wouldn't worry too much.
 
Hopefully Iran will come to gazas aid and bomb the shit out of the idf for murderiing so many innocent civilians and children.

At least they'd have legitimate military targets, unlike Hamas who hides beneath and within civilian infrastructure.
 
What's happening in Israel should not be a reflection on Judaism or Jews around the world
 
It more "super accepted after ww2" > "favorable perspective since ww2" > "current situation". Western world wasn't the problem. The first phrase covers 80 years and makes a much bolder claim. We go from super accepted to favorable. From after ww2 to current day.

It's fine if you want to amend the language you used, but don't act like I'm crazy for having an issue with how you initially framed it... that's all.



Zionism is "what's happening is Israel" ? See that's exactly why I ask. People use and contort this word for their own purposes. Some might think it is an expansionist ideology, others might say it political, or religious, or some combination of both. While others insist it is simply the right of Jews to have a state in their ancestral homeland.

If you try to find a definition online it will vary dramatically depending on the political slant of your source.

What is my definition? I would probably defer to the ADL, with the added context it provides:



I do not think it is a particularly useful term. At least not in the way people have been using it in this thread.

Saying you are a Zionist or an anti-Zionist doesn't actually convey very much about your beliefs or what you think.

Wut i still stand by "super accepted" it's just synonymous descriptions, i'm not a robot lol

Jews really are super accepted in the west after WW2 (as a consequence of events during WW2), except among some fringe groups.
 
Wut i still stand by "super accepted" it's just synonymous descriptions, i'm not a robot lol

Jews really are super accepted in the west after WW2 (as a consequence of events during WW2), except among some fringe groups.

KKK, neo Nazis, racists, etc weren't that fringe in the 40s, 50s, and 60s.

but whatever.
 
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