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Israel is under attack

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Mal thinks they're just conjuring up dead because he hasn't seen any mass grave.

We on the other hand see vids of extreme destruction and death every day.

Pretty much everyone, except Israel for very specific reasons, has been taking the health ministry numbers at face value by now.
Yes, but I would add they have takem HAMAS' Ministry of Health numbers at face value in an ignorant manner. There is zero evidence at all that any number at all is factual. HAMAS does not care at all about factuality.
 
You are running in circles around Collateral Damage but are doing so in a non sensical manner. No matter what facts I present you avoid them & worse yet, you now use the Semantics Card. Let us try a different way: Do you not understand that all armed conflicts produce Collateral Damage? That Israel is doing more than any military in history to minimise them? I already explained many of the steps taken by Israel. I have already explained the steps taken by HAMAS to maximise deaths in Gaza, that they have publicly admitted this more than once...Yet you return to the fact that Gazan civilains are killed...EXCEPT that you have yet to mitigate your wholesale criticism of Israel to discuss the causation for Israel's mere presence in Gaza.
Call it what it is, dead civilians. You're the one dancing around this collateral damage term, like a typical oorah army guy like it's not some bullshit "semantic" created solely to talk about dead innocents in an easier way.

I criticized them both. Ok cool, so let's just ignore ALL media, and death counts that currently exist, and just listen to what the Israeli government is telling us, that they're trying to minimize deaths. Ignore the (apparently phantom?) stack of bodies, and lay blame wholesale on Hamas, and not the people literally dropping the bombs.

Sorry to boil this down into a stupid metaphor, but it seems to be all I have to make a really simple point. If I pushed a child in front of me to avoid a punch, and the child gets punched, is the person throwing the punch not also to blame? Yeah, maybe they didn't mean to punch a child, but they're also just throwing punches around, and voila, conflict creates "collateral damage". It's still wrong that a child was punched, and both parties need to figure some shit out.

There could be some sort of ceasefire, but both parties seem to be bloodthirsty and ready to kill each other. That's really the only point I'm trying to make, like I said, it's pretty simple.

You may think I'm "blaming" Israel and I'm wrong, or whatever, and that's fine, but you are trying to basically absolve Israel from blame, and I'm saying that's incorrect, because massive amounts of people are dying at their hand. That can't be ignored. Hamas isn't doing the Palestinians any favors, but let's be real, all Abrahamic religions have played into this holy war bullshit.

But whatever man, if you can't get the simple point I was trying to make, and still wanna wrap me up with linguistics, have at it.
 
Sorry to boil this down into a stupid metaphor, but it seems to be all I have to make a really simple point. If I pushed a child in front of me to avoid a punch, and the child gets punched, is the person throwing the punch not also to blame? Yeah, maybe they didn't mean to punch a child, but they're also just throwing punches around, and voila, conflict creates "collateral damage". It's still wrong that a child was punched, and both parties need to figure some shit out.

uhhh no? If a person throws a punch at an adult and you push a child in front of them and they get hit, it's definitely not the fault of the person throwing the punch... very apt metaphor to describe Hamas btw... throwing children into danger.

There could be some sort of ceasefire, but both parties seem to be bloodthirsty and ready to kill each other. That's really the only point I'm trying to make, like I said, it's pretty simple.

it is extremely simple. Release the hostages and surrender. The (terrorists, rapists) Hamas could've done this at ANY point if they truly cared about their people.
 
uhhh no? If a person throws a punch at an adult and you push a child in front of them and they get hit, it's definitely not the fault of the person throwing the punch... very apt metaphor to describe Hamas btw... throwing children into danger.



it is extremely simple. Release the hostages and surrender. The (terrorists, rapists) Hamas could've done this at ANY point if they truly cared about their people.
I mean yeah if you are so worked up to hit someone that you hit a child, sorry it's your fault too.
 
Hit the child then go on to murder the child’s entire family is more like what’s happening
 
Israel is surrounded by people want them all dead, the fact that Israel has gone to such lengths to minimize collateral damage is mind boggling. Their neighbors would exterminate them if they could, it would be Holocaust 2.0.
I personally would inflict such an ass whooping on them that they would tremble at the site of IDF. I would not only avenge the dead I would unleash a bloodbath till the hostages were returned. Terrorists hide out and store weapons and ammo in hospitals, schools, mosques, ect... Then bye bye to them all. I would leave them with nothing. But the Israeli's are kinder, and more noble than me.
 
I think someone pointed out that the nation of Israel being as it is offers no 'defence in depth'. They cannot retreat, regroup and perform surgical strikes.

But I also know that Hamas and Fatah effectively installed a two party system in Palestine. Voters really had no options. But I value the life of each person equally. I just think the terrorists KNOW their is no surrender so they will fight. If they cared about the everyday people of Gaza, they wouldn't have used Gaza as the launch points for their attacks.

It's complex. Their is no right and wrong, merely the living and the dead.
 
That wouldn't hold up in a county court, let alone an international tribunal

your honor, I know my client pushed the child in front of the defendant's fist, but he shouldn't have been fighting in the first place! Ergo, he is guilty?

would this work the same, say if a fan runs into a UFC octagon and catches a flying knee? They can sue for damages I assume?
 
What international tribunal? Who cares, Israel has nukes and if worse comes to worse, they will use them. To quote a great American movie character " They drew first blood"
 
Call it what it is, dead civilians. You're the one dancing around this collateral damage term, like a typical oorah army guy like it's not some bullshit "semantic" created solely to talk about dead innocents in an easier way.

I criticized them both. Ok cool, so let's just ignore ALL media, and death counts that currently exist, and just listen to what the Israeli government is telling us, that they're trying to minimize deaths. Ignore the (apparently phantom?) stack of bodies, and lay blame wholesale on Hamas, and not the people literally dropping the bombs.

Sorry to boil this down into a stupid metaphor, but it seems to be all I have to make a really simple point. If I pushed a child in front of me to avoid a punch, and the child gets punched, is the person throwing the punch not also to blame? Yeah, maybe they didn't mean to punch a child, but they're also just throwing punches around, and voila, conflict creates "collateral damage". It's still wrong that a child was punched, and both parties need to figure some shit out.

There could be some sort of ceasefire, but both parties seem to be bloodthirsty and ready to kill each other. That's really the only point I'm trying to make, like I said, it's pretty simple.

You may think I'm "blaming" Israel and I'm wrong, or whatever, and that's fine, but you are trying to basically absolve Israel from blame, and I'm saying that's incorrect, because massive amounts of people are dying at their hand. That can't be ignored. Hamas isn't doing the Palestinians any favors, but let's be real, all Abrahamic religions have played into this holy war bullshit.

But whatever man, if you can't get the simple point I was trying to make, and still wanna wrap me up with linguistics, have at it.


No offence but there is nothing for me to work with in your first paragraph. I mean, if I did not know any better I might think that you are simply trying to Troll me. In case you are not, "Collateral Damage" simply refers to non combatants who die during the targetting of combatants. Your idea that labels do not matter? Correct labels exist to allow meaningful interaction. Your insistence that Collateral Damage merely describes dead civilains is non sensical as I have just explained. Circumstances matter very much.

Were Israel's goal to be the wanton killing of "innocent Gazans," Gaza is a tiny territory. It would take less than a day with merely conventional weapons, to exterminate every mammal in Gaza. Instead we now approach the 6th month in the present war. Why do you think that is?

Who said to ignore anything? I recommended that you & everyone else vet your sources of data. Taking HAMAS' figures at face value is insane. They have a vested interest in getting around the aforementioned causation, to turn the world's gaze away from the child rape of Israelis by Gazans on October 7th, 2023 & redirect it towards supposed IDF, INS & IAF atrocities. With you at least that endeavour has been entirely successful.

As for your metaphor? The one doing the punching only matters if they are doing so with a deliberare disregard for non combatant safety entirely. I have already explained AND proven that THAT is not the case in the least.

As for both parties needing to figure something out...Obviously no Gazan entity cares in the least about compromising, etc. so, is your view that with that being what it is, Israel should just take it on the chin & withdraw from Gaza?

Your "simple point" is childlike in its naivete. Peace requires two parties being equally committed to sit on their hands. Israel cannot do so as long as HAMAS et al are ready, willing & able to exterminate all Jews & destroy Israel.

Israel is a secular liberal democracy, not a Jewish Theocracy. Your imagining that all Abrahamic faiths are equally at fault is absurd. Where is the Jewish "Jihad?" Xtianity last saw theirs a thousand years ago ( or if referring to the Baltic Crusades, 500 years ago).

Then, your last comment... Yep, you are Trolling. Still, maybe others will benefit from factual explanations.
 
Israel is a secular liberal democracy, not a Jewish Theocracy. Your imagining that all Abrahamic faiths are equally at fault is absurd. Where is the Jewish "Jihad?" Xtianity last saw theirs a thousand years ago ( or if referring to the Baltic Crusades, 500 years ago).
Have you "read" the Old Testament? How do you think Israel got the land in the first place? They killed the other inhabitants and kicked them out.

Everyone that disagrees with you is trolling? Think what you want. You don't care to listen or hear anyone else, and that's fine.
 
Also, why does Israel refer to itself as a "Jewish and democratic" state, if it's so secular? Genuinely curious.

I mean, if we're able to reduce all of Islam into brutal homophobia and misogyny in this thread, basically call Islam a religion of rapists, make a bunch of disgusting, incorrect, and prejudiced claims, why don't we get down to where this all started?

It started with Israel making a claim on a land it did not own, proclaiming it their holy land, forcing the people out, and settling there. I don't care if someone doesn't believe this, this is what Israel believes. The modern state was founded as a place for Jews to safely live. I have no problem with that. But the problem is that a massive wave of people settled there, once again forcing the occupants of the land out. This creates problems.
 
you've just described all of human history
Ok? He asked when Israel or Judaism was involved in this "holy war bullshit" as I described it or crusades or whatever. I explained that all of it originated with that.
 
Ok? He asked when Israel or Judaism was involved in this "holy war bullshit" as I described it or crusades or whatever. I explained that all of it originated with that.

I think maybe he was referring to modern times.
 
where is the Jewish jihad?"
To those who genuinely think this started on October 7th, this has been going on for nearly 80 years.
Look at the Irgun, commanded by a man who would later become Prime Minister (Menachem Begin), and the Deir Yassin massacre they committed.
Please tell me who is defending themselves after reading this and the following post.

The Irgun (Hebrew: ארגון; full title: Hebrew: הארגון הצבאי הלאומי בארץ ישראל Hā-ʾIrgun Ha-Tzvaʾī Ha-Leūmī b-Ērētz Yiśrāʾel, lit. "The National Military Organization in the Land of Israel"), or Etzel (Hebrew: אצ"ל) (sometimes abbreviated IZL), was a Zionist paramilitary organization that operated in Mandatory Palestine between 1931 and 1948. It was an offshoot of the older and larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah (Hebrew: Hebrew: הגנה, Defence).[1] The Irgun has been viewed as a terrorist organization or organization which carried out terrorist acts.[2][3][4][5] [...] The Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom") party, which led to today's Likud party.

The Likud is the party that Israel's current PM, Netanyahu, belongs to.
The current PM belongs to a party that existed as a terrorist organization only decades ago.


The Deir Yassin massacre took place on April 9, 1948, when around 130[1] fighters from the Zionist paramilitary groups Irgun and Lehi killed at least 107 Palestinian Arab villagers, including women and children, in Deir Yassin, a village of roughly 600 people near Jerusalem, despite having earlier agreed to a peace pact.
[...]
A number of Palestinian Arab prisoners were executed, some after being paraded in West Jerusalem, where they were jeered, spat at, stoned, looted, and eventually murdered.[1][5][6] In addition to the killing and widespread looting, there may have been cases of mutilation and rape.

 
Next, we can look at the JDL and the several bombings they committed on US soil throughout the late-20th-century:

The Jewish Defense League (JDL) is a far-right religious and political organization in the United States and Canada. Its stated goal is to "protect Jews from antisemitism by whatever means necessary";[1] it has been classified as "right-wing terrorist group" by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) since 2001,[2] and is also designated as hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.[3] According to the FBI, the JDL has been involved in plotting and executing acts of terrorism within the United States.[2][4]

1970: On October 6, the JDL is suspected of bombing the New York office of the Palestine Liberation Organization after the PLO hijacked four airliners the previous month. United Press International reported that an anonymous caller phoned in about a half hour before the explosion and proclaimed the JDL slogan, "Never again."[45]

1971: On January 8, 1971, a bombing outside of the Soviet cultural center in Washington, D.C. was followed by a phone call including the JDL slogan "Never again." A JDL spokesperson denied the group's involvement in the bombing, but refused to condemn it.[1]

1972: In 1972, a smoke bomb was planted in the Manhattan office of music impresario Sol Hurok, who organized Soviet performers' U.S. tours. Iris Kones, a Jewish secretary from Long Island, died of smoke inhalation, and Hurok and 12 others were injured and hospitalized.[51] Jerome Zeller of the JDL was indicted for the bombing and Kahane later admitted his part in the attack.[28] JDL activities were condemned by Moscow refuseniks who felt that the group's actions were making it less likely that the Soviet Union would relax restrictions on Jewish emigration.

1984-1986: During the 1980s, past-JDL member Victor Vancier (who later founded the Jewish Task Force), and two other former JDL members were arrested in connection with six incidents: 1984 firebombing of an automobile at a Soviet diplomatic residence, the 1985 and 1986 pipe bombings of rival JDL members' cars, the 1986 firebombing at a hall where the Soviet State Symphony Orchestra was performing, and two 1986 detonations of tear gas grenades to protest performances by Soviet dance troupes.[1] In a 1984 interview, the JDL leader Meir Kahane admitted that the JDL "bombed the Russian mission in New York, the Russian cultural mission here [Washington] in 1971, the Soviet trade offices."[28][57] The attacks, which caused minor diplomatic crisis in relations between the U.S. and the USSR, prompted the New York City Police Department (NYPD) to infiltrate the group and one undercover officer discovered a chain of weapon caches across Brooklyn, containing "enough shotguns and rifles to arm a small militia."[51]

1985: On October 11, 1985, Alex Odeh, regional director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC), was killed in a mail bombing at his office in Santa Ana, California. Shortly before his killing, Odeh had appeared on the television show Nightline, where he engaged in a tense dialogue with a representative from the JDL. [...] Lane Bonner stated the FBI attributed the bombing and two others to the JDL. In February 1986, the FBI classified the bombing that killed Alex Odeh as a terrorist act. [...] He was subsequently found guilty of involvement in the killing of the secretary of computer firm ProWest, Patricia Wilkerson, in another, unrelated mail bomb blast. [...] In addition, he and other JDL members were also suspected in a string of other violent attacks through 1985, including the bombing of Boston ADC office that seriously injured two police officers, the bomb killing of suspected Nazi war criminal Tscherim Soobzokov in Paterson, New Jersey, and a bombing in Long Island

 
@mal3volent You're veering into the realm of genocide denial.

I've previously compared Gaza-hospital-provided numbers to the UN numbers and independent numbers with a margin of error of 0.5-3%.
Here is analysis from an individual far more credible than I am:

"Omar Shakir, the Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch, said he saw no evidence that the numbers were being manipulated.

“We have been monitoring human rights abuses in the Gaza Strip for three decades, including several rounds of hostilities. We’ve generally found the data that comes out of the ministry of health to be reliable,” he said.

“When we have done our own independent investigations around particular strikes, and we’ve compared those figures against those from the health ministry, there haven’t been major deviations."
 
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