Palestine discussion

[Oldskipper]

A stroll through Jewish Dublin – The Irish Story

Ironically, the area is now home to a large chunk of Dublins Islamic community

 

[deficiT]

It's officially recognised in my country and a handful of others a sovereign state. Palestinian flags are a common sight here, and always have been. That's not to say we're anti semitic, quite the opposite in fact. There was a Jewish 'quarter' for want of a better word in Dublin for a couple of centuries and the City Council and, to a lesser extent the tourist board promote this as an area of historical interest. Which it certainly is.

It tracks that Ireland would be more sympathetic to the plight of colonized countries, yeah.

 

[Oldskipper]

It tracks that Ireland would be more sympathetic to the plight of colonized countries, yeah.

Yep that's a big part of it, it's ingrained in the psyche. Since independence from the British empire we've basically been governed by a two party system, bitter enemies with long memories.
The only two things they ever agreed on are Palestinian sovereignty and more recently keeping Sinn Fein out of power, which is becoming an increasingly losing battle. The link I posted about Jewish Dublin is a good, albeit short read. A lot of people don't know that a former Israeli PM was a Dubliner, complete with the inner-city Dublin accent!

 

[Foreigner]

I don't see anyone here, and certainly not me, "cheering" for this. The conflict is horrible.

Choosing one side over the other is basically cheering (or cheering adjacent, whatever).

Not having an opinion on whether the conflict is right or wrong, or claiming some elevated neutral stance whereby you amazingly happen to be the correct one and the rest of us are the slavering masses, isn't brave or wise, it's just...not having an opinion for cynical reasons that are are a shit basis for decision making in our demanding and dynamic world.

I do have an opinion on the conflict. Both sides are wrong and are incapable of resolving it.

War is fucking awful and sometimes necessary. In this case, against genocidal jihadists, adopting a pacifist stance is weak and immoral. I think Israel are absolutely justified and obligated to do what they're doing, as horrible as it is. No nation can make peace with death worshipping fanatics that constantly attack and murder innocent their innocent civilians and whose religion says this is required to attain paradise.

So let's just burn down the whole house to get rid of some cockroaches. It's not like that'll create generations of fresh hatred or anything.

You may think you're too elite to take a side but just know, the Islamic fanatics have taken one and you're not on it. None of us really are.

Oh give it a rest. There are fanatics on both sides and the fact that you can't see that means you've got some pretty strong blinders on.

Wiping out Gaza is not going to eliminate Islamic fundamentalism, it will just create more. IMO the Hamas attack, which sacrificed a handful of jihadists, was wildly successful.

Until this conflict, Israel was running a pretty tight PR campaign. Now that's been blown out of the water.

And if Israel is so clean, then how do you explain the illegal settlements and expansionism?

An Israeli government official was just on the news yesterday saying that they won't stop until "greater Israel" is established, which includes Jordan, Iran, and parts of other countries in the Mid-east. Sure, she's just one voice... but these people are fucking zionist scumbags.

 

[Foreigner]

I don't know anyone with experience of war, but i can imagine that such people don't treat this war like a football game like many people do.

It's like Israel/Palestine became a forced choice of whether you prioritize Modernity vs Leftism. But no one has to make that choice in order to preserve any legitimacy on any account. Only fools play that game.

It's just another narrative that the western governments are using to keep their people divided. It's constant. First the vaccine thing, then the trans thing, now the Israel/Palestine thing. It's literally one thing after the other without any break in between.

My faith in humanity is very low these days. 90% of humanity is asleep at the wheel. Of the 10% remaining, 5% are doing good and 5% are doing evil and are using the other 90% in the fight.

 

[nepalnt21]

Both Israel and Hamas have committed war crimes

hamas bad, what's your point? that's a very easy position.

I expounded greatly.

gonna be honest, after our last few encounters i find it better for my blood pressure to avoid reading your posts... but aside from that little comment and another that i read thirty seconds ago and forgot (belgian strong dark ale), i think i agree with what you're saying.

i spotted that "war is bad" thing which is a common fallacious trope i see spat by ppl trying to excuse israel's war crimes... i mistakenly thought that was your position.

 

[swilow]

i spotted that "war is bad" thing which is a common fallacious trope i see spat by ppl trying to excuse israel's war crimes

How is "war is bad" fallacious?

I like your argumentation method which is to constantly regurgitate terms like "war crimes" or "ethnic cleansing" as if that makes it more true.

 

[swilow]

Choosing one side over the other is basically cheering (or cheering adjacent, whatever).

It feels pretty straw manny though. Anyone cheering on a war is monstrous and easier to dismiss.

I do have an opinion on the conflict. Both sides are wrong and are incapable of resolving it.

But in principle it could actually be resolved. I would put money on Israel literally accepting a non violent Gandhi like movement among Palestinians. I think this fair to say though that this won't ever happen while Palestinian identity is inextricably bound to being victims of Israel.

So let's just burn down the whole house to get rid of some cockroaches. It's not like that'll create generations of fresh hatred or anything.

Low expectations here speak volumes. But you're probably right. Still, the hatred replenishes itself each generation because Palestinians are taught to hate the Jews and their society rewards and honours those who committ massacres and martyr themselves.

Wiping out Gaza is not going to eliminate Islamic fundamentalism, it will just create more. IMO the Hamas attack, which sacrificed a handful of jihadists, was wildly successful.

It was definitely successful, I'm not quite following your point. But an extreme response, which we see from Israel, may make such attacks less sexy in the future. Of course, with minds mired in dogma and fundamentalist madness, imagining that rationality will prevail is wishful thinking.

 

[Foreigner]

It feels pretty straw manny though. Anyone cheering on a war is monstrous and easier to dismiss.

Let's revisit my original point, which was: anyone who cheers for one side in a war that they are not part of is lost.

If you were Israeli I could at least understand.

But in principle it could actually be resolved. I would put money on Israel literally accepting a non violent Gandhi like movement among Palestinians. I think this fair to say though that this won't ever happen while Palestinian identity is inextricably bound to being victims of Israel.

I honestly can't speak to what the Palestinian identity is at this point. AFAIK most of them are just fleeing for their lives and trying not to die.

That said, "in principle" there has never been a long-standing non-violent solution. There have only been half measures thanks to the incestuous relationship that Israel has with the US. There is so much more that could be done with a UN mandate but it's simply blocked.

Low expectations here speak volumes. But you're probably right. Still, the hatred replenishes itself each generation because Palestinians are taught to hate the Jews and their society rewards and honours those who committ massacres and martyr themselves.

Re: the part in bold, I don't see how you can possibly know that of millions of Palestinians. They voted for a Hamas government years ago and there has not been an election since. Considering that the Gaza strip has been ghettoized by Israel over the past 20 years or so, most are mainly concerned with survival.

You're implying a level of civic participation that is hard to exist in a people that is barely scraping by half the time.

I'm not saying there are zero jihadists in Palestine teaching their kids to carry the torch. I'm saying that you're dealing with an entire civilization, and that's complicated.

It was definitely successful, I'm not quite following your point. But an extreme response, which we see from Israel, may make such attacks less sexy in the future. Of course, with minds mired in dogma and fundamentalist madness, imagining that rationality will prevail is wishful thinking.

Ok then let me make my point crystal clear, which will be realpolitik and not partisan bullshit. Israel is a pro-expansionist, warhawk nation that has a jidahist problem hiding among a mostly benign civilian population living nextdoor to its planned settlements. It needs to get rid of them without rocking the humanitarian boat and it has tried many strategies over the years, in combination with cooperating with various international third parties. Israel also has an internally torn polity between moderates and modernists vs. warhawks and zionists. A zionist leader who has been found by the courts to be corrupt AF has benefited from the timing of a small scale jihadist attack, stoked by the momentary emotionality and brutality of civilian deaths, to go wipe out the "Gazan problem" once and for all, regardless of what the world thinks. They inform the US that unless they want to lose their leash on Iran, they will support or at least remain neutral in this conflict by ensuring that the UN does not get involved. One hand washes the other.

This is basically it. There's no way on god's green earth that Israel is going to eliminate all its enemies by demolishing Gaza. In fact, it just alienated all of the Arab moderates in the Mid-east who were working toward a peaceful compromise. All those journalists, aid workers, hospitals with children, neutral support workers that Israel blew up or shot dead "because terrorism"? Yeah, not a good look.

If you really think glassifying Gaza as a one-solution is really going to put an end to this, then you are way more partisan than I thought. History does not look kindly on wholesale slaughter. Don't forget that Israel is violating multiple international conventions on war with what it's doing. And we're supposed to give them carte blanche because "they've just put up with so much and look and what happened to those 100 civilians who got captured." It's against international law to indiscriminately kill civilians in war. That Israel has never been tried in court makes no difference. Everyone knows it.

Get real. Israel will finish destroying Gaza, will expand its settlements, will have a new border that will require a new neutral zone, and the process will repeat with new generations of jihadists vengefully attacking that new border, and we will rinse, lather, repeat. Israel will reach a "last straw" again, and will launch a new offensive "because terrorism," will glassify another region - maybe Jordan next time, who knows - and then expand again.

It doesn't look very self-defensive when every land you "rid of terrorists" you just so happen to colonize and refuse to give back to the civilians you robbed it from. There are billionaires sitting in Qatar funding Hamas. Iran is supporting Hamas with weapons and human resources. Russia is probably in the mix as well. If Israel really wants to "stop terrorism" it's not trying very hard. Wiping out Gaza is a short-sighted solution if stopping terrorism is the goal. But it isn't, not really. Israel wants land for its people. Period. The US will support this because its dog Israel will snuff out some thorns in its side in the process, and it will get to further expand "democratic infrastructure" to the Mid-east in exchange for its support.

Honestly, fuck Hamas and fuck Israel. They are both max fucked stone age savages. That whole region is occupied by political actors with the mindset of humans living 1000 years ago. And fuck the US for playing chess with this region like it does with so many countries.

 

[Foreigner]

hamas bad, what's your point? that's a very easy position.



gonna be honest, after our last few encounters i find it better for my blood pressure to avoid reading your posts... but aside from that little comment and another that i read thirty seconds ago and forgot (belgian strong dark ale), i think i agree with what you're saying.

i spotted that "war is bad" thing which is a common fallacious trope i see spat by ppl trying to excuse israel's war crimes... i mistakenly thought that was your position.

I think my response to swilow may satisfy you, unless you think it might risk raising your blood pressure.

I actually don't have my skin in this game. Responding to forum posts is a leisure activity for me, not life and death lol

 

[Mjäll]

I don't see anyone here, and certainly not me, "cheering" for this. The conflict is horrible.

Not having an opinion on whether the conflict is right or wrong, or claiming some elevated neutral stance whereby you amazingly happen to be the correct one and the rest of us are the slavering masses, isn't brave or wise, it's just...not having an opinion for cynical reasons that are are a shit basis for decision making in our demanding and dynamic world.

War is fucking awful and sometimes necessary. In this case, against genocidal jihadists, adopting a pacifist stance is weak and immoral. I think Israel are absolutely justified and obligated to do what they're doing, as horrible as it is. No nation can make peace with death worshipping fanatics that constantly attack and murder innocent their innocent civilians and whose religion says this is required to attain paradise.

You may think you're too elite to take a side but just know, the Islamic fanatics have taken one and you're not on it. None of us really are.

So you're entire point here is it's pretentious and elitist to not pick a side in a war. Even if you have no stake in the war. Even if you don't really know. As if there was no merit to witholding judgment. War-mongering, conflict-seeking-attitude in plain sight. I was too polite to call you out on this. It's actually baffling. You don't recognize taking a distance to both sides in a retarded religious war on the other side of the planet as a legitimate position.

I'm one of the people most intolerant of islam i know of. Yet i don't pick a side in this. Why does islam being evil shit automatically make Israel right? They put a nation in the middle of enemy territory for purely religious conservative reasons. That's begging for trouble. Beyond religious concerns, it would've been better for everyone if Israel didn't exist.

Also you've ignored important posts again. This means you have no good reply. You've lost it already.

"Cheering" is a great descriptor for people who pick sides in a horrible war seemingly at random just for the sake of polarization. No wonder it makes people uncomfortable.

Oh btw i wanna briefly allude to another post you conveniently ignored, in the other thread. Do you keep track? Do you understand that connection exists? Do you get why it's perfectly reasonable for westerners to want ALL of that shit at a distance?

 

[Foreigner]

So you're entire point here is it's pretentious and elitist to not pick a side in a war. Even if you have not stake in the war. Even if you don't really know. As if there was no merit to witholding judgment. War-mongering, conflict-seeking-attitude in plain sight. I was too polite to call you out on this. It's actually baffling. You don't recognize taking a distance to both sides in a retarded religious war on the other side of the planet as a legitimate position.

Partisans tend to call moderates/centrists "elitist" when we refuse to pick sides in barbaric conflicts because fundamentalism does not acknowledge neutrality. They don't acknowledge that not taking a position is a position.

As someone sitting comfortably in Canada, I don't have to choose, nor should I. I'm not a Palestinian or an Israeli. Frankly, I don't trust any of the power politics pertaining to these countries, not while the UN's hands are tied to render enforcement of its more objective resolutions. Hell, Israel refuses to even hold a cease fire... the most basic of compromises. It has already glassified most of Gaza and displaced millions, yet a cease fire is still not an option. Let that sink in.

I don't think Hamas gives two shits about the Palestinian people. They are nothing more than human shields to them. Israel is talking out of two-sides of its mouth on this point: they tried the Hamas fighters as non-state actor "terrorists" yet when the issue of Palestinian innocence is brought up, they claim that Hamas is their official government so they are actually fighting a nation. Yet Israel won't adhere to any war conventions. The world knows that Israel is unhinged right now. It's patently obvious. It's using the "fighting terrorism" excuse because it knew how well it worked for the US in invading the Mid-east to expand its interests.

Anyone with half a brain cell would recognize that Hamas and its ground support are all non-state actors. Hamas was elected in 2006 and their current iteration has zero to do with their original mandate. They do not speak for the Palestinian people. And yet Israel is punishing all of Palestine because of them. Hamas is no more a government than a terrorist represents a nation. These are all non-state actors and glassifying Gaza will not stop them because they are interspersed throughout the entire Mid-east nations. Israel destroying the whole to get rid of a part is a crime against humanity and also makes zero sense if the goal is to stop terrorism. Even the US had more discrimination when it entered Iraq and Afghanistan. Civilians were spared at all costs (mostly) while a painful ground war was fought. Israel is just butchering now, leveling Gaza because they want to expand their settlements. If it was actually about stopping terrorism, they would spend the next 20 years doing what the US just did in pursuit of terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq. They would enlist Palestinians in the fight, create positive incentives for cooperation with the IDF, have combined Palestinian/IDF teams, and fight a long, protracted, brutal ground war to kill terrorists one at a time.

But no, they just leveled all of Gaza, hospitals, schools, all of it. It's just the IDF vs. all of Palestine. Hamas has won the ideological war, as far as I'm concerned. Israel is totally out of control and it's on full display. I'm not saying that Hamas doesn't deserve it but millions of Palestinians sure don't.

 

[swilow]

anyone who cheers for one side in a war that they are not part of is lost.

I agree but speaking for myself, I'm not cheering for Israel. I just happen to think they're in the right, and there are no real other options available to them. But I'm not happy for this to be happening.

That said, "in principle" there has never been a long-standing non-violent solution. There have only been half measures thanks to the incestuous relationship that Israel has with the US. There is so much more that could be done with a UN mandate but it's simply blocked.

And yet it has been Palestinians that walked away from the Oslo Accords because the agreement, which gave them basically all of their territorial claims, didn't involve the right of return for the ever growing, 3rd and 4th generation "refugees" that UN policy creates. This is as unreasonable a claim as it would be for the settled Jewish ex refugees expelled, often violently, en masse from Arabic countries after the 1948 conflict.

I'm not saying Israel haven't played a part in perpetuating this conflict. But I do think the lions share sits with the utterly corrupt fools who represent the Palestinians.

You're implying a level of civic participation that is hard to exist in a people that is barely scraping by half the time.

It's not participation, but indoctrination. Surely you are aware of much of what is taught by UNRWA at Palestinian schools.

In recent polls, 80% of Gazans approved of the October 7th massacre. Around 40% support Hamas. That is not insignificant. Not advocating collective blame, but when 80% of 2.3million people in a society condone raping and burning people alive, something is massively wrong with that society. The thing that is wrong, imo, is not just Israel, but is the dominant ideology of the people.

Israel is a pro-expansionist, warhawk nation that has a jidahist problem hiding among a mostly benign civilian population living nextdoor to its planned settlements

See above. Mostly benign isn't accurate. Something like a thousand non-Hamas Gazan citizens spontaneously joined the massacre. Many thousands more cheered and spat on the lifeless corpses of young women being paraded through the streets.

zionist leader who has been found by the courts to be corrupt AF has benefited from the timing of a small scale jihadist attack, stoked by the momentary emotionality and brutality of civilian deaths, to go wipe out the "Gazan problem" once and for all, regardless of what the world thinks.

On this we agree. Netanyahu is a profoundly corrupt and truly dangerous leader. OTOH, calling the worst massacre on Jews since the Holocaust "small scale" is blatantly nonsensical.

I find it interesting that when challenged, you do clearly have a side you're favouring.

But I appreciate your views and theyve provided food for thought.

So you're entire point here is it's pretentious and elitist to not pick a side in a war.

My point was that you kept swanning into the thread telling all the participants they were stupid and that that was totally useless contribution.

Dude, it's not personal. I like you and enjoy many of your posts, here and in PD. I just felt like your repetitive output was mediocre at best. I'm not telling you to stop, just telling you what I thought of it. Do what you want.

Why does islam being evil shit automatically make Israel right?

That's not what I'm saying. I've spent thousands of words explaining why I think Israel are acting as ethically as one can when at war.

Also you've ignored important posts again. This means you have no good reply. You've lost it already.

I've had something like 7 or 8 people telling me I'm a warmonger or genocide excuser. I can't respond to everything. But also, I ignored many of your posts because they were largely the same nonsense telling everyone how stupid they were.

"Cheering" is a great descriptor for people who pick sides in a horrible war seemingly at random just for the sake of polarization.

I think you must be ignoring my posts if you believe im adopting my stance for "the sake of polarisation" whatever that is. The fault is mine if I'm not conveying my arguments well but tbc I'm saying what I'm saying because I believe I'm correct.

I'm not blindly picking a side, I've examined the issue as best I can and believe Israel is correct

Oh btw i wanna briefly allude to another post you conveniently ignored, in the other thread.

Again, see above. I don't know what post you're talking about.

 

[Mjäll]

I agree but speaking for myself, I'm not cheering for Israel. I just happen to think they're in the right, and there are no real other options available to them. But I'm not happy for this to be happening.



And yet it has been Palestinians that walked away from the Oslo Accords because the agreement, which gave them basically all of their territorial claims, didn't involve the right of return for the ever growing, 3rd and 4th generation "refugees" that UN policy creates. This is as unreasonable a claim as it would be for the settled Jewish ex refugees expelled, often violently, en masse from Arabic countries after the 1948 conflict.

I'm not saying Israel haven't played a part in perpetuating this conflict. But I do think the lions share sits with the utterly corrupt fools who represent the Palestinians.



It's not participation, but indoctrination. Surely you are aware of much of what is taught by UNRWA at Palestinian schools.

In recent polls, 80% of Gazans approved of the October 7th massacre. Around 40% support Hamas. That is not insignificant. Not advocating collective blame, but when 80% of 2.3million people in a society condone raping and burning people alive, something is massively wrong with that society. The thing that is wrong, imo, is not just Israel, but is the dominant ideology of the people.


See above. Mostly benign isn't accurate. Something like a thousand non-Hamas Gazan citizens spontaneously joined the massacre. Many thousands more cheered and spat on the lifeless corpses of young women being paraded through the streets.


On this we agree. Netanyahu is a profoundly corrupt and truly dangerous leader. OTOH, calling the worst massacre on Jews since the Holocaust "small scale" is blatantly nonsensical.

I find it interesting that when challenged, you do clearly have a side you're favouring.

But I appreciate your views and theyve provided food for thought.



My point was that you kept swanning into the thread telling all the participants they were stupid and that that was totally useless contribution.

Dude, it's not personal. I like you and enjoy many of your posts, here and in PD. I just felt like your repetitive output was mediocre at best. I'm not telling you to stop, just telling you what I thought of it. Do what you want.



That's not what I'm saying. I've spent thousands of words explaining why I think Israel are acting as ethically as one can when at war.



I've had something like 7 or 8 people telling me I'm a warmonger or genocide excuser. I can't respond to everything. But also, I ignored many of your posts because they were largely the same nonsense telling everyone how stupid they were.



I think you must be ignoring my posts if you believe im adopting my stance for "the sake of polarisation" whatever that is. The fault is mine if I'm not conveying my arguments well but tbc I'm saying what I'm saying because I believe I'm correct.

I'm not blindly picking a side, I've examined the issue as best I can and believe Israel is correct



Again, see above. I don't know what post you're talking about.

Your reply to Foreigner can't have been about me. Why make your general stance on non-partisans a personal thing about me? Your own opinion about non-partisans can't fall back on a hazy feeling that i'm repeating myself in this thread - which i'm not even doing, no more than any of you partisans also repeating your talking points. I may be using a slightly edgy rhetoric to catch attention and force you guys to deal with the non-partisan position.

Okay, i'm talking about a 37 second video. Watching it isn't even necessary. The takeaway (to expound a bit) is just the simple point that jewish associations are advocating "multiculturalism" and mass muslim immigration to Europe. And Israel is of course the paramount expression of judaism. This complicates the matter from a western perspective. I'm not saying all jews are for this, but aligning with a doctrine comes with a factor of responsibility.

Btw i also respect you in other areas. So there's no hard feelings really. I just have a really strong opinion about not taking a side here.

 

[DesertHarp]

I'm just saying the spread of Islam to Judaism and saying in relative terms, the two are incomparable. Islam has spread to become the majority religion in 49 countries. It isn't a missionary religion like Christianity, it is a militant ideology that spreads, as per the divinely revealed commandments of God, by the sword. Zionism, as enunciated by the likes of Theodor Herzl, was more a nationalist movement that had as its primary focus, territory it claimed as its rightful heritage.

I'm not denying that the Jews took territory from the Arabs btw. Just nothing like that taken by Muslims, who continue this conversion by conquest in many areas of the world and which is a threat to every country it enters. Hence we get Islamic terrorism basically everywhere there are Muslims and, despite there being Jewish communities all across the world, we do not get Jewish terrorists.

I'm just saying the spread of Islam to Judaism and saying in relative terms, the two are incomparable. Islam has spread to become the majority religion in 49 countries. It isn't a missionary religion like Christianity, it is a militant ideology that spreads, as per the divinely revealed commandments of God, by the sword. Zionism, as enunciated by the likes of Theodor Herzl, was more a nationalist movement that had as its primary focus, territory it claimed as its rightful heritage.

I'm not denying that the Jews took territory from the Arabs btw. Just nothing like that taken by Muslims, who continue this conversion by conquest in many areas of the world and which is a threat to every country it enters. Hence we get Islamic terrorism basically everywhere there are Muslims and, despite there being Jewish communities all across the world, we do not get Jewish terrorists.

When the Spanish conquistadors came to the Americas, they converted indigeous people to Christianity. They didn't hand out polite invitations to the Indians, offering them the choice of becoming Catholic, if they so desired. The Spaniards converted people forcefully. They enslaved the natives and forced them to build churches that still stand today.

In Europe, the Reformation split Christianity into various factions. Those factions tried to cancel each other out in very bloody conflicts. The pilgrims who came over to North America on the Mayflower were escaping persecution by other Christians. Think of the Inquisition. Consider how "heretics" were tortured and burned at the stake by other Christians. Catholics and Protestants slaughtered each other all over Europe in the name of religion. Christian imperialists went into Africa and brutalized the natives. In the Congo, Christians from Belgium cut off the hands of Blacks who disobeyed them.

"Claiming territory" doesn't automatically make it one's own. Zionists do "claim" Palestine as their "rightful heritage." I suppose the Mohawk indians could claim New York State as their rightful heritage. Imagine if the Innuit people demanded that white settlers leave Alaska because it is the rightful heritage of those native to the area.

DNA studies have concluded that the "Arabs" of Palestine are at least partially descended from those ancient Jews who never left the Levant. What are we to say about their "rightful heritage?"

 

[mal3volent]

Choosing one side over the other is basically cheering (or cheering adjacent, whatever).



I do have an opinion on the conflict. Both sides are wrong and are incapable of resolving it.



So let's just burn down the whole house to get rid of some cockroaches. It's not like that'll create generations of fresh hatred or anything.



Oh give it a rest. There are fanatics on both sides and the fact that you can't see that means you've got some pretty strong blinders on.

Wiping out Gaza is not going to eliminate Islamic fundamentalism, it will just create more. IMO the Hamas attack, which sacrificed a handful of jihadists, was wildly successful.

Until this conflict, Israel was running a pretty tight PR campaign. Now that's been blown out of the water.

And if Israel is so clean, then how do you explain the illegal settlements and expansionism?

An Israeli government official was just on the news yesterday saying that they won't stop until "greater Israel" is established, which includes Jordan, Iran, and parts of other countries in the Mid-east. Sure, she's just one voice... but these people are fucking zionist scumbags.

yeah you are totally impartial on this subject. No cheering for you.

 

[Foreigner]

I agree but speaking for myself, I'm not cheering for Israel. I just happen to think they're in the right, and there are no real other options available to them. But I'm not happy for this to be happening.

Yes you are cheering. Just like I am elitist for not choosing a side. See what I did there?

And yet it has been Palestinians that walked away from the Oslo Accords because the agreement, which gave them basically all of their territorial claims, didn't involve the right of return for the ever growing, 3rd and 4th generation "refugees" that UN policy creates. This is as unreasonable a claim as it would be for the settled Jewish ex refugees expelled, often violently, en masse from Arabic countries after the 1948 conflict.

Yes, both sides are incredibly flawed. This point illustrates that further.

I'm not saying Israel haven't played a part in perpetuating this conflict. But I do think the lions share sits with the utterly corrupt fools who represent the Palestinians.

So let's just glassify their failed civilization.

It's not participation, but indoctrination. Surely you are aware of much of what is taught by UNRWA at Palestinian schools.

In recent polls, 80% of Gazans approved of the October 7th massacre. Around 40% support Hamas. That is not insignificant. Not advocating collective blame, but when 80% of 2.3million people in a society condone raping and burning people alive, something is massively wrong with that society. The thing that is wrong, imo, is not just Israel, but is the dominant ideology of the people.

Polls are based on population samples, and who knows how the questions are being asked. I did political polling for two years in university. Besides which, you can't possibly draw conclusions about millions of people from a population sample.

Again, I'm not seeing this as evidence for why glassifying their civilization or violating international law is somehow justified?

See above. Mostly benign isn't accurate. Something like a thousand non-Hamas Gazan citizens spontaneously joined the massacre. Many thousands more cheered and spat on the lifeless corpses of young women being paraded through the streets.

I wouldn't know, I wasn't there. Neither were you.

On this we agree. Netanyahu is a profoundly corrupt and truly dangerous leader. OTOH, calling the worst massacre on Jews since the Holocaust "small scale" is blatantly nonsensical.

I think even bringing up the holocaust is extremely distasteful. This is a conflict between two nations that are at war, it's not civilian being captured and sent to crematoriums. People die in war and it's terrible.

I'm sick of the holocaust being invoked anytime Israel is attacked. ~1,110 civilians died on Oct 7 compared to what... 20,000 Palestinians?

It's super ironic that Israel is cleansing an entire region wholesale in violation of international law yet we are supposed to recall the holocaust whenever a Jew in Israel is killed by an Arab.

Make it make sense.

I find it interesting that when challenged, you do clearly have a side you're favouring.

That's not true. I'm a moderate/centrist. If you throw me into a pit of pro-Israelis I will try to balance them by pointing out the wrongs Israel has done, and vice versa if you tossed me into a pit of pro-Hamas or pro-Palestine folks. People often confuse moderates for partisans when we challenge their opinions. I'm not being contrarian I am just trying to help to paint a more complete picture.

I made it very clear that I find both sides distasteful. No matter how many wrongs you bring up about one side the scales will never be balanced because the other side is guilty of its own major atrocities.

If you put a gun to my head and told me to blame a side, I would blame the US. It's their fault that there is no sane international intervention. There should be UN peace keepers in there and neutral forces because to keep these two child-like civilizations separated.

 

[Foreigner]

yeah you are totally impartial on this subject. No cheering for you.

Nice drive by. Care to elaborate or are you just here to fire pot shots?

 

[Oldskipper]

Just gonna throw the cat amongst the pigeons here... is it just me that wonders that the current situation in Palestine has taken the focus off the much more serious conflict in Ukraine? The media seem to have swept that under the carpet. Anyone agree?

 

[DesertHarp]

Just gonna throw the cat amongst the pigeons here... is it just me that wonders that the current situation in Palestine has taken the focus off the much more serious conflict in Ukraine? The media seem to have swept that under the carpet. Anyone agree?

Haven't you heard the news? - Russia lost. At least that's what mainstream American television announces every second day.

I've heard a rumor that Ukraine is drafting teens, old men and women . . .so Russia better look out now.