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Palestine discussion

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It is classic ethnic cleansing
indeed. at this point, if you deny it (even with silly semantics protests), you're either uninformed or lying.

idf: "go south"

palestinians go south.

idf: "bombs awayyyyy"

the name of the game is push them against a wall (against the egyptian border, against the sinai desert), and either pick em off like fish in a barrel, or find a way to shove them out into the desert to die. and that's only after the war of attrition.
 
indeed. at this point, if you deny it (even with silly semantics protests), you're either uninformed or lying.

idf: "go south"

palestinians go south.

idf: "bombs awayyyyy"

the name of the game is push them against a wall (against the egyptian border, against the sinai desert), and either pick em off like fish in a barrel, or find a way to shove them out into the desert to die. and that's only after the war of attrition.

That's pretty much how I see it. That southern border of Gaza is the only part of Gaza's border that does not have Israel on the other side of it. So that's why the IDF has herded Gaza's inhabitants southward, up against that border. It has known all along that Egypt is not interested in taking in Palestinian refugees, but it is creating so much pressure against that border that, maybe, it will simply burst.

Back in 2008, Hamas managed to blow up part of the wall along that southern border. This was followed by hundreds of thousands of Gazans rushing through into Egypt. I suspect that Israel is betting on this happening again. They are doing everything to cause a build up of pressure that could lead to another rupturing of the border in Rafah. That would then put Egypt in the position of having to make a choice: they could either let the Gazans pour through, or they could start slaughtering them. The Egyptian government might be up for trying to forcibly prevent Gazans from crossing the border. They've done that before. But what could they do in the face of over a million human beings crashing through the border at Ramah? The people of Egypt are not going to countenance their government machine gunning a million fellow Muslims who are starving and defenseless. Israel won't care which option Egypt chooses. Israel just wants to eventually flush Gazans through that border crossing, which will mean they have left Palestine. That's the goal. Then Egypt can do with them whatever the hell it wants. Israel won't give a damn. Netanyahu probably has stockpiles of tents he'll gladly send to Egypt to be set up in the Sinai Desert.
 
israel is so damned evil
It is very hard to argue against that at the moment . . . though there are many who do. As you referenced above, some commentators want to argue the semantics of defining "genocide." That's why I don't use that term. I would agree that those arguments get silly. I focus on the facts: Nearly 30,000 Palestinians killed, with thousands more missing and, most likely, dead. A huge proportion of those numbers are women and children. They've been killed like ducks in a barrel, with the barrel shrinking in size every day. Israel wants them out of Palestine. So it rains down so much horror that the million plus Palestinians in Rafah are very likely to burst thru that border wall into Egypt. That's the IDF goal: to get them o u t. Egypt is building a reinforcing wall on their side of the border because they do not want these people pouring thru as refugees. At the same time, Egypt is also building a massive shelter to contain any that get thru. I'm wondering if Israel and the U.S. are not making a secret deal with Egypt to simply accept these people in exchange for a big pot of cash.
 
I just looked for evidence supporting my last sentence in the post above. Not hard to find! Rep. Joe Wilson (Republican) has proposed that the U.S. cut off financial aid to Egypt, unless it agrees to accept a million Palestinian refugees from Gaza. Egypt gets well over a billion dollars annually from the U.S. in financial aid. I predict that at least a million Gazans will be flushed thru Rafah into Egypt before the summer of 2024. Within 2 years, I expect to see Israel building Jewish settlements in Gaza.
 
Egypt, unless it agrees to accept a million Palestinian refugees
aka it agrees to assist israel in ethnic cleansing. this will not be forgotten. the msm might forget, in fact most t.v. msm outlets have been trying their hardest to deflect and ignore it... but ppl aren't gonna just forget this is happening.

Israel building Jewish settlements in Gaza
yeah, they already put up flags in north gaza... it's plain, easy to see (except for those that deny reality) ethnic cleansing.

and we will see (in a couple years) if the icj decides that it's genocide (under international law, it seems to my eyes that it is by definition genocide)
 
aka it agrees to assist israel in ethnic cleansing. this will not be forgotten. the msm might forget, in fact most t.v. msm outlets have been trying their hardest to deflect and ignore it... but ppl aren't gonna just forget this is happening.


yeah, they already put up flags in north gaza... it's plain, easy to see (except for those that deny reality) ethnic cleansing.

and we will see (in a couple years) if the icj decides that it's genocide (under international law, it seems to my eyes that it is by definition genocide)

The government in Cairo does not want to seem to be assisting Israel. So they keep saying they absolutely will not take in refugees. Meanwhile, they've got construction crews out in Sinai, near the border, building a massive shelter for displaced humans. I think a deal has already been made that they aren't telling us about. I think Egypt has already let it be known that they will accommodate refugees. But they have to appear as though that was forced on them. So that means the Gazans have to be seen as forcing their way through the border crossing. To get them to do that may mean that the IDF plans to terrorize them even worse. Plus hunger is becoming a real issue. We just have no idea what the leaders of these countries are telling each other.
 
There are many who claim that Palestine has right to the land because they were there first. I am curious about a few detail concerning the nation of Palestine.

If 'Palestine' is a country, we should be able to answer a few basic questions:


1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What was its underlying economy What did it produce and who did they trade with?
6. What form did its government have?
7. Can you name at least one 'Palestinian' leader before Arafat?
8. Was 'Palestine' ever recognized by a country whose existence, at one time or another, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the 'State of Palestine'?
10. What was the most common religion in the 'State of Palestine'?
11. What was the name of its currency?
12. Choose any date - what was the approximate exchange rate of the 'Palestinian' currency against the U.S. dollar, German euro, British pound, Japanese yen or Chinese yuan?
13. Since there is no such country today, what caused its destruction and when did it happen?
14. If we mourn the "slow decline" of the “former proud” country." When exactly was this "state" proud and what was it proud about?
15. Are the "Palestinians" something other than generic Arabs gathered from everywhere or thrown out of the Arab world?
16. Do they really have a genuinely unique ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination?

I love your post. I want to assure everyone here that I am *NOT* an expert on Palestine, and know very little about it. Still, I feel that I've read about it much more than about anyone else here. To be clear I know little about it, though.

If anything I think that I have the advantage in that since I read about it in the Beforetimes, I had access to better information that people do now because what little information I have is based upon the writings of historians. By contrast, most people on Bluelight will not have been able to find Palestine on a map before this phase of the Continual War. Ergot most of what they know about the region will have been written by *journalists*, not by historians. In other words, most people have zero access to reasonable information about Palestine. Search engines are no help, they're flooded with people's blogs, usually written by hotheads.

So I want to devote some space to correcting the most common and most glaring of misperceptions.

  • In a sense, there is no such thing as a Palestinian. Palestinians are a type of Egyptian.
  • Egyptians hate Palestinians more than about anyone else does, Egyptians consider Palestinians to be pretty much the worst type of Egyptian.
  • Palestinians and Samaritans and Jews all pretty much arrived in that area around the same time and all claim to have common ancestry. Meaning that it is difficult to mount an argument that one side got there before the others that doesn't sound more laughable than plausible.
  • Many Palestinians are culturally Jewish, meaning they reject the beliefs of their suburban neighbors and have voluntarily taken advantage of Israeli resettlement programs and moved into the city. They speak Hebrew and their kids go to Jewish schools. I have not seen their views represented in the media, ever.
  • While Palestinian Arabs are indeed native to the area, they are "native to the area" to the same extent that they are native to the entire Arabian penninsula, a vast and generally empty space with strong farming potential. They were not traditionally camped outside of Jerselum, for example. Migratory in nature.

But the most laughable fiction published about the Palestinians, the one that best serves as an indicator that an author has no comprehension of the subject and is merely another reactionary, is the fiction that Muslims and Jews are traditional enemies. Muslims and Jews cohabited the middle east for about a thousand years of relative indifference. The first time that Jews and Muslims interacted with a level of complexity that would require anything like the label of "race relations," was when Muslims bailed Jews out of the Spanish Inquisition. His Majesty the Sultan was of the opinion that Jews were hard workers so he deliberately imported them into the Muslim Empire.

This marked the begining of a period of some 500 years alliance between Muslims and Jews. Muslims and Jews fought failthfully on the same side during World War I, for example. Trouble only really started in like the 1950's. So Jews and Arabs have been at war for less than a hundred years. Certainly not ancient enemies.

I want to thank you again for your excellent and high quality post. It is a shame that most laymen participating in these discussions say things and seem to hold points of view that generally fan the flames of conflict rather than pacify.
 
I love your post. I want to assure everyone here that I am *NOT* an expert on Palestine, and know very little about it. Still, I feel that I've read about it much more than about anyone else here. To be clear I know little about it, though.

If anything I think that I have the advantage in that since I read about it in the Beforetimes, I had access to better information that people do now because what little information I have is based upon the writings of historians. By contrast, most people on Bluelight will not have been able to find Palestine on a map before this phase of the Continual War. Ergot most of what they know about the region will have been written by *journalists*, not by historians. In other words, most people have zero access to reasonable information about Palestine. Search engines are no help, they're flooded with people's blogs, usually written by hotheads.

So I want to devote some space to correcting the most common and most glaring of misperceptions.

  • In a sense, there is no such thing as a Palestinian. Palestinians are a type of Egyptian.
  • Egyptians hate Palestinians more than about anyone else does, Egyptians consider Palestinians to be pretty much the worst type of Egyptian.
  • Palestinians and Samaritans and Jews all pretty much arrived in that area around the same time and all claim to have common ancestry. Meaning that it is difficult to mount an argument that one side got there before the others that doesn't sound more laughable than plausible.
  • Many Palestinians are culturally Jewish, meaning they reject the beliefs of their suburban neighbors and have voluntarily taken advantage of Israeli resettlement programs and moved into the city. They speak Hebrew and their kids go to Jewish schools. I have not seen their views represented in the media, ever.
  • While Palestinian Arabs are indeed native to the area, they are "native to the area" to the same extent that they are native to the entire Arabian penninsula, a vast and generally empty space with strong farming potential. They were not traditionally camped outside of Jerselum, for example. Migratory in nature.

But the most laughable fiction published about the Palestinians, the one that best serves as an indicator that an author has no comprehension of the subject and is merely another reactionary, is the fiction that Muslims and Jews are traditional enemies. Muslims and Jews cohabited the middle east for about a thousand years of relative indifference. The first time that Jews and Muslims interacted with a level of complexity that would require anything like the label of "race relations," was when Muslims bailed Jews out of the Spanish Inquisition. His Majesty the Sultan was of the opinion that Jews were hard workers so he deliberately imported them into the Muslim Empire.

This marked the begining of a period of some 500 years alliance between Muslims and Jews. Muslims and Jews fought failthfully on the same side during World War I, for example. Trouble only really started in like the 1950's. So Jews and Arabs have been at war for less than a hundred years. Certainly not ancient enemies.

I want to thank you again for your excellent and high quality post. It is a shame that most laymen participating in these discussions say things and seem to hold points of view that generally fan the flames of conflict rather than pacify.
Thank you @gordonliddy
 
how does any of that pertain to whether or not israel has the right to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity?
 
believe it or not, palestinians are thinking quite a lot about the things israel is doing to them.
That is not the topic of this thread. Please re-read Post # 1 and stick to the topic. If you wish to discuss how Palestinians feel about the current conflict and/or how you feel about the causes, please start another thread.

Thanks
 
this would be the only thread in which we all worked really hard to stick to the exact topic that the op prescribes, no tangents allowed. why would this be the one thread we need to?

especially when the original post is implied based on a fallacious line of reasoning.
 
this would be the only thread in which we all worked really hard to stick to the exact topic that the op prescribes, no tangents allowed. why would this be the one thread we need to?

especially when the original post is implied based on a fallacious line of reasoning.
Because you were asked politely to stick to the topic. Is that too much to ask from you?
 
There are many who claim that Palestine has right to the land because they were there first. I am curious about a few detail concerning the nation of Palestine.

If 'Palestine' is a country, we should be able to answer a few basic questions:


1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What was its underlying economy What did it produce and who did they trade with?
6. What form did its government have?
7. Can you name at least one 'Palestinian' leader before Arafat?
8. Was 'Palestine' ever recognized by a country whose existence, at one time or another, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the 'State of Palestine'?
10. What was the most common religion in the 'State of Palestine'?
11. What was the name of its currency?
12. Choose any date - what was the approximate exchange rate of the 'Palestinian' currency against the U.S. dollar, German euro, British pound, Japanese yen or Chinese yuan?
13. Since there is no such country today, what caused its destruction and when did it happen?
14. If we mourn the "slow decline" of the “former proud” country." When exactly was this "state" proud and what was it proud about?
15. Are the "Palestinians" something other than generic Arabs gathered from everywhere or thrown out of the Arab world?
16. Do they really have a genuinely unique ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination?

I don't see where most Canadians are much different from most Americans. Maybe the United States should annex Canada. After all, most Canadians are basically generic white people whose forebears came from all over. I don't see where they have a unique ethnic identity that's different from people living in, say, Vermont. (Of course, that would not apply to the Canadian French or the First Nations, who might need to opt out of the annexation.)

Canadians speak the same language, as we speak in the U.S. (except for the odd "eh" here and there.) They copied our money system, with their nickles often showing up in our cash registers.

Perhaps, the U.S. should expel all Latinos to a region in the Sonoran Desert that could be walled off and ceded back to Mexico. Then the Anglophone U.S. could be amalgamated with Anglophone Canada. Then highly talented Canadian singers, comedians and actors wouldn't have to cross an international border to make the big money.

Let's face it - there is no discernible ethnic distinction between Dana Carvey and Mike Myers. Well, except when Myers postures as a Scotsman. So he might need to opt out and get extradited to Britain.

Just a thought.
 
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believe it or not, palestinians are thinking quite a lot about the things israel is doing to them.
Of course. And I've certainly been guilty of pulling this thread off topic but just wanted to interrupt what was likely to be a continuation of the Israel attack thread. Something of a reminder to us all.

I guess I'll ask- do you think israel have a right to land in the area, or is the Palestinian claim stronger?
 
you mean in gaza? or in the west bank?

u talkin a plot of land that has been in a (for example) palestinian family for generations? or the house down the street that the new yorker came and bulldozed after he decided it was ok for him to (illegally) settle (the same property repurposed for a subdivision which now has american, swedish, etc. ppl living there...)?
 
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