What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[ThreePointCircle]

Hey man, I've spoken a fair bit about it because I just do not get the whole losing the magic thing. I took MDMA 21 years ago for the first time, and I still absolutely love it.

I will say that what I've had was incredibly euphoric and a quality experience, last night.

@F.U.B.A.R. - Do you tend to find the pure white crystal stuff to be "proper" over the tan iirc?

To be fair, I absolutely always get pure white crystal MDMA. I consider that to be literally the cleanest, as in well washed, and the purist, that you can really find.

Cool. Glad you had a great experience. Will trawl the markets and hopefully come across the vendor

 

[ageingpartyfiend]

Hey man, I've spoken a fair bit about it because I just do not get the whole losing the magic thing. I took MDMA 21 years ago for the first time, and I still absolutely love it.

I will say that what I've had was incredibly euphoric and a quality experience, last night.

@F.U.B.A.R. - Do you tend to find the pure white crystal stuff to be "proper" over the tan iirc?

To be fair, I absolutely always get pure white crystal MDMA. I consider that to be literally the cleanest, as in well washed, and the purist, that you can really find.

is that the white canadian mdma you're referring to as incredibly euphoric?

I have a friend who really knows the score tell me recently how much they rated some canadian mdma they had last year

 

[Tranced]

is that the white canadian mdma you're referring to as incredibly euphoric?

I have a friend who really knows the score tell me recently how much they rated some canadian mdma they had last year

No, just to clarify my benzo guy started selling cola mdma, and I asked him why it was Canadian and he literally just said its not; its the moonrocks which are canadian.

I have absolutely no idea what moonrocks are! Sorry for the confusion.

I believe the stuff my friend has, which i bought some of and posted about, to probably be the "proper" stuff. Last night was incredibly euphoric... and tonight, too.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Rolling two nights in a row? 👁👁

 

[Tranced]

Fuck yeah I am!!

 

[rustbeltgoldenchild]

Generally no, not really but there is typically some small loss of coordination for me. It doesn't make me dizzy, per se, but it does make my movements a little off-kilter and I tend to be about 10% less confident if I'm out somewhere dancing. @SpiralusSancti has it right, and I agree: "I'm not sure dizzy is the right word". Perhaps light ataxia? Idk.

The cure for this, of course, is dosing LSD, which gives my dancing confidence a +10% boost in the ~100 - 300 µg range. After that: all bets are off.

Ketamine, on the other hand, can give me the spins.


Are you arguing otherwise? Crystals are no longer formed when they are dissolved in water. You cannot have any polymorphs, or any crystal form whatsoever, if they are dissolved in solution. When a compound dissolves, its individual molecules or ions become uniformly distributed in the solution. The specific crystal structure is no longer relevant as the substance is now in a molecular or ionic form dispersed throughout the solvent.

However, crystal polymorphism can affect the dissolution rate of a compound. Different crystal forms may dissolve at different rates due to variations in surface area or crystal lattice energy. This could lead to slightly different dissolution profiles, but once fully dissolved, the compound behaves the same regardless of its previous crystal form.

In practical terms, for many applications, what matters most is the stability of the compound rather than its solubility w/r/t crystal polymorphism. This is how it affects the pharmaceutical industry in terms of drug patents.

While there are polymorphic forms of some drugs that can affect their pharmacodynamics, MDMA generally exists as a racemic mixture, and polymorphism probably does not play a significant role in its effects. I think what you're referring to is how the bioavailability of certain compounds can be negatively impacted if one of its polymorphs is resistant to dissolution in the body. The rate at which this occurs can affect things sometimes, though generally I don't think this is the case with hydrophilic compounds like methamphetamine.hcl and 3,4-MDMA.hcl, both of which rapidly and copiously dissolve in H₂O. The primary factors influencing MDMA's pharmacodynamics are dosage, individual differences in enzyme profile, and external factors like environment and mindset, as you know.

Check this out. You might find this interesting ☞ Clinical pharmacology of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, "ecstasy"): the influence of gender and genetics (CYP2D6, COMT, 5-HTT)

Of relevance to the discussion: MDMA, methamphetamine, and CYP2D6 pharmacogenetics: what is clinically relevant? To wit: "The fraction of metabolic clearance regulated by CYP2D6 for both drugs is substantially lower than expected from in vitro studies. Other isoenzymes of cytochrome P450 and a relevant contribution of renal excretion play a part in their clearance. These facts tune down the potential contribution of CYP2D6 polymorphism in the clinical outcomes of both substances. Globally, the clinical relevance of CYP2D6 polymorphism is lower than that predicted by in vitro studies."

I feel so seen finally coming across someone that also has trouble dancing on mdma. For me tho LSD makes it just as hard tho. The main thing is I can't just turn my head off and wiggle like I can sober or drinking. I'm too busy being aware of all the different actions my body is doing to wiggle.

Then I start wondering if the people around me can tell that I'm thinking way too hard, etc, etc. Not willing to blame it on a batch because it's almost everytime I roll.

 

[unodelacosa]

I feel so seen finally coming across someone that also has trouble dancing on mdma.

My theory is this: for people who are a bit too self-conscious to dance freely when they're in public, I think MDMA removes this inhibition for them and allows them to dance openly, even if a bit off-balance, and it feels freeing. To ppl like me, perhaps you as well, I love to dance to everything from Disco and House music to Salsa and Merengue to Hip-Hop and Drum'n'Bass to Dance Hall and Reggaeton, etc. But mild ataxia accompanies MDMA use, especially on heavier doses, which for me, slightly impairs my ability to dance like I normally can. I still bust a move anyways, I just won't try anything too extra, lol

Fuck yeah I am!!

Fuck yeah you are

is that the white canadian mdma you're referring to as incredibly euphoric?

Kinda sounds like the same white MDMA shards I have at the moment. They are hella euphoric.

And that's what I've been saying. It's hard to read a bunch of ppl's comments trying to convince me that MDMA has been magically changed, though no one has any proof of any chemical difference whatsoever and meanwhile I just took some MDMA the other night that had me rolling my face off hard: full-on nystagmus, jaw quivers, euphoria, anxiolysis, and that raw feeling of pure, in-the-moment empathy for all of mankind and the general notion that everything will be okay and everything is in its right place. There's no mistaking or denying that it's real MDMA hydrochloride.

 

[G_Chem]

Rolling two nights in a row? 👁👁

I do it more often than not. When done properly I can reach depths I couldn’t on the first night. I think it has to do with altered metabolism. I’ve been meaning to write a thread on it. I know other posters like @Hilopsilo have experienced the same thing. The first nigjt can be overwhelming intense and harsh physically, the second night my game is on point, I’m dancing like a madman, and it’s much easier on my body.

But if someone does this they need to keep dosages in a safe range, top off on antioxidants before, during and after, and keep the total yearly rolls to 5-6 times.

-GC

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Altered metabolism is why I like to take a small dose like 20-25mg before the main dose to get enzymatic activity going ahead of time, it feels like I roll harder when I do that

 

[G_Chem]

Altered metabolism is why I like to take a small dose like 20-25mg before the main dose to get enzymatic activity going ahead of time, it feels like I roll harder when I do that

I’ve been meaning to try this more. I think I have a few times but not enough to know and it was many many years ago. I do remember 50 followed by 75 was not as good as the full dose straight away. But I think this altered metabolism is why I always need a booster or else my roll fades out way to quickly.

-GC

 

[unodelacosa]

I do remember 50 followed by 75 was not as good as the full dose straight away.

That's how I feel about it, too. Same thing with LSD and most serotonergic psychedelics / empathogens. Tachyphylaxis-type tolerance begins setting in quickly.

But I think this altered metabolism is why I always need a booster or else my roll fades out way to quickly.

One thing to try is taking some Tums, Maalox or another antacid, or just a spoonful of baking soda dissolved in water and drink that down prior to ingesting your roll. This will raise your renal pH and increase the bioavailability of your roll, and it really works, too.

Altered metabolism is why I like to take a small dose like 20-25mg before the main dose to get enzymatic activity going ahead of time, it feels like I roll harder when I do that

I think it's important to have a nearly empty stomach before rolling. It really can make a huge difference between that and the renal pH trick mentioned above.

 

[new2drugs]

That's how I feel about it, too. Same thing with LSD and most serotonergic psychedelics / empathogens. Tachyphylaxis-type tolerance begins setting in quickly.


One thing to try is taking some Tums, Maalox or another antacid, or just a spoonful of baking soda dissolved in water and drink that down prior to ingesting your roll. This will raise your renal pH and increase the bioavailability of your roll, and it really works, too.


I think it's important to have a nearly empty stomach before rolling. It really can make a huge difference between that and the renal pH trick mentioned above.

Yes , do not eat before it. It delays it and sometimes you don't think it's working, so you take more.

Happened to me and I was off my face with no memory

 

[Rectify]

unodelacosa said:

that's what I've been saying. It's hard to read a bunch of ppl's comments trying to convince me that MDMA has been magically changed, though no one has any proof of any chemical difference whatsoever and meanwhile I just took some MDMA the other night that had me rolling my face off hard: full-on nystagmus, jaw quivers, euphoria, anxiolysis, and that raw feeling of pure, in-the-moment empathy for all of mankind and the general notion that everything will be okay and everything is in its right place. There's no mistaking or denying that it's real MDMA hydrochloride.

Consider yourself lucky! I think the real problem is that REAL mdma.hcl is many times harder to source nowadays than it was in, say, 1997. It could be that PMK-glycidate fueling those reported 250 mg pressed pills @ pill reports is, in fact, NOT a suitable precursor.

 

[unodelacosa]

unodelacosa said:

that's what I've been saying. It's hard to read a bunch of ppl's comments trying to convince me that MDMA has been magically changed, though no one has any proof of any chemical difference whatsoever and meanwhile I just took some MDMA the other night that had me rolling my face off hard: full-on nystagmus, jaw quivers, euphoria, anxiolysis, and that raw feeling of pure, in-the-moment empathy for all of mankind and the general notion that everything will be okay and everything is in its right place. There's no mistaking or denying that it's real MDMA hydrochloride.

Consider yourself lucky! I think the real problem is that REAL mdma.hcl is many times harder to source nowadays than it was in, say, 1997. It could be that PMK-glycidate fueling those reported 250 mg pressed pills @ pill reports is, in fact, NOT a suitable precursor.

If PMK-glycidate were not a suitable precursor, the end product would not be MDMA. And yet, the end product is MDMA, so that idea doesn't hold water in my book. PMK-glycidate is easily converted into PMK, which is piperonyl methyl ketone. This is another name for what is called MDP-2-P, which is 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone. All of this easily fact-checkable. I don't understand why people are getting confused over this. PMK/MDP-2-P is a direct precursor intermediate "bridge", if you will, from isosafrole to MDMA via reductive amination. I know this for fact because I used to manufacture it myself and I have a background in organic chemistry.

And there are tons of ways of producing MDMA. Just recently, in the pharmaceutical industry, an article was recently published called Fully Validated, Multi-Kilogram cGMP Synthesis of MDMA that explains how they used 5-bromo-1,3-benzodioxole as a starting precursor to avoid geopolitical red tape in procuring a List 1 precursor. Also do note: that even in that particular synthesis, exotic though the starting material may be for an MDMA synthesis, they produce PMK as an intermediate. So, regardless if one starts with sassafras oil, safrole, isosafrole, PMK glycidate, or 5-bromo-1,3-benzodioxole, the move to make is the same: precursor → ketone → MDMA. The chemist either makes it or they don't. The precursor will only affect yields, but not quality. That's how chemistry works.

Yes , do not eat before it. It delays it and sometimes you don't think it's working, so you take more.

I don't know about that as blanket advice. My girlfriend gets sick if she doesn't have a little food in her stomach before taking MDMA. Not much either – something light like a peanut butter & jelly sandwich, some crackers and cheese, or maybe a yogurt, something like that. Certainly not a four course meal or anything heavy, no roast beef sub with a side of curly fries and onion rings or something, lol. Calamari as an appetizer, French onion soup, a Cobb salad, then the main course of Roast duck with scalloped potatoes and asparagus paired with a white wine, though the right Chianti could pair nicely as well… finally, for dessert: Bananas Foster. Following this meal up with a dose of MDMA is setting oneself up for disappointment most likely. Metabolism likely plays a role. You know? Or give it four or five hours to metabolize.

Happened to me and I was off my face with no memory

Yeah, I've made that mistake before. Much later in the evening, I was the only one still awake, just rolling my face off and listening to headphones by myself. I took some LSD just to keep me company…

 

[G_Chem]

If PMK-glycidate were not a suitable precursor, the end product would not be MDMA. And yet, the end product is MDMA, so that idea doesn't hold water in my book. PMK-glycidate is easily converted into PMK, which is piperonyl methyl ketone. This is another name for what is called MDP-2-P, which is 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone. All of this easily fact-checkable. I don't understand why people are getting confused over this. PMK/MDP-2-P is a direct precursor intermediate "bridge", if you will, from isosafrole to MDMA via reductive amination. I know this for fact because I used to manufacture it myself and I have a background in organic chemistry.

And there are tons of ways of producing MDMA. Just recently, in the pharmaceutical industry, an article was recently published called Fully Validated, Multi-Kilogram cGMP Synthesis of MDMA that explains how they used 5-bromo-1,3-benzodioxole as a starting precursor to avoid geopolitical red tape in procuring a List 1 precursor. Also do note: that even in that particular synthesis, exotic though the starting material may be for an MDMA synthesis, they produce PMK as an intermediate. So, regardless if one starts with sassafras oil, safrole, isosafrole, PMK glycidate, or 5-bromo-1,3-benzodioxole, the move to make is the same: precursor → ketone → MDMA. The chemist either makes it or they don't. The precursor will only affect yields, but not quality. That's how chemistry works.

I don't know about that as blanket advice. My girlfriend gets sick if she doesn't have a little food in her stomach before taking MDMA. Not much either – something light like a peanut butter & jelly sandwich, some crackers and cheese, or maybe a yogurt, something like that. Certainly not a four course meal or anything heavy, no roast beef sub with a side of curly fries and onion rings or something, lol. Calamari as an appetizer, French onion soup, a Cobb salad, then the main course of Roast duck with scalloped potatoes and asparagus paired with a white wine, though the right Chianti could pair nicely as well… finally, for dessert: Bananas Foster. Following this meal up with a dose of MDMA is setting oneself up for disappointment most likely. Metabolism likely plays a role. You know? Or give it four or five hours to metabolize.


Yeah, I've made that mistake before. Much later in the evening, I was the only one still awake, just rolling my face off and listening to headphones by myself. I took some LSD just to keep me company…

I disagree, shit in shit out. If there’s impurities that don’t get purified out and get carried through that can indeed cause psychoactive byproducts to form. For instance, depending on what natural source is used for safrole other alkenylbenzenes can be present that can also produce the respective ketones and amines.

Then add in all the other potentials, like methylamine contaminated with ammonium chloride and dimethylamine, etc. And it’s easy to see how each batch has its own flavor.


Now I do agree with you though, the prevalence of this meh-DMA isn’t what people here claim. I’d say all the MDMA I encounter is high quality and produces the effects I seek. And these past few years it’s probably peaking again like it did mid 2010’s.

But each batch I come across definitely varies from the last. Like one I got this summer feels like possibly some MDA in there, multiple reagent tested. Effects oddly don’t manifest until 1:20 in, but once it gets going I can feel residual effects 7hrs later. The other batch is that more intense hard and quick roll, 4-5hrs with a booster.

That seems to be the spectrum of effects usually. Stuff that takes longer to come up but lasts, and then stuff that hits harder and quicker but fades faster as well. I prefer the former.

-GC

 

[new2drugs]

Any positive news about legalisation anywhere in the world?

 

[unodelacosa]

I disagree, shit in shit out.

Let me stop you right there. Nothing I said above could be construed as not agreeing with "shit in, shit out." You're not disagreeing with me; you clearly must not be understanding what I'm saying here. Please don't start talking about impurities in the reaction next, because that's a different matter that has nothing to do with using PMK-glycidate as a starting point. This is a straw man argument you're making otherwise.

If there’s impurities that don’t get purified out and get carried through that can indeed cause psychoactive byproducts to form. For instance, depending on what natural source is used for safrole other alkenylbenzenes can be present that can also produce the respective ketones and amines.

See? Straw man argument. This is kangaroo court.

Come on, man. If this is the case, then we are no longer discussing MDMA. I'm talking about in the instance of having the right precursors, and knowing how to purify them and verify purity, then there is no way anything else would be produced. People keep tossing out these odd scenarios in which clearly other compounds are being produced as if it's some kind of news no one else knew anything about until just now. Yeah, no shit "rubbish in, rubbish out". And? That's nothing new, and of course I would only speak about clean syntheses. What am I, a hack? I'm not talking about starting any reactions with impurity-riddled shit. It's an absolute given that one would clean their own reagents and precursors before using if that needs to be done. This is not a valid rebuttal. You said "I disagree" but then fail to disagree. Instead you present an entirely different, asinine argument that I would never make and was not making to begin with. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills explaining this over and over. And you know this already, dude.

@G_Chem you of all people should know better by now, man. I know that you know this, too. What gives? Why are you trying to make this argument? I didn't say anything about inept, wannabe chemist morons doing shit chemistry. If that's the case, then that's the problem and it has fuck all to do with starting with PMK-glycidate, PMK, safrole, isosafrole, 5-bromo-1,3-benzodioxole, or any other precursor. I'm trying to get people to understand that it doesn't matter where you start, it only matters where you end up if you do organic chemistry properly. Yields might suck ass, but the purity should never be low. It's not hard to understand.

How else can I say this? If it were legal, you give me a few Liters of PMK-glycidate, and I would return to you approximately 1.5 kg of the purest MDMA hydrochloride that delivers the magic we all know and love. I promise you that. But until that legality is a reality, there's no way I'm fucking around with the feds again, and I would not suggest anyone else try it either. As a general note to anyone reading along, please do not try any of these syntheses bc 1.) they're illegalAF and the consequences outweigh the rewards; I wish someone had explained that to me when I was a young man, but I digress, and 2.) the Erowid archive is oldAF and trying those syntheses now will likely lead to your quick arrest. For example, I used to be able to order p-benzoquinone to perform a p-benzo Wacker oxidation of safrole to MDP-2-P (which was awesome as it isomerized the safrole, in situ, saving a step) at fair yields. Good luck ordering that chemical now – it's become highly watched for exactly this reason. The authors of that literature from The Hive are working on an assumption that it's still easily obtained. A whole lot has changed over the past 25 years…

 

[Observer01]

I do it more often than not. When done properly I can reach depths I couldn’t on the first night. I think it has to do with altered metabolism. I’ve been meaning to write a thread on it. I know other posters like @Hilopsilo have experienced the same thing. The first nigjt can be overwhelming intense and harsh physically, the second night my game is on point, I’m dancing like a madman, and it’s much easier on my body.

But if someone does this they need to keep dosages in a safe range, top off on antioxidants before, during and after, and keep the total yearly rolls to 5-6 times.

-GC

I roll typically twice a year, and it’s always two nights in a row because I typically do it seeing a band I follow. I generally experience exactly what you are describing. A “smoother” experience with less come up anxiety and a better peak on night two. Although I do find the comedown on night 2 to be slightly more challenging. I think there’s something to the night 1 being a metaphorical punch in the face with such a drastic change in baseline physiology that the body is better prepped for night 2.

With that said, I’m a healthy person and don’t do many substances outside of those mdma experiences. I take a ton of vitamins and anti-oxidants (not proven to help I know but I figure it doesn’t hurt) and I also take an amino acid supplement before and after the roll. Zero or very limited booze. Reasonable mdma dosages. Get to bed at a decent hour on night 1. With these guidelines it seems to me work just fine on night 2.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

What about

 

[elgoucho9]

Let me just stop you right there. Nothing I said above could be construed as not agreeing with "shit in, shit out." You're not disagreeing with me; you clearly must not be understanding what I'm saying here. Don't start talking about impurities in the reaction next, because that's an ENTIRELY different matter that has NOTHING to do with using PMK-glycidate as a starting point. This is a straw man argument you're making otherwise.


See? Straw man argument. This is kangaroo court.

Come on, man. If this is the case, then we are no longer discussing MDMA. I'm talking about in the instance of having the right precursors, and knowing how to purify them and verify purity, then there is no way anything else would be produced. People keep tossing out these odd scenarios in which CLEARLY other compounds are being produced as if it's some kind of news no one else knew anything about until just now. Yeah, no fucking shit "garbage in, garbage out". And? That's not news. I'm not talking about starting any reactions with impurity-riddled shit. It's an absolute given that one would clean their own product before using. This is not a valid rebuttal. You said "I disagree" but then fail to disagree. Instead you present an entirely different, asinine argument that I would never make and was not making to begin with. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills explaining this shit over and over.

@G_Chem you of all people should know better by now, man. Why are you trying to make this argument? I didn't say any fucking thing about retarded-ass wannabe chemist morons doing shit chemistry. If that's the case, then THAT'S the problem and it has fuck all to do with starting with PMK-glycidate, PMK, safrole, isosafrole, 5-bromo-1,3-benzodioxole, or any other precursor. I'm trying to get people to understand that it doesn't matter where you start, it only matters where you end up if you do organic chemistry properly. Yields might suck ass, but the purity should NEVER be low. It's not hard to understand.

The age old debate.

One constant i notice is the clear mdma is usually lacking. Whereas brown sugar or cola is usually better. But why when that would surely be a sign of impurity i am not sure.

When the glycidate first came about there was an abundance of shit MDMA. Now this seems to no longer be the case. I wonder were some chemists at one point making another product entirely at one stage. That clear stuff that smelt like acetone was wet and produced a 2 hour high surely was not MDMA at all.