Israel is under attack

[mal3volent]

I was trying not to get too involved with this thread again cos it honestly does my head in, but...

Israel-Hamas war updates: Netanyahu rejects ceasefire after captive video

Fierce fighting on the ground in Gaza as Israeli forces push deeper inside the besieged enclave amid heavy bombing.

www.aljazeera.com

Israel forces battle Hamas in Gaza as PM rejects ceasefire

Israel said Tuesday its forces battled Hamas inside Gaza overnight and struck 300 targets after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu categorically ruled out a ceasefire as a "surrender" to the Palestinian…

www.france24.com

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/30/world/middleeast/netanyahu-israel-hamas-cease-fire.html

Israel Gaza: US rejects calls for ceasefire

The American decision comes amid loud calls for a humanitarian truce at the United Nations.

www.bbc.com

Israel’s military says Gaza City surrounded, rejects ceasefire calls

Hamas’s armed wing warns that invading Israeli soldiers will go home ‘in black bags’.

www.aljazeera.com

Israel rejects ceasefire calls as forces set to deepen offensive

Israel on Sunday rejected growing calls for a ceasefire in Gaza, with military specialists saying that forces are set to intensify their operations against Palestinian Islamist group Hamas, with no time frame set for their activities.

www.reuters.com

Netanyahu rejected ceasefire-for-hostages deal in Gaza, sources say

Israeli PM said to have turned down proposal in early talks and continues to take tough line

www.theguardian.com

Hamas offered Israel 50 hostages for a 5-day cease-fire but the deal got rejected, reports say

Hamas proposed exchanging 50 Israeli hostages for a five-day cease-fire in Gaza, but Israel rejected the offer, according to The New York Times.

www.businessinsider.com

Netanyahu rejects growing calls for a cease-fire as Israel battles Hamas outside main Gaza hospital

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is pushing back against growing international calls for a cease-fire, saying Israel’s battle to crush Gaza’s ruling Hamas militants would continue with “full force.”

apnews.com

Netanyahu rejects ceasefire calls as Gaza's main hospital goes dark

The latest developments from the Israel-Hamas war.

www.euronews.com

Guess what, all those links come from me searching 'ceasfire rejected by Hamas'

Look how long this has been going on for - 2014 article

Hamas did not reject a ceasefire, Israel did

Reasonable ceasefire terms for Gaza have long been on the table, but Israel refuses to accept them.

electronicintifada.net

Israel was given warnings from their own soldiers. Their own military intelligence. Foreign military intelligence. But chose to ignore them all. Ignore that Hamas ran a simulation the day before which they also knew about. What does that tell you about Israel's concern for their own citizens. They were more concerned about having the golden excuse for the international community to invade Gaza
Have a look at this post and tell me did Israel not know about the attack and use it to their advantage



The fact that you still refuse to denounce what Israel is doing when they have killed 8000 children, 4000, and 17000 civilians. For the sake of 2000 Hamas. Says to me you are in full on support of Israel, regardless of innocent women and children being murdered in the thousands.

Israel have also committed several war crimes including using banned substances like white phosperous. Breaking their own agreements with the bombing. Etc



What like patients in hospital who had already been injured and couldn't move? Yeah i'm sure they managed to just spring up and get out the way no problem.

Ample warning to go where? 1.7 million of them have already been displaced. Not like they can go home and watch an episode of Eastenders.

I know your probably still left thinking,
'But they all deserve it cos Hamas r terrorist'

SS was talking about long term peace treaties then you post links about temporary cease fires... two completely different things.

The death count numbers as I've said a million times, I'm not going to take them as fact until an unbiased source weighs in. @elgoucho9 , I'm wondering, how many Hamas terrorists have been killed according to the "Gaza health officials"? When you try to find that number and fail I hope your common sense will help fill in the gaps. They count combatants as civilian...

even if the numbers were completely accurate (which they're not) it's a tragedy yes but a tragedy brought on by the actions of Hamas. Not allowing civilians to flee south, blocking roadways, etc. hiding in and around civilian targets.

if you don't understand yet that this is how they operate you are being willfully ignorant. They cannot win a military battle, they know this, so they focus on the only battle they can win , which is the propaganda battle. THEY KNOW that every dead Palestinian child is a victory for their cause.

Watch all the videos of parents purposely directing their children to troll IDF soldiers with cameras in hand, waiting to get a reaction. Hamas terrorists also use children to send into places they can't go to collect information and report back to them. Women also. This is very well documented.

 

[elgoucho9]

SS was talking about long term peace treaties then you post links about temporary cease fires... two completely different things.

The death count numbers as I've said a million times, I'm not going to take them as fact until an unbiased source weighs in. @elgoucho9 , I'm wondering, how many Hamas terrorists have been killed according to the "Gaza health officials"? When you try to find that number and fail I hope your common sense will help fill in the gaps. They count combatants as civilian...

SS was saying that Hamas keep rejecting the ceasefire which is not really the truth as the mutiple sources i posted show.

My main point is none of you, SS etc seem to be willing to denounce killing the people who are innocent. Which not one of you have as far as i can see. It's like this mentality that everyone in Gaza must be burnt to the ground, so we can kill an ideology, one which exists in several other countries.. it doesn't work like that.

Also where are any of you acknowledging what really happened on October 7th? Why did Israel let that happen to their own people? How did Hamas manage to attack and get back through the 'inpeteratable Iron Wall' back to Gaza?
Could it be because war is like business, and they were willing to sacrafice some of their own people to attack Gaza...

You all seem to just come straight back to 'Hamas r terrorists duhhh', ofcourse there couldn't be any innocent women and children being killed, right? I mean they could all just like get out of the way like they're told and they'd be 100% fine ofcoure.

Statistics on the Israeli Genocide in the Gaza Strip (07 October - 24 November 2023)

Statistics on the Israeli Genocide in the Gaza Strip (07 October - 24 November 2023)

euromedmonitor.org

By that it looks like they've killed roughly 2000 members of Hamas. Do you really think dropping bombs and air strikes that alot of innocent people DON'T get killed? You know i respect you mal, but that seems like quite a ridiculous stance to take.

 

[mal3volent]

SS was saying that Hamas keep rejecting the ceasefire

did he? Can you quote where he said it because I can't find it.

My main point is none of you, SS etc seem to be willing to denounce killing the people who are innocent. Which not one of you have as far as i can see. It's like this mentality that everyone in Gaza must be burnt to the ground, so we can kill an ideology, one which exists in several other countries.. it doesn't work like that.

Israel isn't intentionally going out to murder civilians as Hamas does. They are engaging in war against an enemy who attacked them. They spent a considerable amount of time dropping leaflets , sending text messages, broadcasts, etc warning civilians to move south. They opened up civilian corridors south. I don't know what more you expect them to do against an enemy that purposely hides amongst civilians. You can't eliminate an ideology with bombs but you can neutralize their ability to organize and attack you within your borders.

 

[mal3volent]

even if the numbers were completely accurate (which they're not) it's a tragedy yes but a tragedy brought on by the actions of Hamas. Not allowing civilians to flee south, blocking roadways, etc. hiding in and around civilian targets.

if you don't understand yet that this is how they operate you are being willfully ignorant. They cannot win a military battle, they know this, so they focus on the only battle they can win , which is the propaganda battle. THEY KNOW that every dead Palestinian child is a victory for their cause.

Watch all the videos of parents purposely directing their children to troll IDF soldiers with cameras in hand, waiting to get a reaction. Hamas terrorists also use children to send into places they can't go to collect information and report back to them. Women also. This is very well documented.

quoting the portion you probably missed that I edited in ^
please be honest in your response to this and try to comprehend how these tactics slant all the numbers coming out

 

[elgoucho9]

[

did he? Can you quote where he said it because I can't find it

Yeah sure he said it here. You really believe people being blown to bits with over 1.7 million people have been displaced people don't want a ceasfire?

There's been multiple attempts to have an amicable two state solution and it has been rejected every single time by the Palestinians. Who is really at fault here.

Israel isn't intentionally going out to murder civilians as Hamas does. They are engaging in war against an enemy who attacked them. They spent a considerable amount of time dropping leaflets , sending text messages, broadcasts, etc warning civilians to move south. They opened up civilian corridors south. I don't know what more you expect them to do against an enemy that purposely hides amongst civilians. You can't eliminate an ideology with bombs but you can neutralize their ability to organize and attack you within your borders.

If you really believe Israel isn't killing civilians deliberately your deluded. Do you think Israel gives a shit about Palestinians at all? No they want them all gone so they can have the land.

Even lets say if it wasn't intentional. How does that justify the numbers of innocents they have killed? Oops sorry didn't mean to kill a whole building full of people in hospital, was just trying to get the tErOriStS bro

On one hand people were made to feel strongly that Hamas must go, because they killed children. Views being weaponised by the Israeli propeganda. Yet when the entire media, social media, videos etc all show that thousands of Palestinian children have been killed, thats OK? They're just necesary collateral damage in the war against Hamas. Man you people are lost.

quoting the portion you probably missed that I edited in ^
please be honest in your response to this and try to comprehend how these tactics slant all the numbers coming out

You really think Hamas can win a propeganda battle against Israel, that is just insanity. Israel have the most advanced security in the world. Do you not think with military security also comes propeganda experts? Ofcourse it does. Israel are literally the masters of propeganda. They even lied about 40 dead babies behind beheaded.

Unverified reports of ‘40 babies beheaded’ in Israel-Hamas war inflame social media

No photo evidence had been made public as of Thursday morning corroborating claims that babies had been beheaded. Israel has published photos of dead infants after the terror attack.

www.nbcnews.com

IDF says it won't back up its claim that Hamas decapitated babies in Israel because it is 'disrespectful for the dead'

An IDF spokesperson told Insider that it won't investigate its claim that Hamas decapitated babies.

www.businessinsider.com

I agree that obviously the numbers of the dead will be skewed. The Gaza health officials admit this themselves

Gaza health officials say they lost the ability to count dead as Israeli offensive intensifies

Palestinian health officials in Gaza say they have lost the ability to count the dead because of the collapse of the enclave's health system and the difficulty of retrieving bodies from areas overrun by Israeli tanks and troops.

apnews.com

Imagine trying to keep count of everyone dead when you've displaced nearly the whole population. I imagine the toll is always behind the real number, as it will take time for people reported missing in the rubble etc to be found or declared dead.

 

[mal3volent]

Yeah sure he said it here. You really believe people being blown to bits with over 1.7 million people have been displaced people don't want a ceasfire?

do you understand the difference between the recent cease fire and the historical reference to the term "two state solution " ? Surely someone who argues with such passion has a basic understanding of these terms right?

I'm not going to waste my time having literally the same discussion with you as I have with five other people in this thread over 150 pages when it's clear you aren't interested in a good faith dialogue...

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

just your regular human in power. Just your regular far-right authoritarian enemy of people. Nothing surprising.

 

[-=SS=-]

Look how long this has been going on for - 2014 article

Hamas did not reject a ceasefire, Israel did

Reasonable ceasefire terms for Gaza have long been on the table, but Israel refuses to accept them.

electronicintifada.net

'Electronicintifada'. I can't be fucked to dig on their connections and funding, but with a name like that I think we can presume these people aren't exactly unbiased.

And I wasn't referring to ceasefires in hostilities. I was talking about actual dialogue for two state solutions, which goes right back to the founding of Israel and every time it has been rejected by the Palestinians/Arab world.

Israel was given warnings from their own soldiers. Their own military intelligence. Foreign military intelligence. But chose to ignore them all. Ignore that Hamas ran a simulation the day before which they also knew about. What does that tell you about Israel's concern for their own citizens. They were more concerned about having the golden excuse for the international community to invade Gaza. Have a look at this post and tell me did Israel not know about the attack and use it to their advantage

Don't use disingenuous language. You are insinuating the entire state apparatus doesn't care, which is ridiculous. Israel is not like the USA or UK, it has a much smaller population, is far younger, and the mechanics of it are far different - they have to use conscription, for example. Everyone knows someone involved in all of it, as it were, whereas in the USA you have so many people you can quite easily compartmentalize some atrocious military programs and people.

The fact that you still refuse to denounce what Israel is doing when they have killed 8000 children, 4000, and 17000 civilians. For the sake of 2000 Hamas. Says to me you are in full on support of Israel, regardless of innocent women and children being murdered in the thousands.

And who started this? Hamas. It doesn't matter whether there was an intelligence failure or deliberate conspiracy, Hamas didn't have to attack 1000+ innocent civilians.. no one forced them to do that. And not only did they do it, but the level of barbarity and butchery on display suggests they wanted to and not for any actual military objective. You and others keep deferring to some unproven conspiracy regarding Israel and using that as the jumping off point for excusing the actions of Hamas.

Even if there is foul play, and I'm not ruling that out (as I have said right from the start) that still does not excuse Hamas from what it has done. A failure or conspiracy on the part of Israel does not change the reality of what Hamas did and what they stand for. Do you understand that?

Yeah sure he said it here. You really believe people being blown to bits with over 1.7 million people have been displaced people don't want a ceasfire?

No I didn't. I said in post #2980, "There's been multiple attempts to have an amicable two state solution and it has been rejected every single time by the Palestinians". That's not about ceasefires from hostilities, that's about sessions of actual dialogue and proposed solutions that have consistently been rejected by the Palestinian/Arab world right from the get go. A two state solution was on the table right from the beginning, the Arab world rejected it and started a war against Israel instead.

If they had agreed to a two state solution from the start then all these decades of pointless violence could have been avoided. I'm not an expert on the history or details, but from one of the videos I linked earlier of that Israeli tour guide, he seems to suggest that actually the land on offer in the original deal was better for the Arab side than the Israeli side - Israel would have just gotten the swampy shit land, which it did anyway and still made something of it.

 

[-=SS=-]

just your regular human in power. Just your regular far-right authoritarian enemy of people. Nothing surprising.

Netanyahu is a shifty fuck, it's written all over his face. As I said earlier in the thread, there is something suspicious about his history as well; his book/WTC comments, and initiation into a US freemasonic lodge.

But the thing is, even if that's true, that doesn't exclude the other side of the equation. It's not a binary thing. He can be a shifty duplicitous fuck and those on the Arab side can also be shifty duplicitous fucks too. I mean come on, look at Hamas.. their leaders living in Qatar with billions to their names. Are we just going to overlook that? And let's not pretend that there isn't a sizeable majority of people in the Arab world, Gaza and beyond, who would love nothing more than to not only see Israel destroyed but also see many/all the Jews massacred in the process as well.

It can be both at the same time. It can also be more than this as well.. there are other players on the international stage that we know of and some we probably aren't aware of. Shit is complicated. The binary analysis just does not reflect the situation accurately.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

I agree.

 

[elgoucho9]

No I didn't. I said in post #2980, "There's been multiple attempts to have an amicable two state solution and it has been rejected every single time by the Palestinians". That's not about ceasefires from hostilities, that's about sessions of actual dialogue and proposed solutions that have consistently been rejected by the Palestinian/Arab world right from the get go. A two state solution was on the table right from the beginning, the Arab world rejected it and started a war against Israel instead.

If they had agreed to a two state solution from the start then all these decades of pointless violence could have been avoided. I'm not an expert on the history or details, but from one of the videos I linked earlier of that Israeli tour guide, he seems to suggest that actually the land on offer in the original deal was better for the Arab side than the Israeli side - Israel would have just gotten the swampy shit land, which it did anyway and still made something of it.

My mistake i misread what you said on first glance. Equally there will be no two state solution, like i already said here.

Plus Bibi's government also sees Hamas as an asset and the Palestinian Authority as a burden even though Hamas is more violent and uncompromising. They allow funds to go through Qatar, knowing they will use it for targeting Israelis, not "humanitarian aid" as they claim it will be used for. This is their scheme to keep Palestine divided and make sure that a two state solition is impossible. So yes, if Israeli lives need to be sacraficed to Hamas in order for them to gain worldwide support and incite their civilians to rejoice in their ethnic cleansing of Palestine then they will do just that.

Don't use disingenuous language. You are insinuating the entire state apparatus doesn't care, which is ridiculous. Israel is not like the USA or UK, it has a much smaller population, is far younger, and the mechanics of it are far different - they have to use conscription, for example. Everyone knows someone involved in all of it, as it were, whereas in the USA you have so many people you can quite easily compartmentalize some atrocious military programs and people.

If they cared about their own people they wouldn't have ignored all warnings from their own soldiers, intelligence and foreign militaries warnings about the October 7th attacks. Then taken so long to do react and do anything. The actions there would suggest they don't care and would rather have a decent excuse for the international community to attack Gaza.

And who started this? Hamas. It doesn't matter whether there was an intelligence failure or deliberate conspiracy, Hamas didn't have to attack 1000+ innocent civilians.. no one forced them to do that. And not only did they do it, but the level of barbarity and butchery on display suggests they wanted to and not for any actual military objective. You and others keep deferring to some unproven conspiracy regarding Israel and using that as the jumping off point for excusing the actions of Hamas.

Even if there is foul play, and I'm not ruling that out (as I have said right from the start) that still does not excuse Hamas from what it has done. A failure or conspiracy on the part of Israel does not change the reality of what Hamas did and what they stand for. Do you understand that?

If you acknowledge there is likely some sort of conspiracy with the origin of the attacks. Then can you not see that if the IDF and Hamas leaders both knew what was going on. Then the loosers in this scenario are the Palestinian people.

Netanyahu is a shifty fuck, it's written all over his face. As I said earlier in the thread, there is something suspicious about his history as well; his book/WTC comments, and initiation into a US freemasonic lodge.

But the thing is, even if that's true, that doesn't exclude the other side of the equation. It's not a binary thing. He can be a shifty duplicitous fuck and those on the Arab side can also be shifty duplicitous fucks too. I mean come on, look at Hamas.. their leaders living in Qatar with billions to their names. Are we just going to overlook that? And let's not pretend that there isn't a sizeable majority of people in the Arab world, Gaza and beyond, who would love nothing more than to not only see Israel destroyed but also see many/all the Jews massacred in the process as well.

It can be both at the same time. It can also be more than this as well.. there are other players on the international stage that we know of and some we probably aren't aware of. Shit is complicated. The binary analysis just does not reflect the situation accurately.

This i completely agree with. They are all shifty as fuck. The loosers who will suffer in this scenario are the civilians who's whole lives have been turned around as their homes and families are blown to bits by attacks. That goes for either side.

 

[elgoucho9]

do you understand the difference between the recent cease fire and the historical reference to the term "two state solution " ? Surely someone who argues with such passion has a basic understanding of these terms right?

I'm not going to waste my time having literally the same discussion with you as I have with five other people in this thread over 150 pages when it's clear you aren't interested in a good faith dialogue...

Quite funny you took the one mistake i made and ran with that to completely avoid the rest mal. I think we both know that i know the difference there. I am typing on a phone with the screen smashed to pieces. Hence the error.

The long and short of it all is some people will not denounce any killing by Israel. Which if you have any basic humanity you would see the killing on both sides as wrong. War is not good period. The people who start it never pay for their crimes and the people who suffer most are innocent civilians and soldiers who are pawns to their puppet masters who sit comfortably miles away from any of the conflict they orchestrated. Which that is exactly what is happening here.

 

[mal3volent]

Quite funny you took the one mistake i made and ran with that to completely avoid the rest mal. I think we both know that i know the difference there. I am typing on a phone with the screen smashed to pieces. Hence the error.

The long and short of it all is some people will not denounce any killing by Israel. Which if you have any basic humanity you would see the killing on both sides as wrong. War is not good period. The people who start it never pay for their crimes and the people who suffer most are innocent civilians and soldiers who are pawns to their puppet masters who sit comfortably miles away from any of the conflict they orchestrated. Which that is exactly what is happening here.

were the allied powers in the wrong during wwII because innocent civilians died?

why bother killing Nazis? You can't kill their ideology after all...

if killing = bad is the only ethical calculation you take, then surely we should have just sat on our hands? maybe send in the special forces to tactically kill all of them one by one?

 

[elgoucho9]

were the allied powers in the wrong during wwII because innocent civilians died?

why bother killing Nazis? You can't kill their ideology after all...

if killing = bad is the only ethical calculation you take, then surely we should have just sat on our hands? maybe send in the special forces to tactically kill all of them one by one?

So you've just made it clear you don't care about any Palestinian civilians or childrens deaths. You fell hook line and sinker for the whole set up on October 7th. And you are a blood hungry war monger. Smart guy.

As far as i know WW2 didn't happen on the back of a set up and backed up by false propeganda.

Serious question for you. Do you think it was Bin Laden and the Taliban that committed 9/11?
And that 'weapons of mass destruction' was the real reason for going into Iraq?

 

[mal3volent]

oh great.

I seriously haven't talked to one anti-Israel person who wasn't either a Marxist, a conspiracy theorist, or both...

 

[elgoucho9]

oh great.

I seriously haven't talked to one anti-Israel person who wasn't either a Marxist, a conspiracy theorist, or both...

I'm not anti israel. I'm anti killing innocent civilians. Unlike you i actually have some empathy and humanity about me.

Call me a consipracy theorist if you like. But i posted 10+ sources all showing israel knew about the attack and silenced all soldiers and intelligence officers who mentioned it. So yes, if Israeli lives need to be sacraficed to Hamas in order for them to gain worldwide support and incite their civilians to rejoice in their ethnic cleansing of Palestine then that's exactly what they would do.
If you understood war is just like business to these people in power, then you would understand it's no problem to take a small loss if it brings you a big gain towards furthering your agenda later.

I presume by your reply you actually do think Bin Laden alone did 9/11. Depsite all the evidence there is to show what really happened. Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams and you don't let the person you suspected of doing it's family out of the country the next day, while no other flights are allowed.
The Iraq war, no weapons of mass destruction were found.
I used these two to illustrate to you how far a government will go in terms of lying to it's citizens in order to further their agenda.
You don't think Netanyahu would do the same about October 7th?

 

[Jabberwocky]

 

[mal3volent]

I'm not anti israel. I'm anti killing innocent civilians. Unlike you i actually have some empathy and humanity about me.

if I look back in your post history will I find you rallying against the actual genocides in Syria, Iraq, etc? Surely , an innocent civilian crusader would have been vocal about half a million dead there? Millions displaced? Who knows how many "partially destroyed" domiciles...

 

[elgoucho9]

if I look back in your post history will I find you rallying against the actual genocides in Syria, Iraq, etc? Surely , an innocent civilian crusader would have been vocal about half a million dead there? Millions displaced? Who knows how many "partially destroyed" domiciles...

I literally just said the war in Iraq was based on lies. So yes neither of those wars should have happened.

If i look back on your post history will i find you defending bombing any innocent civilians who aren't Israeli?

Do you really think innocent people are being killed in air strikes or missile attacks? Or do you just hate Palestinians in particular?

 

[mal3volent]

Lol, you don't even know what I'm referring to.
I'm done with this thread for today. :hai: