Bupe Suboxone can ruin your life

[Frog Dreams]

Except bursting your colon?

That was tongue-in-cheek.

 

[Whitey69]

I'm not It seems to me that the risks massively outweigh the rewards. Just look at OD rates in the US.

The sad reality is that the od rates are not natural, they are a direct result of government meddling . I would be surprised if the government is not financing all the blues and fent flooding the us. How else could it be so cheap ? And available ? Should criminalization and the government be trying to make it less available? We are where we are and it’s not by accident. Which doesn’t change the reality of yals discussion but it should be pointed out

 

[Frog Dreams]

doesn’t change the reality

I only care about the reality.

I only care about the harm it is doing.

 

[xtcgrrrl]

As long as wonderful moderators like you exist here on this forum, it will stay a free speech zone. Thank you for everything. I really appreciate all the effort you and the other mods, including the admins put into this forum.

Wanted to thank you too for all you do here!
We love you xtcgrrrl!!! ^_^

Thanks, guys! I deeply appreciate these comments!

BL has probably saved my life many times.

That is so good to hear. That’s what sites like this one SHOULD be for. Unfortunately, because of the way Google has structured itself, Bluelight NEVER appears on the first page of answers when someone poses a question about drugs. It’s a damn shame.

They are also more statistically likely to prematurely kill you. Just look at the number of BLers who have died from opioid abuse.

I don’t think ANYONE who uses drugs recreationally does so without the full knowledge that they’re not exactly healthy, lol. That drugs are detrimental to your health (with the exception of shrooms) isn’t the debate; the debate here is HOW EXACTLY do these drugs harm you, and how to minimize the harm as much as possible. That’s what “harm reduction” means.

People should get help.

This is help. This site is a good resource for getting help, whether your intent is to stop taking drugs or simply continue but in a safer manner.

You are downplaying the dangers.

Curious; would you consider simply stating the potential harms to be “downplaying?” Or are you talking about tone?

For the latter, this IS a drug site, after all. Most people here are probably going to continue using. But they can ask questions and get unbiased, non-judgmental responses. Acceptance is important to people. So I’m guessing that the causal acceptance that most of the members here are likely to continue their drug use, that is the “lack of downplaying of dangers” that you’re alluding to?

 

[Frog Dreams]

I don’t think ANYONE who uses drugs recreationally does so without the full knowledge that they’re not exactly healthy, lol.

I didn't suggest that you guys were saying opioids are entirely safe, I said some people on this website downplay the dangers.

That drugs are detrimental to your health (with the exception of shrooms) isn’t the debate; the debate here is HOW EXACTLY do these drugs harm you, and how to minimize the harm as much as possible. That’s what “harm reduction” means.

Yeah, I know what harm reduction means.

This is help. This site is a good resource for getting help, whether your intent is to stop taking drugs or simply continue but in a safer manner.

I didn't say otherwise. You're taking my comment out of context. It was in response to:

Now when you look up anything opioid related on google, it's nothing but "get help!" ads & misinformation.

I disagree. I couldn't be bothered going through every Google response that comes up. There is certainly some misinformation out there, but there is also misinformation on this website.

BL has probably saved my life many times.

We have different experiences. BL has educated me about drugs I didn't know existed when I was a poly-drug addict. Without the website, I wouldn't have pursued these drugs. I've also had many people over the past 23/24 years posting here literally tell me to go and seek out drugs that I've never tried before, while also downplaying their negative effects.

In fairness, that's not on the staff. I am former staff. It's near impossible to moderate all the comments from drug users on here. I understand that and I generally think you're doing a good job @xtcgrrrl.

For the latter, this IS a drug site, after all. Most people here are probably going to continue using.

There's that defeatist attitude again. People aren't going to stop using, so why bother trying to discourage use.

In theory, the best harm reduction with meth / crack / heroin is to discourage people from using. You (and others) in this thread - and elsewhere on BL - are saying that's impossible. I disagree. You won't always convince everyone to reduce / stop using drugs that are likely to ruin their lives, but you can definitely contribute to a positive outcome rather than just shrugging and citing fate / determinism without any actual evidence to back it up.

You could be right. You could be wrong. There is no harm in trying.

So I’m guessing that the causal acceptance that most of the members here are likely to continue their drug use, that is the “lack of downplaying of dangers” that you’re alluding to?

Not just that. There is also promotion of drug use by many users, including staff.

In fairness, I have been promoting 5-meo-DMT and classic natural psychedelics in general... but I do this because psychedelics are a great alternative to extremely harmful drugs like alcohol / meth / heroin / crack / ketamine / etc. 5-meo-DMT has had an entirely positive effect on me. It's not going to kill me. Shrooms aren't going to kill me. LSD isn't going to kill me.

Using 5-meo-DMT in a safe, controlled environment with a trained facilitator has cured all of my mental health problems and ultimately resulted in me stopping using dexamphetamine recreationally, which I have been doing for many years. I no longer have any desire.

I'm not anti-drug.

There are ways to stop using.

 

[Hexenstahl]

I don't think it's wonderful when used as a recreational drug. It has ruined so many lives, including Matthew Perry's. There are so many people on this website that have struggled for years upon years with opioid addiction.

I put heroin up there with meth, not in terms of neurotoxicity obviously but in terms of the overall harm it does to people's lives.

In terms of overdose rates, opioids are responsible for a massive percent of total ODs.

The world would be better off without recreational opioid use.

You guys have made comparisons to alcohol.

What would you rather your sons/daughters/brothers/sisters/friends dabble with: alcohol or heroin?

I hope to God that my daughter never touches an opiate recreationally, whereas I'm sure I will have a glass of wine with her at some point when she's older.

It is downright irresponsible IMO to talk about opioids in such a positive way.

Where should I start with a text that is just reeking with ignorance from top to bottom? Let's do it one by one.

I don't think it's wonderful when used as a recreational drug

You are entitled to your own opinion of course, but do not project it to others and assume they ought to view it the same way you do.

It has ruined so many lives

It has ruined lives because of prohibition and all the consequences that have arisen out of it. The issue isn't the substance, it's all the nasty consequences that exist BECAUSE it is illegal. No opioid addict would perceive his addiction as problematic (much less as having "ruined" their lives as you say) if opioids were legal, and no, this won't result in an out of control addiction "epidemic". That is anti-drug propaganda for people with a brain that is in the developmental stage of a primary school child.
Back when Opium was legal only a small portion of the US population became addicted because the overwhelming majority of people simply do not have a desire or need to do drugs. Legality and ease of access to chemical precursors would ensure a massive supply of opioids that any chemistry student could produce en masse, which in turn would result in dirt cheap prices, resulting in addicts not having to worry anymore about how and where to get money to feed their habit. Money is the issue and not the addiction. If you're a multi-millionaire you can have an oxy habit for the rest of your life and never run into any trouble simply because you can afford a 600mg/day habit.

This proves to me that the problem isn't addiction. All the troubles that we have today in regards to opioids stem from prohibition and the consequences that arise out of it, from the stigma to the astronomical costs of these drugs. I can buy a gram of heroin in afghanistan for laughable 2€, but here in Germany I have to pay at least 15x to 20x the amount to greedy pushers which is absolutely ridiculous. No dope fiend would ever perceive his addiction as a problem if he had to put only 2€ for a gram of nearly 100% pure heroin on the table. No more running around through half the city trying to look for shit to steal. He could work a normal job, advance in his career, raise a family and nobody would even suspect that he's hooked, just like up to the early 20th century. Shit, if dope was that cheap I'd be high 24/7 AND work as an entrepreneur AND look for a partner AND be able to invest surplus capital into stocks, bonds and real estate funds. Life would be totally different for me. It would be different for all addicts, so don't come here telling us that opioids have ruined lives when clearly they have not. My life has been ruined by stupid, fucking people and their prejudices, and not a substance that is not the least bit toxic.

including Matthew Perry's

That's like trying to blame water for Matthew Perry's death because he died of drowning. That's the same crappy logic those reddit-tier answers imply.

There are so many people on this website that have struggled for years upon years with opioid addiction.

Nobody struggles with opioid addiction, they struggle with a system that makes life for an opioid user as hard as it can be, all the while telling him that the only right way to live is a sober life (and since that is not possible ad infinitum due to the nature of addiction, the addict will be continuously depressed and suffers from low self-esteem), stigmatizing him to the status of a lowlife junky, jailing him for the possession of a substance that he depends on because his body doesn't produce enough endogenous opioid peptides (the reason he craves opioids in the first place) and thus criminalizing a perfectly reasonable act of self-medication, doctors taking away pain med scripts abruptly and thereby forcing already dependent people to seek their pain med on the illicit market, the astronomical prices arising out of the nature of the black market, eventually forcing the addicted person to commit crimes, and so on and so forth...THAT is what people here struggle with and NOT opioids. I LOVE opioids but I HATE the system that makes possession of my medication a criminal act. THIS is what I suffer from. This is what every opioid addict suffers from, but unfortunately many addicts including rich people who can easily afford them, have been indoctrinated with the "sobriety religion".

I think it's a shame Perry spent millions of dollars on expensive rehab programs instead of spending it on private doctors who could have prescribed him some good ass opioids. He would have done well on them. I think all those private rehab clinics are really nothing but money making businesses who prey on people's fears and their feelings of shame that has been drilled into their head by society . They offer the same shit that public rehab clinics do, with the only exception that they couch you into a nice looking, comfy environment and charge astronomical $$$ for it. Then you relapse, come back and the whole process repeats itself. That guy honestly should have just spent his money on a good, discrete private doctor. But you see, that's what happens when people suck up this whole puritanical ideology of having to be sober in order to be ok...which leads to feeling depressed all the time because you know that you're not sober. I find these ideas to be a whole lot more damaging than the drugs themselves to be honest.
Those are all the things that we suffer from and not from opioids. And ALL of that shit stems from prohibition and a culture of puritanical fanaticism.

I put heroin up there with meth, not in terms of neurotoxicity obviously but in terms of the overall harm it does to people's lives.

Heroin doesn't harm people's lives. The toxic cuts and its illegal status and the stigma attached to its use is what harms people's lives and NOT freaking heroin.

Still believe that heroin causes harm and suffering? Well, read this:
>>The magazine Leopard, which is published in Scotland near Aberdeen, has discovered that the entourage of Queen Victoria and its hangers-on in the Churchill, Rothschild, and other clans "put in regular orders" with a local pharmacy "for opium, heroin,and cocaine."<<
Source: https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/...0910_047-yes_the_british_royals_did_use_d.pdf

Strange, isn't it? Strange how all these people managed to lead highly successful lives despite doing biiiiig, baaad, eeeevil heroin. How is it that they haven't suffered, and struggled despite having been addicted just as much as we are? Well, it's simple: the suffering is caused by a lack of money. The aforementioned people were all swimming in money! That is where the struggle or lack of struggle really comes from!

In terms of overdose rates, opioids are responsible for a massive percent of total ODs.

Nope. Wildly varying purity (which again, is a result of prohibition) and polydrug use is what is responsible for a massive percent of total ODs and not the opioid itself. Show me one person who takes pure, pharmaceutical opioids without mixing them with other depressants who has ODd from them (excluding suicide attempts)?

The world would be better off without recreational opioid use.

Says who exactly? You? Who are you to tell others how they should use psychoactive substances?
Also, the word "recreational" opioid use is actually misleading. People who use opioids "recreationally" are seeking the antidepressant effect of opioids because they obviously struggle from depression and other mental ailments, which can be seen as a kind of emotional pain, and since opioids are not just effective physical pain killers, but also kill emotional/psychological pain effectively (and have been used in the past for such psychiatric disorders very successfully for thousands of years with no opioid "epidemic"), what we call "recreational" opioid use is simply self-medication by triggering the euphoric response of opioid substances. See, it's very simple: the physical pain patient seeks out that which has the most reliable analgetic potential and the psychological/emotional pain patient (unfortunately not seen as such by modern society and instead as a "junky") seeks out that which has the most reliable euphoric potential.

What would you rather your sons/daughters/brothers/sisters/friends dabble with: alcohol or heroin?

The answer is very simple: given that heroin is illegal and carries due to its prohibitionary status so many risks associated with the legal system and financial risks due to its connection to the black market, and given that alcohol is even in the smallest amounts neurotoxic, cytotoxic, hepatotoxic and genotoxic, I would rather have my children if I had any, take NEITHER of these substances.

Now, if heroin was as legal as alcohol, with no stigma attached and produced in pharmaceutical labs with 100% purity, I'd rather have them come with me to the pharmacy, buy a dirt cheap bottle of sweet heroin like in the olden days, and have a pleasant night with this soulful, empathetic substance, than getting wasted on alcohol, doing embarrassing things they can't remember the day after, destroying their liver and drinking bit by bit their brain cells away every time they touch this crappy substance called ethanol.
Or perhaps buy a gram of refined, cured Opium and pass around the pipe while sitting around a camp fire telling stories to each other? I much prefer my children to do that than drink alcohol. There you have my answer. Brutally honest...

It is downright irresponsible IMO to talk about opioids in such a positive way.

It is downright ignorant and brainwashed IMO to talk about opioids in such a negative, prejudiced and purely ideologically driven way.

There, debunked every nonsense that you have spouted...

P.S.: I find it disgusting how the media and people are (ab)using Matthew Perry's death to push their anti-opioid ideology and make it even harder for people to get access to them! Absolutely disgusting! Let this man rest in peace!

 

[Whitey69]

Which just further begs the question what can we do about the government killin folks. I suppose it needs its own thread

 

[burn out]

That has nothing to do with what I'm saying about opioid abuse.

I'm not spreading lies / misinformation.

Cannabis is relatively harmless; opioids are not.

I don't think anyone in this thread has even suggested that opioids are cardiotoxic.

I have to disagree with you here. The harms of cannabis don't make the news as much because it doesn't leave a trail of bodies in its wake, but cannabis has been far more harmful to me and my life than opiates and I'm a former IV heroin addict.

I honestly look at opium and cannabis as similar in terms of harm potential. Of course I'm not talking about heroin/fentanyl when I say this because that's more akin to injecting synthetic cannabinoids than smoking cannabis. But if we were to compare smoking cannabis and smoking opium, I think they are fairly comparable in terms of risks. The opium is more likely to cause a serious physical dependence and the cannabis is more likely to exasperate psychological problems like anxiety and depression. Fatal overdose by smoking opium would be extremely rare, assuming it was not being combined with other substances so this epidemic of overdoses is actually caused by playing around chemically with the opium plant and the laws that make it easier to access these super potent synthetics than actual opium.

Anyway, maybe I should have responded to the post you were originally quoting since my point is that the harms of cannabis are not BS. There is a lot of cannabis abuse happening now among young people and it will not be without negative consequence.

 

[burn out]

Where should I start with a text that is just reeking with ignorance from top to bottom? Let's do it one by one.


You are entitled to your own opinion of course, but do not project it to others and assume they ought to view it the same way you do.


It has ruined lives because of prohibition and all the consequences that have arisen out of it. The issue isn't the substance, it's all the nasty consequences that exist BECAUSE it is illegal. No opioid addict would perceive his addiction as problematic (much less as having "ruined" their lives as you say) if opioids were legal, and no, this won't result in an out of control addiction "epidemic". That is anti-drug propaganda for people with a brain that is in the developmental stage of a primary school child.
Back when Opium was legal only a small portion of the US population became addicted because the overwhelming majority of people simply do not have a desire or need to do drugs. Legality and ease of access to chemical precursors would ensure a massive supply of opioids that any chemistry student could produce en masse, which in turn would result in dirt cheap prices, resulting in addicts not having to worry anymore about how and where to get money to feed their habit. Money is the issue and not the addiction. If you're a multi-millionaire you can have an oxy habit for the rest of your life and never run into any trouble simply because you can afford a 600mg/day habit.

This proves to me that the problem isn't addiction. All the troubles that we have today in regards to opioids stem from prohibition and the consequences that arise out of it, from the stigma to the astronomical costs of these drugs. I can buy a gram of heroin in afghanistan for laughable 2€, but here in Germany I have to pay at least 15x to 20x the amount to greedy pushers which is absolutely ridiculous. No dope fiend would ever perceive his addiction as a problem if he had to put only 2€ for a gram of nearly 100% pure heroin on the table. No more running around through half the city trying to look for shit to steal. He could work a normal job, advance in his career, raise a family and nobody would even suspect that he's hooked, just like up to the early 20th century. Shit, if dope was that cheap I'd be high 24/7 AND work as an entrepreneur AND look for a partner AND be able to invest surplus capital into stocks, bonds and real estate funds. Life would be totally different for me. It would be different for all addicts, so don't come here telling us that opioids have ruined lives when clearly they have not. My life has been ruined by stupid, fucking people and their prejudices, and not a substance that is not the least bit toxic.


That's like trying to blame water for Matthew Perry's death because he died of drowning. That's the same crappy logic those reddit-tier answers imply.


Nobody struggles with opioid addiction, they struggle with a system that makes life for an opioid user as hard as it can be, all the while telling him that the only right way to live is a sober life (and since that is not possible ad infinitum due to the nature of addiction, the addict will be continuously depressed and suffers from low self-esteem), stigmatizing him to the status of a lowlife junky, jailing him for the possession of a substance that he depends on because his body doesn't produce enough endogenous opioid peptides (the reason he craves opioids in the first place) and thus criminalizing a perfectly reasonable act of self-medication, doctors taking away pain med scripts abruptly and thereby forcing already dependent people to seek their pain med on the illicit market, the astronomical prices arising out of the nature of the black market, eventually forcing the addicted person to commit crimes, and so on and so forth...THAT is what people here struggle with and NOT opioids. I LOVE opioids but I HATE the system that makes possession of my medication a criminal act. THIS is what I suffer from. This is what every opioid addict suffers from, but unfortunately many addicts including rich people who can easily afford them, have been indoctrinated with the "sobriety religion".

I think it's a shame Perry spent millions of dollars on expensive rehab programs instead of spending it on private doctors who could have prescribed him some good ass opioids. He would have done well on them. I think all those private rehab clinics are really nothing but money making businesses who prey on people's fears and their feelings of shame that has been drilled into their head by society . They offer the same shit that public rehab clinics do, with the only exception that they couch you into a nice looking, comfy environment and charge astronomical $$$ for it. Then you relapse, come back and the whole process repeats itself. That guy honestly should have just spent his money on a good, discrete private doctor. But you see, that's what happens when people suck up this whole puritanical ideology of having to be sober in order to be ok...which leads to feeling depressed all the time because you know that you're not sober. I find these ideas to be a whole lot more damaging than the drugs themselves to be honest.
Those are all the things that we suffer from and not from opioids. And ALL of that shit stems from prohibition and a culture of puritanical fanaticism.


Heroin doesn't harm people's lives. The toxic cuts and its illegal status and the stigma attached to its use is what harms people's lives and NOT freaking heroin.

Still believe that heroin causes harm and suffering? Well, read this:
>>The magazine Leopard, which is published in Scotland near Aberdeen, has discovered that the entourage of Queen Victoria and its hangers-on in the Churchill, Rothschild, and other clans "put in regular orders" with a local pharmacy "for opium, heroin,and cocaine."<<
Source: https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/...0910_047-yes_the_british_royals_did_use_d.pdf

Strange, isn't it? Strange how all these people managed to lead highly successful lives despite doing biiiiig, baaad, eeeevil heroin. How is it that they haven't suffered, and struggled despite having been addicted just as much as we are? Well, it's simple: the suffering is caused by a lack of money. The aforementioned people were all swimming in money! That is where the struggle or lack of struggle really comes from!

Nope. Wildly varying purity (which again, is a result of prohibition) and polydrug use is what is responsible for a massive percent of total ODs and not the opioid itself. Show me one person who takes pure, pharmaceutical opioids without mixing them with other depressants who has ODd from them (excluding suicide attempts)?

Says who exactly? You? Who are you to tell others how they should use psychoactive substances?
Also, the word "recreational" opioid use is actually misleading. People who use opioids "recreationally" are seeking the antidepressant effect of opioids because they obviously struggle from depression and other mental ailments, which can be seen as a kind of emotional pain, and since opioids are not just effective physical pain killers, but also kill emotional/psychological pain effectively (and have been used in the past for such psychiatric disorders very successfully for thousands of years with no opioid "epidemic"), what we call "recreational" opioid use is simply self-medication by triggering the euphoric response of opioid substances. See, it's very simple: the physical pain patient seeks out that which has the most reliable analgetic potential and the psychological/emotional pain patient (unfortunately not seen as such by modern society and instead as a "junky") seeks out that which has the most reliable euphoric potential.



The answer is very simple: given that heroin is illegal and carries due to its prohibitionary status so many risks associated with the legal system and financial risks due to its connection to the black market, and given that alcohol is even in the smallest amounts neurotoxic, cytotoxic, hepatotoxic and genotoxic, I would rather have my children if I had any, take NEITHER of these substances.

Now, if heroin was as legal as alcohol, with no stigma attached and produced in pharmaceutical labs with 100% purity, I'd rather have them come with me to the pharmacy, buy a dirt cheap bottle of sweet heroin like in the olden days, and have a pleasant night with this soulful, empathetic substance, than getting wasted on alcohol, doing embarrassing things they can't remember the day after, destroying their liver and drinking bit by bit their brain cells away every time they touch this crappy substance called ethanol.
Or perhaps buy a gram of refined, cured Opium and pass around the pipe while sitting around a camp fire telling stories to each other? I much prefer my children to do that than drink alcohol. There you have my answer. Brutally honest...


It is downright ignorant and brainwashed IMO to talk about opioids in such a negative, prejudiced and purely ideologically driven way.

There, debunked every nonsense that you have spouted...

P.S.: I find it disgusting how the media and people are (ab)using Matthew Perry's death to push their anti-opioid ideology and make it even harder for people to get access to them! Absolutely disgusting! Let this man rest in peace!

I fundamentally agree with you that it's the laws that lead to opioids ruining so many lives and I appreciate your passion. However, I think you would get your point across better if you avoided making what many will justifiably see as absurd statements such as:

"No opioid addict would perceive his addiction as problematic (much less as having "ruined" their lives as you say) if opioids were legal, and no, this won't result in an out of control addiction "epidemic" and "Nobody struggles with opioid addiction".

That's simply not true. Even before there were laws against opiates, people became addicted to opiates and struggled with their addictions and had great difficulty in quitting. Why do you think opiates were illegalized in the first place?

They can and do cause health issues in some people with long term use and people can decide they want to stop using them for various reasons and yet find it incredibly difficult to do, even when they have access to an unlimited supply.

I am a former IV heroin addict. Like you point out numerous times in your post, I regard most of the negative things that happened to me as a result of this addiction as being to due to the laws surrounding these substances and not the substances themselves. I began using heroin during a very painful period in my life when I was suffering extreme pain from protracted benzo withdrawals and the heroin genuinely helped me feel better and allowed me to get some of my life back. I don't regard my heroin use at the time as a wholly negative thing and just wish it hadn't so expensive and illegal.

However after years of heroin usage, the heroin itself began to have negative effects. I stopped getting the euphoric and motivating feelings I got in the early years and instead I would feel depressed and sedated after using heroin. I also began to experience excessive respiratory depression. Even despite the negative effects it was having on me, quitting wasn't easy. You cannot simply the dismiss the negative effects opiates can have on their own, nor the difficulty in ceasing use. They can damage health just by themselves, although obviously the laws make everything 1000 times worse. However, I should say that I don't regard my experience with opioid addiction as "ruining my life". Opioid addiction is actually a manageable condition that can be recovered from or maintained and the reason it is perceived as being so serious are the laws that lead to so many deaths. Opiate addiction itself, is by no means a death sentence.

 

[Hexenstahl]

That's simply not true. Even before there were laws against opiates, people became addicted

You have misunderstood my statement then. I have never said that people didn't become addicted. I only said that addiction wouldn't be perceived as an issue if those who are dependent on their medication could easily afford it. They only struggle because society keeps drilling into their head that being dependent on the most effective antidepressant is somehow an issue, while drinking a toxic liquid that was never intended for human consumption, but for conservation, is "okay". Just look at the euphemisms surrounding alcohol. "Social" drinking, "social" lubricant, "tongue loosener", etc...those are absurd things and not what I have said.

They can and do cause health issues in some people with long term use

Those aren't health issues, those are simply entirely reversible endocrinal dysregulations that cease to exist upon either a) stopping opioid use or b) making use of novel substances like ultra low dose naltrexone which gets rid of almost all side effects that I know of. I have pointed this out earlier in this thread in connection to the often occuring OIH.

and people can decide they want to stop using them for various reasons and yet find it incredibly difficult to do

Yes, they find it difficult because they do not understand WHY they are actually dependent. The reason they have initially, subconsciously gravitated towards opioids in the first place (what expressed itself as mere innocent curiosity actually had a much deeper, neurobiological reason) is because opioid addicts suffer from a lack of endogenous opioid peptides being produced in their synaptic cleft. The exogenous consumption of opioid substances is therefore the brain's natural attempt to counter this lack of production. This is what modern medicine fails to see, and therefore opioid addiction is seen as a "disease" (truly absurd), rather than the body's attempt at self-medication. Our ancestors knew this and that is why they never in the history of humanity have prohibited its use, until the 1930s. Our entire approach to addiction medicine is based on completely false presuppositions and therefore fails. You are trying to fight against your own neurobiology (which is always bound to fail) and that is why sobriety never lasts ad infinitum.

Why do you think opiates were illegalized in the first place?

They were prohibited for purely religiously motivated reasons (puritanical movement that arose out of the calvinists) on the one hand, and profit driven motives on the other hand (the pharmaceutical industry wanted to have sole monopoly on the production of opioid medication and wanted to take that power away from individual, decentralized, family owned pharmacies that operated independently from each other). There was never a rational cause behind prohibition. This anti-drug movement was always driven by the pharmagiants and their useful idiots which happened to be religious people (surprise, surprise).

I am a former IV heroin addict.

Me too, so what? Why do people always point that out as if that means something. Oh look, I am a former heroin addict that used to slam that shit into his veins, so my opinion bears some heavy weight guys. Y'all better listen to me...

Anyway, gotta go to the maintenance clinic now and get my new script. Have a nice one...

Hexenstahl

 

[Frog Dreams]

@burn out

Hey, yeah I didn't word things perfectly.

Marijuana has caused me a lot of harm too. I said relatively harmless. It can't kill you. There is no LD50. It's also unlikely to result in jail or (temporarily) destroy your relationship with your family.

As for opioids ruining your life, I didn't mean beyond repair. So - yeah - ruin your life isn't the right way to express what I was trying to say. I say that heroin ruined my life. I mean when I was on it, it was ruining my life. I rapidly went down a bad path. I don't mean it did me so much damage that it is still ruining my life 10 years later.

As for opium, it's pretty hard to come by in Australia. I've never heard of anyone smoking opium. So - practically speaking - opioids have a detrimental effect. In theory, if you had a cheap never-ending supply of high quality opium it might be comparable to marijuana... but that's unlikely to happen in my neck of the woods.

Not a lot of posts on here about anyone smoking opium.

Practically speaking (which is all I care about), you are likely to cause yourself more harm if you become addicted to opioids than if you become addicted to marijuana.

I mean, assuming the opium supply isn't never ending, then what? The user will probably move on to H or synthetics.

Withdrawal from opium is also much worse (I imagine?) than withdrawal from marijuana.

I, too, was a heroin addict and a methadone addict. The withdrawals are utterly horrible from both, but the latter - for me - was much worse.

It doesn't matter if the harm comes from it being illegal. It doesn't matter if the harm comes from a lack of purity. That is the practical reality. It is part of the reality of becoming addicted to opioids.

Practically speaking, I stick to my original statement:

Cannabis is relatively harmless; opioids are not.

@Hexenstahl

I have little to no interest in continuing the discussion with you after your last post.

You are speaking for Matthew Perry. You are speaking for me (as a former H / methadone addict).

As burn out said, many of the statements that you made are absurd.

You also repeatedly insulted me, to which I take no offence.

Heroin doesn't harm people's lives.

As I said earlier, you are downplaying the dangers of heroin. This is a harm reduction forum.

You are entitled to your own opinion of course, but do not project it to others and assume they ought to view it the same way you do.

All I did was state my own opinion. I didn't insult your intelligence. I'm not projecting anything.

I have wasted enough time in this thread. Clearly this is not going to go anywhere productive.

You have proved my point.

Have a good one.

 

[Hexenstahl]

You are speaking for Matthew Perry.

I am not. I merely said that I think how he would have been better off without the sobriety cult. You and all the other anti-opioid ideologists however do want to speak for him. This man has died and you are using his death to push your own views on others, which I find utterly disgusting. Deny it all you want, but it's the truth and everyone can see it...

You are speaking for me

I am NOT! As I said: you are entitled to your own opinion.

As burn out said, many of the statements that you made are absurd.

burn out's statement was based on a misunderstanding of what I tried to convey with my message. I already explained in my last comment to him why he misunderstood me, you however still seem to not have grasped it. Or perhaps you are willfully ignorant and intentionally misunderstanding me because you like to think that my statements are absurd (interestingly you completely fail to elaborate WHY exactly those statements are absurd, which is itself unironically absurd). Completely ignoring all the arguments I have made by simply saying "absurd" is intellectually lazy and a cop-out answer. If you can't defend your own positions you should be mature enough to be open for change.

You also repeatedly insulted me

Where have I insulted you? Btw, anybody here on the forum who knows me, is aware of the fact that I treat NOBODY with kid gloves and I state my views in a passionate way because that is who I am. Some people can't handle that and thus feel insulted. Nothing I can change about that, except give you the advice to be less sensitive. These topics are emotionally loaded and can become a bit fiery, but you shouldn't feel insulted because I state my views in an energetic way and most importantly call a spade a spade. So when I spot a stupid comment, I will point out why I think it is stupid. If you feel personally insulted by that...well, the internet is the wrong place for you then.

to which I take no offence

You wouldn't have pointed that out if you took no offense. Sorry if I have a hard time believing you ;-)

As I said earlier, you are downplaying the dangers of heroin. This is a harm reduction forum.

You are talking in circles. xtcgrrrl has already tried to explain to you why we are NOT downplaying the dangers of opioids (interesting how you are reducing this discussion to heroin) and how you don't need to tell us that this is a harm reduction forum as we are perfectly reducing harm by telling people how to safely use drugs, instead of preaching to them why drugs are bad and shouldn't be used (which has NEVER EVER worked), as this will cause them to do drugs out of spite and oftentimes do it the wrong way and ultimately harm themselves that way. There is something called reverse psychology. The more you tell someone "do not", they more and the harder they will do it out of spite. I have personally seen someone die of gangrene because people refused to show that person how to properly shoot up when she came to us and asked how to inject heroin. She was a first time user and dead set on doing smack. No warning in this world prevented her from doing it and it never will with these kind of people. To this day I blame myself for not being there that day, because if I had been there I would have been the first one to show her how to properly mainline to avoid exactly that kind of catastrophic result!

Don't you come here and tell ME what harm reduction is. I created the safer injection thread which thanks to Nurse Ratchet is pinned now to the top of the basic drug subforum. I KNOW from 12 years of daily experience with all kinds of drug users that preachy warnings have NEVER prevented someone from trying drugs and especially not from trying it the way they want, and THAT is why I have posted the safer injection handbook and videos on how to prepare, why and how a wheel filter should be always used, what to avoid, etc. and I'm always here to help someone do it the right way to prevent as much harm as possible.
So I'm the first one to abide by the unwritten rules of harm reduction to help as many people as I possibly can.

All I did was state my own opinion.

And all I did was tell you why I think how your opinion is bs. If you can't handle that you shouldn't enter discussions, leave this forum and perhaps join one of the circle jerking anti-drug subreddits where everyone keeps telling each other how morally upright they are for being anti, anti, and totally anti. Yeah, we have seen how that has helped in the past, right?

I didn't insult your intelligence.

Never said or even insinuated that you are insulting my intelligence.

I'm not projecting anything.

You absolutely are. You might wanna read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection and after you're done do some self-reflection.

I have wasted enough time in this thread.

Good, bye bye.

Clearly this is not going to go anywhere productive.

The arrogance of that statement. "Oh no, this discussion is not going into the direction that I want. How dare these people aren't corroborating MY absolutely correct worldview. I will leave now as they aren't worthy of my wisdom!".
This is what you are basically saying between the lines...

P.S.: just to avoid further misunderstanding: I am NOT saying nobody should be sober. Sobriety is indeed the right thing for SOME people, but it shouldn't be pushed down people's throat as if that is the only right thing to do and the only right way to live and be happy, because it is evidently not.

 

[Frog Dreams]

Sigh. Okay. I will respond, despite being in this exact situation a million times and knowing nothing good will come of it. Your tone indicates as much.

...

You are speaking for me and Matthew Perry and everyone else who has ever used heroin, by making statements like the following

Nobody struggles with opioid addiction

THAT is what people here struggle with and NOT opioids.

The toxic cuts and its illegal status and the stigma attached to its use is what harms people's lives and NOT freaking heroin.

I have struggled with the drugs themselves and so have many others I know. You can't tell us we haven't struggled.

You're not saying "I haven't struggled with opioid addiction." You're saying nobody has. You are speaking for me and Matthew Perry and many other people.

I think it's a shame Perry spent millions of dollars on expensive rehab programs instead of spending it on private doctors who could have prescribed him some good ass opioids. He would have done well on them.

Again, here, you're speaking for him. He wrote a book about his addiction struggles, but I guess he's wrong about how he feels?

I guess I'm wrong?

I'm not telling you how you feel.

including Matthew Perry's

That's like trying to blame water for Matthew Perry's death because he died of drowning. That's the same crappy logic those reddit-tier answers imply.

You took this out of context. I didn't say he died from opioid abuse. I said (earlier) that drug use (not specifically opioids) are a likely factor in his premature death given his history and shouldn't be discounted. What you quoted above was me indicating that the drugs ruined his life... not that they killed him. He had millions of dollars. He wasn't slamming street drugs. He was taking pharmaceutical grade opioids. He says in his book it ruined his life and his career and he regrets it.

burn out's statement was based on a misunderstanding of what I tried to convey with my message. I already explained in my last comment to him why he misunderstood me, you however still seem to not have grasped it. Or perhaps you are willfully ignorant and intentionally misunderstanding me because you like to think that my statements are absurd (interestingly you completely fail to elaborate WHY exactly those statements are absurd, which is itself unironically absurd). Completely ignoring all the arguments I have made by simply saying "absurd" is intellectually lazy and a cop-out answer. If you can't defend your own positions you should be mature enough to be open for change.

I have never said that people didn't become addicted. I only said that addiction wouldn't be perceived as an issue if those who are dependent on their medication could easily afford it.

No, that's not what you said.

You said this:

Nobody struggles with opioid addiction

It's a reckless thing to say on a harm reduction website. Retract it, if you like... but that's what you said.

Perhaps it was a mistake?

Strange, isn't it? Strange how all these people managed to lead highly successful lives despite doing biiiiig, baaad, eeeevil heroin. How is it that they haven't suffered, and struggled despite having been addicted just as much as we are? Well, it's simple: the suffering is caused by a lack of money. The aforementioned people were all swimming in money! That is where the struggle or lack of struggle really comes from!

Matthew Perry is a millionaire.

The world would be better off without recreational opioid use.

Says who exactly? You? Who are you to tell others how they should use psychoactive substances?

I am merely stating my opinion.

Where have I insulted you?

reeking with ignorance from top to bottom... people with a brain that is in the developmental stage of a primary school child... downright ignorant and brainwashed... disgusting... you are using his death to push your own views on others, which I find utterly disgusting... intellectually lazy... If you can't defend your own positions you should be mature enough... And all I did was tell you why I think how your opinion is bs. If you can't handle that you shouldn't enter discussions, leave this forum and perhaps join one of the circle jerking anti-drug subreddits... Absolutely disgusting!

I don't care if you think you successfully got under my skin. You're a random person on the internet angrily ranting at me. You don't have the ability to upset me. I typically don't continue to engage with discussions when they descend into this emotional name calling territory because I have better things to do with my time. I am 100% sure all of what I have written here is pointless.

The arrogance of that statement. "Oh no, this discussion is not going into the direction that I want. How dare these people aren't corroborating MY absolutely correct worldview. I will leave now as they aren't worthy of my wisdom!".
This is what you are basically saying between the lines...

Nope. I don't disagree with you about the system, but that has zero bearing on whether or not opioid abuse is harmful in itself. Saying it's not harmful and it is entirely the system is what I disagree with, not that the system contributes to the harm. The drug is harmful. So is the system. There is no reason countering something I agree with.

Never said or even insinuated that you are insulting my intelligence...

Not saying you did. I'm saying that you are doing it to me and I am not doing it to you.

You talk about me being less sensitive / being triggered, but I'm not the one who's getting emotional here.

Don't you come here and tell ME what harm reduction is. I created the safer injection thread which thanks to Nurse Ratchet is pinned now to the top of the basic drug subforum. I KNOW from 12 years of daily experience with all kinds of drug users that preachy warnings have NEVER prevented someone from trying drugs and especially not from trying it the way they want, and THAT is why I have posted the safer injection handbook and videos on how to prepare, why and how a wheel filter should be always used, what to avoid, etc. and I'm always here to help someone do it the right way to prevent as much harm as possible.
So I'm the first one to abide by the unwritten rules of harm reduction to help as many people as I possibly can.

I never said you're not contributing positively to harm reduction, but you are definitely posting stuff ITT that is not harm reduction... But, again, maybe you misspoke. I clarified some things I said in response to burn out above. I don't have the time or motivation to ensure that every sentence I type is perfect.

You are talking in circles. xtcgrrrl has already tried to explain to you why we are NOT downplaying the dangers of opioids

With all due respect to her, I don't care what she said because obviously I disagree. You are blatantly downplaying the dangers.

I have personally seen someone die of gangrene because people refused to show that person how to properly shoot up when she came to us and asked how to inject heroin.

You keep making assumptions about me. I believe in teaching people to safely use needles. I also believe in discouraging use and being honest about dangers.

I used drugs intravenously for 15 years. I still have a copy of the safe injecting handbook on my bookshelf.

You keep trying to educate me about things I already know and already agree with.

the problem isn't addiction

There is no "the problem". There are multiple problems.

Clearly many people have issues with addiction when it comes to opioids and other drugs (including alcohol).

Deny it all you want, but it's the truth and everyone can see it...

There you go speaking for other people again.

anybody here on the forum who knows me, is aware of the fact that I treat NOBODY with kid gloves and I state my views in a passionate way because that is who I am

There is a difference between being passionate and being aggressive / rude.

Unless the tone of our interaction dramatically changes, this will be the last post I direct towards you.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Fucking nailed it! @Hexenstahl

It's just too bad every single one of your valid points will go in one ear & out the other with these types of people.
They will continue to push lies & ignorance despite providing them with logic, perspective & facts.


All Frog Dreams can do for rebuttal is twist people's words into things they didn't say or aren't doing because he doesn't actually have any genuine rebuttals or facts.
Just hyperbole & complete ignorance.

I appreciate your passion. Drug reform will never happen unless people like you & I keep speaking out against it.

Making drugs "controlled substances" and then punishing people for using them is a crime against humanity IMHO.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Swiss study in a prison population.
15 years of heroin assisted treatment.

Zero adverse health outcomes.

Fifteen years of heroin-assisted treatment in a Swiss prison—a retrospective cohort study - Harm Reduction Journal

Background In the context of the current US opioid crisis and the compelling fact that a quarter to a third of all those addicted to heroin pass through its prisons and jails each year, the care of incarcerated opioid-using individuals (OUI) needs to be improved. Aims Little has been published...

harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com

"The primary objective was to investigate whether heroin-assisted treatment was associated with severe detrimental health outcomes. The secondary objective was to compare the heroin-assisted treatment group with the general prison population in terms of occupational functioning."

"No serious heroin-related medical complication occurred during the 15-year window of observation among inmates with heroin-assisted treatment. Their work performance was comparable to that of the reference group."

 

[Hexenstahl]

All Frog Dreams can do for rebuttal is twist people's words into things they didn't say or aren't doing because he doesn't actually have any genuine rebuttals or facts.
Just hyperbole & complete ignorance.

Which is exactly why I won't reply to his last comment, even though I could very easily debunk every single thing he wrote. I know exactly how these type of people tick. You say something, they make a circular argument, you debunk that circular argument -> they keep making the same circular argument, and this continues on and on and on...it's a never-ending spiral that you can't win against. He says I am speaking for other people...well, if those other people agree with my statements by liking it, doesn't it mean that I justifiably am speaking on behalf of them? Lol.

I appreciate your passion. Drug reform will never happen unless people like you & I keep speaking out against it.

Yeah, we need passion to win this fight. The reason we have been losing for so many decades is precisely because we have been so apathetic. It's time we channel our emotions and put it into a productive direction. I absolutely believe that there is such a thing as wholesome, righteous anger. What is it with society these days telling everybody to not get angry? They want everybody to swallow strong feelings just because individuals like him don't know how to handle it. I'm not going to communicate like an emotionless robot. That's just not who I am. My friends and family have always told me that they like me precisely because of that. They like me because I am a real character. I don't wear a mask. I am intense and I don't give a fuck if someone doesn't like it and feels insulted by it. I'm not going to change just because someone is overly sensitive.

Making drugs "controlled substances" and then punishing people for using them is a crime against humanity IMHO.

WORD!!!

Swiss study in a prison population.
15 years of heroin assisted treatment.

Zero adverse health outcomes.

Fifteen years of heroin-assisted treatment in a Swiss prison—a retrospective cohort study - Harm Reduction Journal

Background In the context of the current US opioid crisis and the compelling fact that a quarter to a third of all those addicted to heroin pass through its prisons and jails each year, the care of incarcerated opioid-using individuals (OUI) needs to be improved. Aims Little has been published...

harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com

"The primary objective was to investigate whether heroin-assisted treatment was associated with severe detrimental health outcomes. The secondary objective was to compare the heroin-assisted treatment group with the general prison population in terms of occupational functioning."

"No serious heroin-related medical complication occurred during the 15-year window of observation among inmates with heroin-assisted treatment. Their work performance was comparable to that of the reference group."

Frog dreams will probably either completely ignore this or somehow find a way to twist this and make it look like heroin is still harmful, despite the study proving otherwise. There it is, everything frog dreams said about heroin being supposedly harmful (without providing any evidence for it) COMPLETELY debunked by this swiss study!

 

[Man67]

How did you quit subs, taper or sublocade? I’m having pretty bad mental effects to and I almost wish I went with methadone. I use tele health though I doubt they prescribe it, they’ve been trying to get me sublocade for a month but it’s a whole beaurocratic nightmare from what I can see . Maybe I’ll just do a intense taper and be done with it. My moms funding my subs, I tried to get her to give me cash and let me use some low dose oxy to get off the blues but she wasn’t for it, probably won’t like me trying to use those to get off subs either lol .

I was tapering and got from 8 to 0 in about 3 months. I couldn't do it slowly because I was on the edge of S. My Dr. prescribed me some antidepressants and they helped a bit but I had to wait about 5 weeks until they start working. Good luck mate!

 

[Man67]

Good to see you are 6 months in. Last we spoke you were 3 months in. Remember, it will pass. For me, I woke up and randomly felt half as bad, and the next day it was gone. Relief unrivaled. 9 months.

Keep going man.

I also got some B12 shots and it helped a bit. Hopefully l will get there. Thanks for the support mate. All the best.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

Which is exactly why I won't reply to his last comment, even though I could very easily debunk every single thing he wrote. I know exactly how these type of people tick. You say something, they make a circular argument, you debunk that circular argument -> they keep making the same circular argument, and this continues on and on and on...it's a never-ending spiral that you can't win against. He says I am speaking for other people...well, if those other people agree with my statements by liking it, doesn't it mean that I justifiably am speaking on behalf of them? Lol.


Yeah, we need passion to win this fight. The reason we have been losing for so many decades is precisely because we have been so apathetic. It's time we channel our emotions and put it into a productive direction. I absolutely believe that there is such a thing as wholesome, righteous anger. What is it with society these days telling everybody to not get angry? They want everybody to swallow strong feelings just because individuals like him don't know how to handle it. I'm not going to communicate like an emotionless robot. That's just not who I am. My friends and family have always told me that they like me precisely because of that. They like me because I am a real character. I don't wear a mask. I am intense and I don't give a fuck if someone doesn't like it and feels insulted by it. I'm not going to change just because someone is overly sensitive.


WORD!!!


Frog dreams will probably either completely ignore this or somehow find a way to twist this and make it look like heroin is still harmful, despite the study proving otherwise. There it is, everything frog dreams said about heroin being supposedly harmful (without providing any evidence for it) COMPLETELY debunked by this swiss study!

Totally agree!
From my perspective, we are talking about allowing & not allowing people to feel certain ways in their own bodies & minds. Which means a lot of people don't get to have the quality of life they deserve. Not to mention the hypocrisy of it all.

I can drink myself to death legally, but using heroin so I can be a better functioning adult makes me a "junkie". The drug war has done it's job in really conditioning people to be completely against people exercising their right to bodily autonomy. It shouldn't be anyone's business what I put in my body if I'm not hurting anyone else. And I'll never shut up about the fact that opioids are less toxic on the body than many legal products. I'm gonna fight for what I believe in & what is right.

I vibe well with you Hexenstahl, cause I see these same traits in you & who you are. We are real people, who aren't gonna blindly follow the crowds. Especially crowds that don't like facts & haven't engrossed themselves into this topic like we have.

I'm pretty sure there are more studies out there too other than the Swiss one.
There use to be an Australian site called "drug truth" where they tested the hypothesis of "opioid overdose" and they overdosed people intentionally on methadone & heroin. And all of them survived (they had a tolerance though of course). But it showed that people with tolerances could still handle massive doses of heroin/methadone. They came to the conclusion that the real causes of overdoses is usually from a mixture of drugs, including opioids, but death from opiates alone in a person with a decent tolerance was a rare occurrence. This site & all of it's valuable information just completely disappeared about a year or two ago. I think it was called "Drug Truth Australia" or something like that. Wish it were still around.

 

[Hexenstahl]

It shouldn't be anyone's business what I put in my body if I'm not hurting anyone else.

Yeah exactly. Why does anyone care what I put into my body when it doesn't potentially endanger anyone else? People should be more worried about individuals on alcohol in public. Plenty of times drunk people started shit, ended up hurting others (un)intentionally, or have the great idea to start driving a car while under the influence which puts even more people at danger. They should worry more about that.

This site & all of it's valuable information just completely disappeared about a year or two ago. I think it was called "Drug Truth Australia" or something like that.

Maybe try searching for that site on the wayback machine. It's basically a kind of google which has archived almost all the pages that have disappeared over time and cannot be found anymore.

P.S.: the term "Opiophobia" should become a thing in my opinion. It totally meets all the criterions of a pathologic fear. It is irrational, it is persistent and it generally cannot be gotten rid of ("be gotten rid of" sounds strange...is that grammatically correct? Please correct me if I make mistakes btw.) by appeals to logic and common sense. I recently had this idea of perhaps writing a book about the current anti-opioid sentiment and how much damage it has caused around the world with the title "Opiophobia" or "The Opiophobic Madness". I plan on incorporating statistics from both modern times as well as historical data, and also maybe some passages from the book "Opioids in mental illness" that I recently showed you. Really strong arguments that can convince people, especially those who are completely ignorant since they are the majority, of how opioids really are not the devil they were made out to be and can in fact benefit society as a whole.

Perhaps we can co-author such a book if you like. It gives me a sense of doing something for a higher purpose and actually feels therapeutic for some reason. I feel like it is important to do something like this, because we (especially the USA) are heading towards really dangerous times where this mass psychosis could be exploited by opiophobic politicians to pass laws in order to make it completely impossible to get opioids at all. I can totally see a complete ban in the US as a possibility. Ofc the only ones who will have an exception are the elites (as always). These elites and their unfair privileges. I'll write you a PM about this once I have outlined a rough structure about how the book should be written.