What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[euphoria100%]

is it possibe a batch of mdma that came 90% purity from the lab is bunk??

 

[SpiralusSancti]

is it possibe a batch of mdma that came 90% purity from the lab is bunk??

no

 

[unodelacosa]

is it possibe a batch of mdma that came 90% purity from the lab is bunk??

Depends on how reliable and competent the lab in question is. Assuming competency and correct results, I would guess it to be somewhat unlikely. But let's say the other 10% in question is mostly something like 3,4-MDDMA + 3,4-MDTMA, both of which act primarily as 5-HT reuptake inhibitors, and both of which have been recovered in samples of illicit MDMA. Then yes, it's possible that these compounds might prevent MDMA from working and it would do so similar to SSRI anti-depressants which also prevent MDMA's primary effects. That said, I wouldn't necessarily consider them wholesale "bunk".

 

[user666]

...hydrates are less prone to dissolve in water and, consequently, they usually exhibit lower bioavailability, which is an obvious disadvantage in terms of their therapeutic applications [15].

I can agree with the lower bioavailability of some solid polymorphic forms but these crystalline forms cease to exist once the crystals are dissolved in water.
Are you claiming that the solution of 3,4-MDMA.HCl in water can exist in more than one form ? ...depending on the polymorphic form of the solute before dissolution?

 

[Rectify]

No, it only exists in 2 forms:

And

Also, the N can be protonated or not, depending on the strength of pH and pKa.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

They're talking about crystal structure not molecular structure

No, it only exists in 2 forms:

And

Also, the N can be protonated or not, depending on the strength of pH and pKa.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

They're talking about crystal structure not molecular structure

They are talking about crystal structure in water/blood so…sad, ain’t it?

 

[unodelacosa]

They are talking about crystal structure in water/blood so…sad, ain’t it?

Yeah no @Rectify realizes this, I'm sure. To be more precise, technically we're discussing the crystalline structure of racemic 3,4-MDMA.hydrochloride. Obviously, this is a water-soluble drug salt that easily goes 100% into aqueous solution in the body. The drug oil is not going to do that. Well, technically since stomach acid is hydrochloric acid, the body's first-pass metabolism would just convert it to the water-soluble drug salt if the drug oil were ingested orally. Meanwhile the melting point is too high and too close to the boiling point to facilitate vapor inhalation.

Also, obviously other acids besides hydrochloric acid will form drug salts w/MDMA, but HCl is the most common and the best one for providing a cheap, efficient, and effective low-molecular-weight acid for protonating the amine. And regardless, the crystalline form the drug salt takes is not going to affect its pharmacodynamics. Think of it like this: doesn't matter if you use regular table salt or large-grained kosher salt, for example. Once it goes into a glass of water, either salt will give you the same result: it's gonna make a glass of saltwater that will taste and act exactly the same.

I think most of us here already know this. Sorry if it's ridiculous for me to state such an obvious thing, but if there were any confusion I wanted to clear it up. So why the different crystalline forms? In the case of kosher salt, the larger grained salt is more effective for curing meat (including kosher cuts, hence the name). In the case of MDMA (again, technically MDMA.hcl), recrystallizing is a form of purification in organic chemistry. Meanwhile forming the aesthetically pleasing large contiguous crystals is a means of marketing the drug product as a supposedly pure form (despite the fact that co-crystallizing cutting agents can be used as a diluent).

 

[indigoaura]

Around that time in the U.S.—roughly the decade following 9/11—was this huge budget going to virtually all law enforcement, a response to the terrorist attacks. From the Feds to the State Police, municipal level city cops to sheriffs, deputies and county jails… they all got to spend a bunch of freshly allocated, Clinton-administration, Federal-budget-surplus on S.W.A.T. gear, K-9 units, flash grenades, and task force shit. And what do these frat boy jocks wanna do once they have all this shit? Well, they wanna play with their new toys, of course. A lot of us were arrested during that spell, self included, and so your hunch about court-imposed retirement is, unfortunately, probably pretty astute in most cases. Hopefully not with your buddy though


For one, there is emphasis through repetition. For two, don't take it so personally. I've already told you in the past that I admire your intellect and I appreciate all the effort you've put into these threads. But I'll repeat myself again here for emphasis and remind you of this See? It is not meant as an insult.

Further, when I say "as long as you understand… " I should've clarified I didn't mean you, per se, but rather the individual taking up that point of view in this discussion. A lot of times I write things on here for the benefit of future readers and generations not just the person to whom I'm replying. For serious, please don't take offense. None was intended, I assure you. I think it's important to word things carefully to avoid confusion. If things are worded poorly, ppl take the wrong message and spread bad intel. Sorry if it was annoying. And yes, I realize the hypocrisy and irony that I myself likely poorly communicated these points before…


Ok, that's fine that you feel that way, but that doesn't make it so, no offense. This applies to me, as well, to be fair. For example, I think there should be term limits for members of U.S. Congress. Doesn't make it true, but I feel like it should be that way.

It's probably helpful for us all to be on the same page, definition-wise. From wikipedia (bold mine):


To be fair, we could distinguish between impurities that are synthetic side-products and those that are deliberately added diluents, but Idk it would do much good, though I suspect this is ultimately what you're driving at with this, no? And again: forgive me if this at all seems pedantic, or as though I have anything but respect for you, @indigoaura. I want to be clear about that. It is not my goal to offend or disrespect people. Thanks for hearing me out

Oh yeah, btw, did you guys see any news about the website, https://drugchecking.berlin/ ? Lotta demand for it, and they're reporting pretty shitty things, evidently… https://djmag.com/almost-50-tested-drugs-berlin-given-warning-status-new-programme

Sorry for the delay. I have not been on here much recently.

I want to be clear about what I meant though, because I also value specificity.

When I said, "I personally feel like MDMA + impurities is different from a similar compound that may be misidentified as MDMA by lab testing."

What I meant is that MDMA + an impurity (which could be either an accidental impurity due to the synthesis method used, or an added impurity) is one issue. From my research, those impurities have the potential to interrupt MDMA at the receptor level. You could send this sample to IEC, and they would say it was 90% MDMA and not even identify what the impurities were (and those impurities would exist in the unidentified 10%).

Another totally separate issue would be a different compound that is similar to MDMA but is NOT MDMA at all. However, due to the lab limitations as well as the similarity, it APPEARS TO BE MDMA to the lab. This could be a situation where the chemist knew that he was not making/providing MDMA and intended to misrepresent the compound to the public. To me, this is not an impurity issue, and it is also not an impurity issue according to the definition you posted, because the parent compound is pure but is NOT MDMA. I saw evidence of this phenomenon in some of the research articles I posted where compounds (regioisomers etc) were being mid-identified by lab testing. In this scenario, IEC would also say the sample was MDMA, but it would not actually be MDMA.

As for the IEC reports, they are shit, but I can share them. Which one are you looking for specifically? They don't show much of anything. Some of the communication with IEC where they performed some additional advanced testing was never provided to me in a report; it was provided in communication via email.

 

[indigoaura]

Fuck ya brother, that’s some good info right there.

As it says in the article you linked, up until their screening only 1 anhydrous polymorph was identified. I believe the last person to even look was Shulgin. With this “new” (to me lol) information we can now look at the polymorph theory once again.

I remember anhydrous forming “orthorhombic” crystals and hydrated forming diamond like parallelogram crystals.

Now next step is finding some form of pharmacological data on each anhydrous polymorph to see what’s what. But I’m going to assume like you that MAPS has zeroed in on the correct “magic” polymorph.

-GC

This MAPS article was posted in the original thread back when it was released in 2020. I thought there were quite a few really eyebrow raising quotes in the article.

What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

Opinions please... I'm quarantined in my house and have literally been stuck here since early March. Not going to follow the 3 month rule right now. Whatever. There is some extreme boredom happening here. So, next time I roll (prob in another 2 weeks or so), I am going to change a variable...

bluelight.org

What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

Not necessarily. The cut or contaminant can be very very potent. This way, a low proportion e.g. 1:100000 of a high potency contaminant would make it very hard to detect while still allowing it to exert its effect on the nervous system. This is not far fetched, there are substances which are...

bluelight.org

To those arguing that everything is the same once it is dissolved...

What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

Science madness isn't the hive dude. U can't just rockup and ask about clearly illegal schedule 1 drug chemistry.scimadness is a mix of all sorts of chemistry.drugs aren't really looked down on there except by the few stuffy brainwashed stiffs who just happen to also be amateur chemists.a lot of...

bluelight.org

 

[MedicinalUser247]

Should good MDMA cause dizziness ? You know... The good kind of dizziness.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Should good MDMA cause dizziness ? You know... The good kind of dizziness.

Dazines you mean I assume?

As in dazed and confused?

It can be kind of dizzy on come up of stronger doses. Honestly I’m not sure dizzy is right word. But you say good kind of dizzy so I guess yes

 

[unodelacosa]

Should good MDMA cause dizziness ? You know... The good kind of dizziness.

Generally no, not really but there is typically some small loss of coordination for me. It doesn't make me dizzy, per se, but it does make my movements a little off-kilter and I tend to be about 10% less confident if I'm out somewhere dancing. @SpiralusSancti has it right, and I agree: "I'm not sure dizzy is the right word". Perhaps light ataxia? Idk.

The cure for this, of course, is dosing LSD, which gives my dancing confidence a +10% boost in the ~100 - 300 µg range. After that: all bets are off.

Ketamine, on the other hand, can give me the spins.

To those arguing that everything is the same once it is dissolved...

Are you arguing otherwise? Crystals are no longer formed when they are dissolved in water. You cannot have any polymorphs, or any crystal form whatsoever, if they are dissolved in solution. When a compound dissolves, its individual molecules or ions become uniformly distributed in the solution. The specific crystal structure is no longer relevant as the substance is now in a molecular or ionic form dispersed throughout the solvent.

However, crystal polymorphism can affect the dissolution rate of a compound. Different crystal forms may dissolve at different rates due to variations in surface area or crystal lattice energy. This could lead to slightly different dissolution profiles, but once fully dissolved, the compound behaves the same regardless of its previous crystal form.

In practical terms, for many applications, what matters most is the stability of the compound rather than its solubility w/r/t crystal polymorphism. This is how it affects the pharmaceutical industry in terms of drug patents.

While there are polymorphic forms of some drugs that can affect their pharmacodynamics, MDMA generally exists as a racemic mixture, and polymorphism probably does not play a significant role in its effects. I think what you're referring to is how the bioavailability of certain compounds can be negatively impacted if one of its polymorphs is resistant to dissolution in the body. The rate at which this occurs can affect things sometimes, though generally I don't think this is the case with hydrophilic compounds like methamphetamine.hcl and 3,4-MDMA.hcl, both of which rapidly and copiously dissolve in H₂O. The primary factors influencing MDMA's pharmacodynamics are dosage, individual differences in enzyme profile, and external factors like environment and mindset, as you know.

Check this out. You might find this interesting ☞ Clinical pharmacology of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, "ecstasy"): the influence of gender and genetics (CYP2D6, COMT, 5-HTT)

Of relevance to the discussion: MDMA, methamphetamine, and CYP2D6 pharmacogenetics: what is clinically relevant? To wit: "The fraction of metabolic clearance regulated by CYP2D6 for both drugs is substantially lower than expected from in vitro studies. Other isoenzymes of cytochrome P450 and a relevant contribution of renal excretion play a part in their clearance. These facts tune down the potential contribution of CYP2D6 polymorphism in the clinical outcomes of both substances. Globally, the clinical relevance of CYP2D6 polymorphism is lower than that predicted by in vitro studies."

 

[MedicinalUser247]

Dazines you mean I assume?

As in dazed and confused?

It can be kind of dizzy on come up of stronger doses. Honestly I’m not sure dizzy is right word. But you say good kind of dizzy so I guess yes

Well... I guess they call it "Roll" for a reason.

 

[G_Chem]

Generally no, not really but there is typically some small loss of coordination for me. It doesn't make me dizzy, per se, but it does make my movements a little off-kilter and I tend to be about 10% less confident if I'm out somewhere dancing. @SpiralusSancti has it right, and I agree: "I'm not sure dizzy is the right word". Perhaps light ataxia? Idk.

The cure for this, of course, is dosing LSD, which gives my dancing confidence a +10% boost in the ~100 - 300 µg range. After that: all bets are off.

Ketamine, on the other hand, can give me the spins.


Are you arguing otherwise? Crystals are no longer formed when they are dissolved in water. You cannot have any polymorphs, or any crystal form whatsoever, if they are dissolved in solution. When a compound dissolves, its individual molecules or ions become uniformly distributed in the solution. The specific crystal structure is no longer relevant as the substance is now in a molecular or ionic form dispersed throughout the solvent.

However, crystal polymorphism can affect the dissolution rate of a compound. Different crystal forms may dissolve at different rates due to variations in surface area or crystal lattice energy. This could lead to slightly different dissolution profiles, but once fully dissolved, the compound behaves the same regardless of its previous crystal form.

In practical terms, for many applications, what matters most is the stability of the compound rather than its solubility w/r/t crystal polymorphism. This is how it affects the pharmaceutical industry in terms of drug patents.

While there are polymorphic forms of some drugs that can affect their pharmacodynamics, MDMA generally exists as a racemic mixture, and polymorphism probably does not play a significant role in its effects. I think what you're referring to is how the bioavailability of certain compounds can be negatively impacted if one of its polymorphs is resistant to dissolution in the body. The rate at which this occurs can affect things sometimes, though generally I don't think this is the case with hydrophilic compounds like methamphetamine.hcl and 3,4-MDMA.hcl, both of which rapidly and copiously dissolve in H₂O. The primary factors influencing MDMA's pharmacodynamics are dosage, individual differences in enzyme profile, and external factors like environment and mindset, as you know.

Check this out. You might find this interesting ☞ Clinical pharmacology of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, "ecstasy"): the influence of gender and genetics (CYP2D6, COMT, 5-HTT)

Of relevance to the discussion: MDMA, methamphetamine, and CYP2D6 pharmacogenetics: what is clinically relevant? To wit: "The fraction of metabolic clearance regulated by CYP2D6 for both drugs is substantially lower than expected from in vitro studies. Other isoenzymes of cytochrome P450 and a relevant contribution of renal excretion play a part in their clearance. These facts tune down the potential contribution of CYP2D6 polymorphism in the clinical outcomes of both substances. Globally, the clinical relevance of CYP2D6 polymorphism is lower than that predicted by in vitro studies."

Interesting that MDMA alone makes dancing harder for you, for me it’s the opposite. Then adding LSD only ups my game.

Just rolled last night and absolutely shredded the dancefloor to pieces.

-GC

 

[SpiralusSancti]

However, crystal polymorphism can affect the dissolution rate of a compound. Different crystal forms may dissolve at different rates due to variations in surface area or crystal lattice energy. This could lead to slightly different dissolution profiles, but once fully dissolved, the compound behaves the same regardless of its previous crystal form.

Coupled with usually low purity most of the world is doing, yet everyone think their street drugs are 99% or something, simply dissolving purified xtals in water or juice or something should take care of any, potential yet incredibly unlikely effect of polymorphism.

Hell even Shulgins gave it dissolved to patients or friends. First “healers” also did. And even some ravers used to swear by dissolving xtals and more so pills to make it hit faster and better. Might all be placebo, might be if it’s taken in solution more is absorbed trough mouth or might be something third.

 

[MedicinalUser247]

Well... I can imagine dancing wile your on X, but dancing on acid ? No, On acid I would just be sitting there listening to the music. Or "Riding the Music".

 

[unodelacosa]

Interesting that MDMA alone makes dancing harder for you, for me it’s the opposite. Then adding LSD only ups my game.

Just rolled last night and absolutely shredded the dancefloor to pieces.

-GC

Yeah MDA gives me no issues for dancing, even when I'm rocked on that shit, which is weird… I can take Sassy no problem, but her sister Molly will have me tipsy on the floor. Molly wants to talk more than dance most times, which is why, to me, MDMA is best taken at a house party where conversation is facilitated. LSD, 2C-B, Colour, Allylescaline, et al. are for going to clubs, raves & festivals (small to moderate doses). And K-holes are for the afterparty.

Hell even Shulgins gave it dissolved to patients or friends.

I think that's because Sasha insisted that they all taste it as a part of the experience. He wanted people to taste the compound in order to better know it, so to speak. I know Darrell Lemaire had machined his own single-punch rotary tablet press machine at some point, though. You know, Shulgin didn't actually make every one of those compounds in PiHKAL and TiHKAL. That was the story of course, and he certainly did synthesize some of the compounds, and dreamt up others, but he had quiet lab partners who couldn't take any credit for anything legally, so they kept all under Shulgin's name and his special agreement license with the Bureau of Narcotics and then the DEA which replaced that Bureau.

If the compound in question took a little bit of time, agitation, and surface area to dissolve in H₂O I might be more inclined to agree here. But that's not the case. Most MDMA hydrochloride will dissolve rapidly and readily in water with little to no agitation. Perhaps with pressed tablets, this might not be the case as much, but all the same. For me, I roll hardest on a nearly empty stomach and after having had a spoonful of baking soda in water or a few antacids or something else to make my pH high and increase bioavailability.

On acid I would just be sitting there listening to the music. Or "Riding the Music".

But dancing is almost literally "riding the music" when you're on LSD. Just give it a shot. Not talking about whilst tripping balls to the wall, just a nice one or two tabs kinda trip. It is magnífico

 

[G_Chem]

Yeah MDA gives me no issues for dancing, even when I'm rocked on that shit, which is weird… I can take Sassy no problem, but her sister Molly will have me tipsy on the floor. Molly wants to talk more than dance most times, which is why, to me, MDMA is best taken at a house party where conversation is facilitated. LSD, 2C-B, Colour, Allylescaline, et al. are for going to clubs, raves & festivals (small to moderate doses). And K-holes are for the afterparty.


I think that's because Sasha insisted that they all taste it as a part of the experience. He wanted people to taste the compound in order to better know it, so to speak. I know Darrell Lemaire had machined his own single-punch rotary tablet press machine at some point, though. You know, Shulgin didn't actually make every one of those compounds in PiHKAL and TiHKAL. That was the story of course, and he certainly did synthesize some of the compounds, and dreamt up others, but he had quiet lab partners who couldn't take any credit for anything legally, so they kept all under Shulgin's name and his special agreement license with the Bureau of Narcotics and then the DEA which replaced that Bureau.

If the compound in question took a little bit of time, agitation, and surface area to dissolve in H₂O I might be more inclined to agree here. But that's not the case. Most MDMA hydrochloride will dissolve rapidly and readily in water with little to no agitation. Perhaps with pressed tablets, this might not be the case as much, but all the same. For me, I roll hardest on a nearly empty stomach and after having had a spoonful of baking soda in water or a few antacids or something else to make my pH high and increase bioavailability.


But dancing is almost literally "riding the music" when you're on LSD. Just give it a shot. Not talking about whilst tripping balls to the wall, just a nice one or two tabs kinda trip. It is magnífico

Lol so funny I’m complete opposite.. MDA will have me get lost in a conversation where next thing I know it’s been a couple hours and I missed all the good sets MDMA much more a dance drug. But they both are amazing for connecting with people in their own way. MDA also is hit or miss with dancing in that I might just melt to the ground.

-GC

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Well... I can imagine dancing wile your on X, but dancing on acid ? No, On acid I would just be sitting there listening to the music. Or "Riding the Music".

You would surely change your mind given right place, music and dose. If you love dancing on emphatogens you would almost certainly learn to love dancing on psychedelics.

Yeah MDA gives me no issues for dancing, even when I'm rocked on that shit, which is weird… I can take Sassy no problem, but her sister Molly will have me tipsy on the floor. Molly wants to talk more than dance most times, which is why, to me, MDMA is best taken at a house party where conversation is facilitated. LSD, 2C-B, Colour, Allylescaline, et al. are for going to clubs, raves & festivals (small to moderate doses). And K-holes are for the afterparty.


I think that's because Sasha insisted that they all taste it as a part of the experience. He wanted people to taste the compound in order to better know it, so to speak. I know Darrell Lemaire had machined his own single-punch rotary tablet press machine at some point, though. You know, Shulgin didn't actually make every one of those compounds in PiHKAL and TiHKAL. That was the story of course, and he certainly did synthesize some of the compounds, and dreamt up others, but he had quiet lab partners who couldn't take any credit for anything legally, so they kept all under Shulgin's name and his special agreement license with the Bureau of Narcotics and then the DEA which replaced that Bureau.

If the compound in question took a little bit of time, agitation, and surface area to dissolve in H₂O I might be more inclined to agree here. But that's not the case. Most MDMA hydrochloride will dissolve rapidly and readily in water with little to no agitation. Perhaps with pressed tablets, this might not be the case as much, but all the same. For me, I roll hardest on a nearly empty stomach and after having had a spoonful of baking soda in water or a few antacids or something else to make my pH high and increase bioavailability.

Ever tried MDMA with a bit of caffeine or amphetamine? Just a tiny bit is usually enough to make it dancey for me. But in fact so does combo with opiates or a bit booze. Ofc adding psychedelics changes experience totally unlike tiny dose of mentioned, sure not everyones cup of tea. I too find MDMA, especially dosed high a lot on the relaxing & melting & connecting but I ain’t a huge raver so that too is ofc personal preference.

As for Shulgin, yeah I know that. I still think using drug that’s already dissolved, even pure MDMA or equivalent in speed of dissolving in water can make a change, ofc not nearly as change of ROA but minutes can play a difference. As for pills, I won’t say I’m positive but almost that very hard presses compared to loose/chalky make some difference. I’ve noticed that very high dosed pills, usual in some parts of Europe tend to be very hard pills while “normal” about 120mg pills are usually not that hard. Tho if that’s intended or simply to be able to make 225mg pill about same size and weight (or at least not double) of one with 120mg of active stuff or there might be more to it. At some level again I won’t say I’m positive but again almost, you can bet that inactive ingredients in pill do make difference as they do with pharmaceuticals and make some people think some generic brand is stronger or better when in fact just absorbs at a bit different rate.

But what I was really aiming at with my previous statement is that MDMA of as low as 65% purity isn’t unknown on the market as xtals and less so in pills. Usually anything beyond 85% is considered very good stuff. Stuff that’s really in high 90% is more of a rarity than a common thing. Stated is correct for some periods and some places but I’m pretty sure stuff of exceptional purity still isn’t a norm in most places outside specific, not so big circles. With that in mind I assumed that purity of xtal can be low enough to really influence absorption.

I’ll conclude this by repeating that I’m yet to encounter mehDMA that can’t be purified enough to become fire stuff. I’ll admit that sometimes it seems that fire still can have a different flavour but that comes to fact that MDMA in a mix with other MDxx is not that rare either OR possibly even more common, MDxx is sold as MDMA. MDxx sometimes potentially being closer to it than MDA or MDEA etc. And to clarify that I don’t claim a bunch of MDMA is something close not real stuff but rare occasions I encountered mehDMA turned to fire with a bit of different flavour was usually the case. On occasion or two with xtals I had that confirmed, like once being a mix of MDMA and MDEA, and MDA is surely more common “cut”. I’m also open to that in unconfirmed MDxx maybe additional purification would remove “flavour” but usually 98 -99% is enough for any MDMA to be considered fire by everyone.