⫸Trans and LGBTQIA+ Discussion⫷

[Electrum1]

There are definitely irreversible effects there

 

[AlanaaBanana]

There are definitely irreversible effects there

In regards of puberty blockers or hormones?
I'm speaking strictly on puberty blockers. They are routinely given in cases of precocious puberty, all they do is just delay/block puberty from onsetting/continuing, as a "pause", no irreversible effects from that, take the patient off, they continue puberty as normal.

Hormones? Yes, there are some irreversible effects %100.

 

[mal3volent]

Genuine question @AlanaaBanana . If a biological male is put on puberty blockers at age 10-11 and let's say their puberty is paused for 6-7 years at which point they change their mind. Are you saying that even after that long period of time their physical development will eventually be identical to what it would have been if left unimpeded? I've always been curious about that. I can't see exactly how it would work...seems like the person would be lagging behind forever, no?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yeah, it's beyond reproach, for the kids who have been used, in this billion profit, industry.

You're seeing it backwards. Billion dollar industries responding to the trends of kids.

If there is anything guilty of influencing the amount of trans kids it's the internet. Not teachers, or rainbows, or beers, or clothing companies.... it's the internet. The examples you see of super lib parents guiding their children into it are extremely rare, one in a million.

The monetary exploitation is actually reactive not causative.

Too many conservative older folks don't seem to understand the difference.

You can't point to anything physical and say "this is turning normal kids into trans kids!".

It's the internet zeitgeist and, what I surmise, is a side effect of human evolution around computers. I'd expand on this but I'm too tired maybe tomorrow.

 

[AlanaaBanana]

Genuine question @AlanaaBanana . If a biological male is put on puberty blockers at age 10-11 and let's say their puberty is paused for 6-7 years at which point they change their mind. Are you saying that even after that long period of time their physical development will eventually be identical to what it would have been if left unimpeded? I've always been curious about that. I can't see exactly how it would work...seems like the person would be lagging behind forever, no?

Excellent question. Once they stop taking the blockers, it's expected that puberty would then commence as per the individual's biological sex, provided no other interventions (like gender-affirming hormone therapy) are undertaken, psycho-therapy is one of the treatments alongside this, the decision to undergo hormone therapy or to be taken off is usually made a few years in, after psychiatrists/therapists as with the physician have decided the patient is ready to either stop or continue.

There ARE risks associated with starting blockers early on in puberty, and those risks should be deeply considered more by health professionals. And more research I believe should be done, to look into cases such as your question more.

The Endocrine Society has a nice write up on this, on how they usually go about Gender Affirming Care in those ages.
https://www.endocrine.org/patient-e...r-and-gender-diverse-children-and-adolescents

 

[Asclepius]

I think you got me wrong.

However, I think it's industry responding to (internet-data) demand. It's algorithmic data-driven demand & Industry response to a profit yielding market (& lobbied politicians yielding to industry funding). It's top-down.

The internet is mental, data-fed industry has responded to it.
I don't think it's evolutionary; if anything it could be considered a 'trans-humanistic' wet-dream' of a few deviants tech-industry, billionaires with a lot of power & their own, egoistic agendas that have grown this - read up on it, outside link, below .

https://ifamnews.com/en/transhumanism-liberation-from-humanity ( it's super fucking creepy how, many ex- priests happen to be involved in the legal & policy making elements of these movements, but non- critical, repressed, conformity/authority-driven, 'droid' -type, personalities, seem to make good recruits for power- structures; history repeats itself)

Also, collating my nuanced stance, with other BLers isn't valid; just because I post in a particular thread; doesn't allign my perspective, with all and sundry there, that post their specific views... & vice versa.

 

[Las Veghost grower]

Genuine question @AlanaaBanana . If a biological male is put on puberty blockers at age 10-11 and let's say their puberty is paused for 6-7 years at which point they change their mind. Are you saying that even after that long period of time their physical development will eventually be identical to what it would have been if left unimpeded? I've always been curious about that. I can't see exactly how it would work...seems like the person would be lagging behind forever, no?

My instinct tells me that person will forever be deformed….

 

[Asclepius]

You're seeing it backwards. Billion dollar industries responding to the trends of kids.

If there is anything guilty of influencing the amount of trans kids it's the internet. Not teachers, or rainbows, or beers, or clothing companies.... it's the internet. The examples you see of super lib parents guiding their children into it are extremely rare, one in a million.

The monetary exploitation is actually reactive not causative.

Too many conservative older folks don't seem to understand the difference.

You can't point to anything physical and say "this is turning normal kids into trans kids!".

It's the internet zeitgeist and, what I surmise, is a side effect of human evolution around computers. I'd expand on this but I'm too tired maybe tomorrow.

How do you define, a 'trans-kid', btw?

What age?
At what age do you define, that their identity should be formed?

For e.g. Should a feminine acting, male 4 year old/6 yr old, or twelve yr old be advised that because of their behaviour and/or perceived behaviour ( by adults or, their peers) that they should take puberty-blockers? Does that seem like a functional, idea to you as an adult, to tell a child that they should stop their hormonal and part of their metabolic system, based on whether they like pink & want to shimmy, to Miley Cyrus etc??


Or, alternatively a girl who is into more technical, toys, or alternatively a kid who doesn't show any of the stereotypical behaviours of stereotypical gender types...just put 'em on puberty- blockers/horomones - save some society the hassle of ambiguity, in kids! ...what lightweight, dumfuckery, us lazy-minded adults enable.

 

[Jabberwocky]

How do you define, a 'trans-kid', btw?

What age?
What age do you define their identity should be formed?

I have absolutely no idea, but >18 years old sounds reasonable.

Anyone who is <18 but feels more like a different gender sounds more like a confused teen to me. You should be at the very least 18 before you surgically remove any genitals.

I don't think anybody should try to define what a pubescent teen should be thinking, including the premise of the question.

I'm not trans l and am not going to attempt to describe what they go to through.

I don't understand it either, but that does not preclude me from understanding their situation.

For e.g. Should a feminine acting, male 4 year old/6 yr old, or twelve yr old be advised that because of their behaviour and/or perceived behaviour ( by adults or, their peers) that they should take puberty-blockers? Does that seem like a functional, idea to you as an adult, to tell a child that they should stop their hormonal and part of their metabolic system, based on whether they like pink & want to shimmy, to Miley Cyrus etc??

No rational adult of any political persuasion thinks we should give hormone blockers to a 6yr old boy who likes the color pink.

This is a false reality created by conservatives. It basically doesn't ever happen.

There are <10 child related surgeries per year, which is almost an inconsequential fraction on a 350 million population.

 

[Asclepius]

Why 18 yoa? What reason?

I understand (and empathise) your aversion to US Republican, fear-mongering, propoganda but where I'm from, it's just blanket BS, from Right leaning politicians with leftist, agendas - so I guess, context is relevant.

Transhumanism: Liberation from humanity?

Entrepreneur and lawyer Martine Rothblatt, an articulate advocate for both transgenderism and transhumanism, shows how the latter movement is the

ifamnews.com

 

[Jabberwocky]

Why 18 yoa? What reason?

No reason, just as arbitrary as the age of 18 is to die for your country or smoke/drink.

I understand (and empathise) your aversion to US Republican, fear-mongering, propoganda but where I'm from, it's just blanket BS, from Right leaning politicians with leftist, agendas - so I guess, context is relevant.

I have an aversion towards stupidity and illogical thinking, not Republicans or conservative values. I'm actually very moderate.

But if I make any argument that is deemed pro trans, suddenly I'm a communist liberal. Sad.

 

[Asclepius]

Why under, 18? What's that based on?


I empathise with your disdain for Republican fear-mongering propoganda in the US, but in Europe there are a majority right of centre, politicians posing with uber-liberal, views, that are beyond comprehension.

Trans-people are just people, like the rest of us - that's not my issue. My issue is the medical, political & social engineering around this, that has been hijacked by political, classes to distract & propogandise, to keep them in power in the context of where I live.

The crisis at the Tavistock's child gender clinic

A number of reports have raised concerns about the country's only NHS gender clinic for young people.

www.bbc.com

 

[Eligiu]

Tbh does it matter what category you fit into?
Isn't it one's own business who one fucks, or is attracted to, or has a relationship with..I don't understand why this is even, a thing, apart from voyeuristic interest. Surely, if you're exploring your sexuality, it's being actualised in RL & questions re. Insecurity re. same, are asked/else, some want to brag.

Can you enlighten me, cause it seems like you're not bragging ( maybe I'm wrong?)but trying to figure out, where you 'fit-in', and as far as I know, no one 'fits-in' , nor should they - you just find what works, what makes you whole ( which is a process; dynamic and involving a time-line), even if that isn't in a stereotypical concensus. Essentially, it's personal; when you are comfortable with who you are; it's not for trade; not for display or, show - it's yours.
Labels are for products; Fuck that!

I don't quite understand what you mean. I just meant that I realised why a certain description of my sexuality did not actually fit, because it's not who I was, and led me to discover who I was. Everyone has a label, if you are cisgender and straight you also have labels, they are just the norm and other ones are not. I am not trying to figure out who was, I know who I am and I was explaining why I was interested in men as a trans man, because Snafu asked if trans men were all into women or not. I was explaining my experience, as he specifically mentioned it would be good to hear a trans perspective. I know what my sexuality is, don't worry.

I'm actually stealth (not out irl) and post her because there is an absence of trans people actually speaking on this issue. Day to day it's not something that I bring up all that much unless it's relevant to the issue at hand.

I have absolutely no idea, but >18 years old sounds reasonable.

Anyone who is <18 but feels more like a different gender sounds more like a confused teen to me. You should be at the very least 18 before you surgically remove any genitals.

I don't think anybody should try to define what a pubescent teen should be thinking, including the premise of the question.

I'm not trans l and am not going to attempt to describe what they go to through.

I don't understand it either, but that does not preclude me from understanding their situation.




No rational adult of any political persuasion thinks we should give hormone blockers to a 6yr old boy who likes the color pink.

This is a false reality created by conservatives. It basically doesn't ever happen.

There are <10 child related surgeries per year, which is almost an inconsequential fraction on a 350 million population.

I knew who I was prior to being a teenager (in fact was identifying as male until I went to high school and had to 'grow up' and present as female). I absolutely wish I had been given access to puberty blockers and had been given the chance to prevent needing to spend $12k in surgery. No one is performing genital surgery on transgender minors, its against the law. If anyone is having anything done at 16, then it would be those with a long history of demonstrated dysphoria since childhood, who have been in long term counselling. It's very rare for that to happen. I have only ever heard of 18 year olds.

My question is always - how old were you when you realised what gender you were? Was it 18? Or were you younger? Because looking back on my life I knew, I just didn't have the right words. The reason more younger people are transitioning is exposure to people like me, they realise that trans men exist more than they used to.

Yes, more people are exploring their gender. Puberty blockers are not the big bad thing they're made out to be. I for one, would much rather a child be put on blockers for a couple years while they explore their gender and if they realise it isn't for them, know they can always come off the blockers and have things progress as they would normally have. But if that child does turn out to be trans, being on blockers is life saving.

There isn't anything wrong with children (and people, generally of any age) exploring how they want the world to refer to them which makes them the most comfortable. Even if I lived my life alone, in total isolation I still would have needed hormones and surgery because it is mu body that isn't right. People gendering me correctly is a secondary, outside reminder that either brings me down, or supports me.

I don't think hormones or puberty blockers should be thrown at a child because they like the colour pink either. I display feminine aspects of my expression (after transitioning, because I am a gender non conforming male) and that would basically erase gender non conforming people from existing. No, it's for kids who are trying to kill themselves or hurt themselves because their body is wrong and who have a tracable history of dysphoria. I can point to a laundry list of things I did as a child which were huge red flags for being trans back then, and my mum told me this year that if she knew what she did now when I was younger she would have taken me to see someone cause it was so obvious in retrospect. Even my grandma says I should have been given blockers.

But contrary to popular belief, people's life doesn't get easier when they transition. It gets much harder.

 

[Asclepius]

No reason, just as arbitrary as the age of 18 is to die for your country or smoke/drink.


I have an aversion towards stupidity and illogical thinking, not Republicans or conservative values. I'm actually very moderate.

Lol yeah, that's stupid but makes sense

If someone's going to subscribe to medical intervention it should ideally be when their brain development has reached its end - ideally - with current scientific evidence, that around 25.

Now, it's obviously, unfair if that's not a homogeneous, situation but at least, it fits the ' do no harm' ethic.

 

[Jabberwocky]

My issue is the medical, political & social engineering around this, that has been hijacked by political, classes to distract & propogandise, to keep them in power in the context of where I live.

Care to elaborate?

Because it sounds like you're referencing bullshit, like how dems love freebasing adrenochrome which helps them steal elections. Any drug nerd knows how ridiculous that is.

 

[Asclepius]

I don't quite understand what you mean. I just meant that I realised why a certain description of my sexuality did not actually fit, because it's not who I was, and led me to discover who I was. Everyone has a label, if you are cisgender and straight you also have labels, they are just the norm and other ones are not. I am not trying to figure out who was, I know who I am and I was explaining why I was interested in men as a trans man, because Snafu asked if trans men were all into women or not. I was explaining my experience, as he specifically mentioned it would be good to hear a trans perspective. I know what my sexuality is, don't worry.

I'm actually stealth (not out irl) and post her because there is an absence of trans people actually speaking on this issue. Day to day it's not something that I bring up all that much unless it's relevant to the issue at hand.


I knew who I was prior to being a teenager (in fact was identifying as male until I went to high school and had to 'grow up' and present as female). I absolutely wish I had been given access to puberty blockers and had been given the chance to prevent needing to spend $12k in surgery. No one is performing genital surgery on transgender minors, its against the law. If anyone is having anything done at 16, then it would be those with a long history of demonstrated dysphoria since childhood, who have been in long term counselling. It's very rare for that to happen. I have only ever heard of 18 year olds.

My question is always - how old were you when you realised what gender you were? Was it 18? Or were you younger? Because looking back on my life I knew, I just didn't have the right words. The reason more younger people are transitioning is exposure to people like me, they realise that trans men exist more than they used to.

Yes, more people are exploring their gender. Puberty blockers are not the big bad thing they're made out to be. I for one, would much rather a child be put on blockers for a couple years while they explore their gender and if they realise it isn't for them, know they can always come off the blockers and have things progress as they would normally have. But if that child does turn out to be trans, being on blockers is life saving.

There isn't anything wrong with children (and people, generally of any age) exploring how they want the world to refer to them which makes them the most comfortable. Even if I lived my life alone, in total isolation I still would have needed hormones and surgery because it is mu body that isn't right. People gendering me correctly is a secondary, outside reminder that either brings me down, or supports me.

I don't think hormones or puberty blockers should be thrown at a child because they like the colour pink either. I display feminine aspects of my expression (after transitioning, because I am a gender non conforming male) and that would basically erase gender non conforming people from existing. No, it's for kids who are trying to kill themselves or hurt themselves because their body is wrong and who have a tracable history of dysphoria. I can point to a laundry list of things I did as a child which were huge red flags for being trans back then, and my mum told me this year that if she knew what she did now when I was younger she would have taken me to see someone cause it was so obvious in retrospect. Even my grandma says I should have been given blockers.

But contrary to popular belief, people's life doesn't get easier when they transition. It gets much harder.

I personally never had a personal label (apart from government assigned & of course gender assigned )- but never took them seriously; never did; never will.

Sorry, life has gotten harder for you, hopefully you will overcome the bs, of life, at least.

 

[Eligiu]

Lol yeah, that's stupid but makes sense

If someone's going to subscribe to medical intervention it should ideally be when their brain development has reached its end - ideally - with current scientific evidence, that around 25.

Now, it's obviously, unfair if that's not a homogeneous, situation but at least, it fits the ' do no harm' ethic.

Really? Honestly if that were the case then shouldn't we make all medical interventions people need to be 25+ for? If a standard needs to be enforced for some reason then it needs consistency. I'm actually really conservative in my own community and I see people wanting to transition and I think should take time to think about it. But 18 is definitely old enough, imo. I did wait 2 years of living as male without hormones to be sure it's what I wanted though as it is a bit life choice.

 

[Asclepius]

Care to elaborate?

Because it sounds like you're referencing bullshit, like how dems love freebasing adrenochrome which helps them steal elections. Any drug nerd knows how ridiculous that is.

Lol I'm not fluent in US republican media speak, sorry mate.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Lol I'm not fluent in US republican media speak, sorry mate.

recognize the blessing.

 

[Eligiu]

I personally never had a personal label (apart from government assigned & of course gender assigned )- but never took them seriously; never did; never will.

Sorry, life has gotten harder for you, hopefully you will overcome the bs, of life, at least.

Well, you have a label, its just that your label is the default and you never had reason to question it. Mine wasn't right, so I did.

To clarify, my life got harder in terms of discrimination and people not respecting how I want to live my life when it doesn't affect them. My mental health re this issue has improved so much that it's the best decision I ever made and brings me a huge amount of joy, both seeing how I look now and finally feeling happy, and when other people refer to me as a man, I still get a rush of feeling this joy that was absent from my life as a female presenting person.

I don't experience dysphoria anymore. If I could pee standing up that would be the last thing ever needed for me and I can get around needing surgery for that by using an STP device, so that's sorted for me.

Still, the reason I posted here was to inform people having a genital preference and a sexuak preference isn't inherently transphobic, rather the ways people describe their preferences when it excludes a group for being part of that group, it can be and often is. But that even if they is the case no one has any obligations to have sex with a person they do not want to or find attractive.