Survival0200
Bluelighter
^Then there's carbamazpine, which doesn't come without issues either. I think there's some possible liver issues related.
-
🇬🇧 🇸🇪 🇿🇦 🇮🇪 🇬🇭 🇩🇪 🇪🇺
European & African
Drug Discussion
Welcome Guest!
Posting Rules Bluelight Rules -
EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari
EADD Benzo Discussion V. Waking up in a Wakefield skip
- Thread starter ordinary mind
- Start date
Fertile
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2022
- Messages
- 1,627
Yes - liver issues are a problem.
But it works,
If not, ask for clobazam (new to the US market). It's excellent as managing myoclonus and tonic-clonic seizures and is very safe. Also, in spite of being a banzo, it's a 1,5-benzodiazepine. That means that above 20mg, the effects plateau so taking 20 won't do more.
So cheap, so simple, so safe.
Smuck_Hey_Dee_Hewitt
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2021
- Messages
- 80
Is that a jk, mate? I once ( over a decade ago) booked an appointment with my GP in order to deal with one huge tolerance to strong, short acting benzos/hypnotics -came to a point I was IVing Midazolam/Loprazolam ( water soluble benzos basically ) along with gear back then -then proceed to take Alprazolam, Temazepam etc, etc all throughout the day .Nothing I´m proud of .It was what it was, back then . It´s just to provided some context of where I was at the time of these events -my state when I ,literally ,begged my GP to plan some taper schedule to wean me off that mess.
You know what his reply was ? : "it´s not common procedure to prescribe benzos in this country ! " ( needless to say he knew I was a Brown/White addict -the bias and double standards are incredible with some of these people. ).
It took me the NHS drug clinic´s resident Psychiatrist ,who was an extremely reasonable woman to put me on a diet of 30 mgs Diazepam and cutting back 5 mgs every fortnight - supervised ( just typing this cause some people out of the UK might just not have to take their prescribed drugs in the presence of the person who hands them over to you. ) ...needless to say this was Hell, only luck I had is that by increasing my juice/gear intake I´m able to manage the most nagging aspects of benzo withdrawal ( crippling anxiety and irrational fears in my case at least ) .
So , yes, you´re either joking or you are Royalty and use the UK´s fabled ( to us , the working class at least ) private sector .
As I re -read this ,the tone might sound a bit patronizing ,or you might assume that I´m calling you a liar -do not take it there, please. I´m just extremely curious to know how you managed to get 360mgs of Diazepam prescribed in the UK, that is about the size of it .
P.S. - By the way ...what type of "Tolerance " is that ? Made me feel like a pill popping dwarf in comparison .
Fertile
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2022
- Messages
- 1,627
No - I am being utterly truthful. MAYBE because of my seizures the doctor felt compelled to take action? Maybe because I wasn't using any other non-prescribed drug(s)? I don't know. But I know that my wife (who is a medicinal chemist) took a CDR full of references - thousands of references, so thousands of .PDF files. Enough to ¾ fill said CDR. So she explained HOW the calculation worked out and how the taper would be carried out.
In essence, she knew more than the GP. We both presumed that he either pretended to read those thousands of articles (and he did take the CDR home with him) or he simply agreed that something x10 the acute potency but with a duration some 50% longer than diazepam (due to highly active metabolites) WOULD work out at 360mg of diazepam (120mg TID) a day. But that dropped on a schedule that once again my wife composed said schedule.
I mean, it IS the appropriate calculation. The Ashton Manual is wrong in many places - but don't try to inform Heather Ashton; she was REALLY nasty when I pointed out that clibazam (a 1,5 benzodiazepine) wouldn't prevent abstinence syndrome in a patient dependant on a 1,4-benzodiazepine. They bind at different sites.
If you imagine this was some scam to get mashed on benzos, it was not. One detail was that my wife told the doctor that SHE would store the diazepam securely. Having someone with appropriate qualifications advocating for you can make a huge difference.
As for tolerance - at 24mg of diclazepam (12mg BID) the receptors are almost totally occupied so I'm guessing that extensive receptor internalization occurred. I'm also guessing that is why even a decade on, diazepam has little to no effect on me. Last year my wife found a couple of 2mg (red - bevelled with break-line) diclazepam tablets and gave them toe me. It seems diclazepam STILL works.
I imagine midazolam would be much worse due to he ROA and the short T½. I've never come across loprazolam so I cannot comment on that. But you MUST know how horrific benzodiazepine dependence is. At least you can buy codeine linctus in the UK and a bottle (600mg of codeine phosphate) for £10 will stop H withdrawal for 24 hours. I must have known every pharmacist in the city but with my bus pass and time, I could reach out 8-10 miles from the city centre so they would only see me once a month.
Not even alcohol will really stop a benzo rattle.
But don't forget that diclazepam has the 'largest area under the curve' of any 1,4-benzodiazepine I know of. AUC is a better way to express chronic potency. It's T½ is something like 4 days.
By tolerance I mean I started out taking 2mg BID and and after 12 months of daily use it took 12mg BID to achieve the same results.
I would wake at 9AM and work until 6.30PM, then I would go to bed and fall asleep asleep. So I was getting 15 hours of sleep. I might add that it DID have considerable antidepressant activity (which was the thing I needed the most) and considerable sedative activity.
I've known others get quite substantial doses of certain benzodiazepines if they present with specific symptoms. Severe myoclonus is DANGEROUS. That said, I didn't get on with clonazepam which is why I switched to clobazam. I still take 20mg BID I really did learn my lesson and wanted the safist and best medication Since clobazam binds at different sites (compare to other benzos) i still works.
My wife always refers to it as 'the quiet year' because I was either working or asleep. That is ALL I did for a year. She got on with her work and hobbies, I just skulked in my room.
BTW my secret to a happy marriage is to have separate bedrooms with the understanding that they are a 'private space'. She would microwave me a ready meal at 5.30 PM and bring it in. I worked as I ate and once replete, I would simply put on my (Victorian style) nightgown and nightcap and take myself to bed.
I do not remember ANY of that year. None of us live forever so losing a year isn't great. I mean, Vyvyan Snashall lost a whole decade because he was prescribed 10mg diazepam {QID] and drank on top of it. I don't think spirits, more likely beer... but imagine what 40mg of diazepam (and active metabolites) does to someone when they mix in 3-4 pints of cider.
In essence, she knew more than the GP. We both presumed that he either pretended to read those thousands of articles (and he did take the CDR home with him) or he simply agreed that something x10 the acute potency but with a duration some 50% longer than diazepam (due to highly active metabolites) WOULD work out at 360mg of diazepam (120mg TID) a day. But that dropped on a schedule that once again my wife composed said schedule.
I mean, it IS the appropriate calculation. The Ashton Manual is wrong in many places - but don't try to inform Heather Ashton; she was REALLY nasty when I pointed out that clibazam (a 1,5 benzodiazepine) wouldn't prevent abstinence syndrome in a patient dependant on a 1,4-benzodiazepine. They bind at different sites.
If you imagine this was some scam to get mashed on benzos, it was not. One detail was that my wife told the doctor that SHE would store the diazepam securely. Having someone with appropriate qualifications advocating for you can make a huge difference.
As for tolerance - at 24mg of diclazepam (12mg BID) the receptors are almost totally occupied so I'm guessing that extensive receptor internalization occurred. I'm also guessing that is why even a decade on, diazepam has little to no effect on me. Last year my wife found a couple of 2mg (red - bevelled with break-line) diclazepam tablets and gave them toe me. It seems diclazepam STILL works.
I imagine midazolam would be much worse due to he ROA and the short T½. I've never come across loprazolam so I cannot comment on that. But you MUST know how horrific benzodiazepine dependence is. At least you can buy codeine linctus in the UK and a bottle (600mg of codeine phosphate) for £10 will stop H withdrawal for 24 hours. I must have known every pharmacist in the city but with my bus pass and time, I could reach out 8-10 miles from the city centre so they would only see me once a month.
Not even alcohol will really stop a benzo rattle.
But don't forget that diclazepam has the 'largest area under the curve' of any 1,4-benzodiazepine I know of. AUC is a better way to express chronic potency. It's T½ is something like 4 days.
By tolerance I mean I started out taking 2mg BID and and after 12 months of daily use it took 12mg BID to achieve the same results.
I would wake at 9AM and work until 6.30PM, then I would go to bed and fall asleep asleep. So I was getting 15 hours of sleep. I might add that it DID have considerable antidepressant activity (which was the thing I needed the most) and considerable sedative activity.
I've known others get quite substantial doses of certain benzodiazepines if they present with specific symptoms. Severe myoclonus is DANGEROUS. That said, I didn't get on with clonazepam which is why I switched to clobazam. I still take 20mg BID I really did learn my lesson and wanted the safist and best medication Since clobazam binds at different sites (compare to other benzos) i still works.
My wife always refers to it as 'the quiet year' because I was either working or asleep. That is ALL I did for a year. She got on with her work and hobbies, I just skulked in my room.
BTW my secret to a happy marriage is to have separate bedrooms with the understanding that they are a 'private space'. She would microwave me a ready meal at 5.30 PM and bring it in. I worked as I ate and once replete, I would simply put on my (Victorian style) nightgown and nightcap and take myself to bed.
I do not remember ANY of that year. None of us live forever so losing a year isn't great. I mean, Vyvyan Snashall lost a whole decade because he was prescribed 10mg diazepam {QID] and drank on top of it. I don't think spirits, more likely beer... but imagine what 40mg of diazepam (and active metabolites) does to someone when they mix in 3-4 pints of cider.
Bleaney
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2021
- Messages
- 1,682
Does anyone know which benzo, next to etizolam, is meant to be the most forgiving in terms of tolerance/dependance and withdrawl etc?
I've been taking etiz most days every week for a couple of years or so now. Despite my best efforts my dose has gradually crept up to almost 2mg. But it certainly does seem to be true about how forgiving the depedance and withdrawl profile is. On the off days the worse symptoms I get are insomnia (admittedly that is extremely bad), plus a bit of rebound anxiety, but no extreme anxiety rebounds, no real physical cravings, no twitching or anything nasty like that.
Pretty sure I wouldn't get away so lightly with any other benzo.
But what would be the next best benzo in these regards, for use until I can get some Etiz again?
Hopefully it won't be that long until I do. I may be getting back on those dreaded DNms soon to see what is available on there. I would be surprised and disappointed if it turns out that etizolam is not readily available on there.
I'm going to try Clonazepam to begin with. Mainly because it seems to be one of the few benzos on the clearnets at the moment that regulary seems to be tested as genuine most of the time by Wedinos. PLus it is good for anxiety and not too sedating. I liked Lorazepam for the odd day here and there but I've heard bad things about the withdrawls people get if they end up using it for the longer term.
I've been taking etiz most days every week for a couple of years or so now. Despite my best efforts my dose has gradually crept up to almost 2mg. But it certainly does seem to be true about how forgiving the depedance and withdrawl profile is. On the off days the worse symptoms I get are insomnia (admittedly that is extremely bad), plus a bit of rebound anxiety, but no extreme anxiety rebounds, no real physical cravings, no twitching or anything nasty like that.
Pretty sure I wouldn't get away so lightly with any other benzo.
But what would be the next best benzo in these regards, for use until I can get some Etiz again?
Hopefully it won't be that long until I do. I may be getting back on those dreaded DNms soon to see what is available on there. I would be surprised and disappointed if it turns out that etizolam is not readily available on there.
I'm going to try Clonazepam to begin with. Mainly because it seems to be one of the few benzos on the clearnets at the moment that regulary seems to be tested as genuine most of the time by Wedinos. PLus it is good for anxiety and not too sedating. I liked Lorazepam for the odd day here and there but I've heard bad things about the withdrawls people get if they end up using it for the longer term.
Last edited:
Smuck_Hey_Dee_Hewitt
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2021
- Messages
- 80
You are spot on . Not being registered in one of those drug rehab centers, thus , instantly having your info shared with your GP helps -a LOT ( learned that the hard way -you can imagine the desperation of leaving an appointment where you can barely look at people in the eye -everything´s amplified basically -good old benzo withdrawal charged with no assured prospect of sorting yourself out any soon ...or at all even ).
I´m not even going to expand more on my withdrawal cause I can´t even begin to think in your tolerance´s terms ...you having lost "just" 1 year to that type of mad tolerance is beyond my comprehension nonetheless. I tip my hat to you ,honestly .
As for mitigators ... as I said ,a mix of juice/gear (speedballing ) and skol 9% somehow kept me ,not only semi functional (enough to keep a 9 to 5 at least ) , but also from seizuring (obviously not advocating this for a multitude of reasons, one being Skol 9% (and K (cider ) are comparable to benzos/gear imho ...I do not know what it is about them which makes them way more addictive than spirits to me ( and many others) .
( Speak of "mitigators " ) Really should had started this reply by addressing both your missus status in life/tolerance towards your options; the nature of the relationship which you reveal (and both tolerate ) ...that , that is the real " Mitigator" right there.
I´m not even going to expand more on my withdrawal cause I can´t even begin to think in your tolerance´s terms ...you having lost "just" 1 year to that type of mad tolerance is beyond my comprehension nonetheless. I tip my hat to you ,honestly .
As for mitigators ... as I said ,a mix of juice/gear (speedballing ) and skol 9% somehow kept me ,not only semi functional (enough to keep a 9 to 5 at least ) , but also from seizuring (obviously not advocating this for a multitude of reasons, one being Skol 9% (and K (cider ) are comparable to benzos/gear imho ...I do not know what it is about them which makes them way more addictive than spirits to me ( and many others) .
( Speak of "mitigators " ) Really should had started this reply by addressing both your missus status in life/tolerance towards your options; the nature of the relationship which you reveal (and both tolerate ) ...that , that is the real " Mitigator" right there.
Fertile
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2022
- Messages
- 1,627
Clobazam.
fastandbulbous
Bluelight Crew
I'd have said deschloroetizolam, as it seems to be the aromatic group (thiophene in etiz/deschloroetiz) as opposed to phenyl in just about every other benzo I've read about. Unfortunately, deschloroetizolam doesn't seem to be licenced anywhere, so it's dependant on grey market sources.
Bleaney
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2021
- Messages
- 1,682
OK thanks guys.. Those 2 mentioned seem very rare though. Deschloroetizolam is confirmed as being so by F and B. I've never seen either for sale anywhere.
My bad though for poorly wording my question, as I didn't properly say what I meant, which was, 'which easily, or relatively easily available benzo, (maybe on the clearnets) is next best to etiz for milder 'discontinuation syndrome', and things like that?'
Or are they all pretty much the same, excluding etizolam, deschloroetizolam, and clobazam?
My bad though for poorly wording my question, as I didn't properly say what I meant, which was, 'which easily, or relatively easily available benzo, (maybe on the clearnets) is next best to etiz for milder 'discontinuation syndrome', and things like that?'
Or are they all pretty much the same, excluding etizolam, deschloroetizolam, and clobazam?
Last edited:
Fertile
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2022
- Messages
- 1,627
Again - clobazam will help because it's chemically different so it binds at different sites (it's a 1,5-benzodiazepine. Your body won't have ANY clobazam tolerance or dependence. So it means you can manage the discontinuation of whatever it is your taking.
It won'[t be super comfortable BUT you should be able to function (it will help with anxiety and stop risk of seizures) and it's got a long duration.
I am NOT selling clobazam nor do I know where to obtain it (apart from my doctor) BUT I used it to kick a large benzo habit.
But F&B is correct if you want a 1,4-benzodiazepine. His selection is the best of the class.
It won'[t be super comfortable BUT you should be able to function (it will help with anxiety and stop risk of seizures) and it's got a long duration.
I am NOT selling clobazam nor do I know where to obtain it (apart from my doctor) BUT I used it to kick a large benzo habit.
But F&B is correct if you want a 1,4-benzodiazepine. His selection is the best of the class.
Clobazam
is that a brand name and if so whotf came up with it?
all i see is
”clobber”…zam
(i think clobber might be a british term, but it basically means to beat you up)
so some pharmace company called their benzo “beat you up” zam! ?..
Lmao
sorry just had to point that out…
….as you were…
Smuck_Hey_Dee_Hewitt
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2021
- Messages
- 80
Diazepam and Bromazepam.
I haven´t kept up with RC benzos since the good old Phenazepam black out age, and the guys above me seem much more knowledgeable than I am on this topic so, give them priority .
Having said this I would assume all of them would more or less agree that Diazepam is the one to go to whenever you have "the most forgiving " in mind .
Bromazepam is similar , just a shorter half life, more anti depressive +anti anxiolytic effects , thus somewhat more difficult to quit ... just "downgrade" to a "Diazepam -only -diet " and you´ll be fine .
May I ask why is it you are considering a prescribed benzo when you dabble with Etiz. and even manage to quit it altogether ?
SpiralusSancti
Bluelighter
That sounds like a huge positive for people with light to mild “regular benzo” dependence, much as pregabaline can work great even with quite a bit tolerance/addiction to benzos even it works via completely different mechanism.
Bleaney
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2021
- Messages
- 1,682
I currently have no source of Etiz without going on the dark net. All clearnet sources that I know of are currently out of stock.
Fertile
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2022
- Messages
- 1,627
That is my thinking. Alcohol also works - but that's the very WORSE choice.
Concerning the Law
For all of you researchers, you will note that clonazam ISN'T chemically a benzodiazepine. It has no diazepine ring. Instead it has a diazepinedione ring.
That would hamper the recent changes in DEA regulation because:
-It's significantly chemically different evidenced by it's synthesis being totally unrelated to any benzodiazepine synthesis (I know of)
-It's selective affinity is for the α1β2γ2 & α1β2γ3 subunits (which are found in different areas of the brain) is totally different to benzodiazepines.
-It's subjective action is significantly different to benzodiazepines.
-It's abuse potential is significantly lower than that of benzodiazepines.
Above 20mg [BID] it's effect plateau. For anyone interested, I have proper references to all this including a trial in which supratherapeutic doses were trialed (proper double-blind study) and at higher doses their was no increase in the subjective effects nor in it's therapeutic effects. In fact, it's LD50 in animal models is 6000 mg/kg while it's ED50 is 3.6-7.4 mg/kg. That gives it a therapeutic index of 810. For the purposes of comparison, diazepam has an LD50 of 720-1240 (depending on species) and an ED50 of 3.7mg/kg species giving it a (cautious) therapeutic index of 194.
So in rough terms, it's about four times safer than diazepam (generally considered to be the safest benzodiazepine). People have survived multiple GRAMS of diazepam (intentional overdose)
Concerning your Health & Safety
As I've mentioned (and referenced) elsewhere, the nitrobenzodiazepines (nitrazepam, flunitrazepam, nitrazolam clonazepam, flunitrazolam) are much more hazardous. I did find that their is a hapatoxic metabolite that is dangerous both acutely and chronically and another that is cytotoxic. Obviously their isn't enough data on newer RC benzodiazepines.
I strongly suspect that if one looks at the version history of the Wikipedia articles detailing these compounds, their would be vendors revising the pages. So don't place too much trust in an information source which is open to manipulation by unregistered users.
I first looked into studies of fatal intentional overdoses (a large Swedish study) and noted that in 72% of cases, either nitrazepam or flunitrazepam were the only drugs detected in the victims body. It was a shock because it was totally unexpected. But the KEY detail (to me) was that flunitrazepam was just as hazardous. That is why I was concerned that nitrazolam and flunitrazolam were both introduced into the RC market. I noticed that whoever is behind designing RC benzos was aware because nitrobenzodiazepines were not common so I presume THEY had also seen the Swedish study (or other papers that highlighted the potential toxicity) and avoided them.
So now the very last RC benzos are nitrazolam and flunitrazolam. Nobody has enough data to provide even rough estimates of the LD50 of those two compounds but a quick Google will show you that those two compounds have been implicated in quite a few deaths. Maybe it was an intentional overdose? Maybe it was an accident caused by the sedating effect of the drug? Maybe it was combining RCs?. But the point is that they appear to be significantly over-represented in cases of deaths implicating benzodiazepines.
But one thing is certain - of the triazolobenzodiazepine class, placing a -NO2 (nitro) moiety at the 8 position will result in the MOST potent drugs in the class. I estimated that at a 1Kg scale, both nitrazolam and flunitrazolam could be made for under $14000/Kg. That figure includes materials and resources. Put bluntly, flunitrazolam is by far the most profitable RC in the world right now. I've never bought any of them but I did see a site offering it as an 0.3mg/mL solution. So simple maths shows that just 1Kg is theoretically worth millions of pounds. That is quite a motive.
But I have tried to make you aware of POSSIBLE risks. I don't know if flunitrazolam went through animal testing or what it's LD50, ED50 and TI are. I would hope it has and further I hope that all such data should be provided to you - the end user.
Paenitemus
Sorry it you find the above pedantic, boring, scare-mongering or some subtle trick on my part to promote RC benzodiazepines. All I can say is that I tried to be accurate and to give you the data that will keep you safe. I'm going to forward this to Michael Linnell and he may well edit it or ask me for further data. But if ANYONE wants the data I have, let me know and I will do my best to respond in a timely fashion.
Last edited:
Bleaney
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2021
- Messages
- 1,682
I discovered today that the benzo equivalence table is definitely off when it comes to clonazepam. 1mg of clonazepam definitely does not feel the same as 2mg of etizolam. 2mg of clonazepam was somewhere near. It was one hell of a stressful and anxiety provoking day though, which definitely did not help. But the strength of clonazepam is being significantly over-estimated unless these Galekia Rivotril pills really are underdosed.
The dosing wouldn't make even sense if the tables were right. Why have some benzos listed as being quadruple strength, especially when they definitely are not.
The dosing wouldn't make even sense if the tables were right. Why have some benzos listed as being quadruple strength, especially when they definitely are not.
Fertile
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2022
- Messages
- 1,627
I SUSPECT that because most of the benzodiazepines on the grey market have come via dubious sources. Suddenly the benzodiazepine market is more profitable than fentanyl. But if you have 1Kg of clonazepam (for example) then obviously you would like to make 1 million pills, not JUST 500,000. So you cut down on the active(s).
It's Grisham's law. If it costs roughly the same to make something as potent as diazepam or something as potent as flunitrazolam, how many people would choose to make diazepam? There are even more potent examples but I've not seen ANY testing of those classes so who knows how safe they are?
Next we are likely to see fake clonazepam that contain nitrazolam or flunitrazolam. It's going to become very dangerous. I see the logic behind the US move but they didn't think ahead. I can see analogues of things like etifoxine being sold on the clearweb because it's not covered. But their are some really toxic etifoxine analogues so only someone willing to do the hard work or someone who doesn't care about the end-user will go there.
SpiralusSancti
Bluelighter
Ime clonazepam is a lot stronger than etizolam per mg when you have no tolerance but opposite becomes true when you get tolerance to etizolam, how or why I have no idea.
Smuck_Hey_Dee_Hewitt
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2021
- Messages
- 80
A lot of this information is new to me since I quit it all (apart from Diazepam which I use now and then when I relapse on certain other substances ) , yet , last I checked , the Clonazepam I would get was marketed by Roche - 2mgs of that would sort me right out ...perhaps even a bit too much .Entering "recreational " area at such doses depending on tolerance, obviously.
Plus taking into account that Bleaney is not an addict and intermittently doses Etiz. I would say that he would be pretty satisfied with 2mgs of Roche Clonaz. Far too satisfied actually .
LivingOnValium
Bluelighter
No wonder lol. 2mg clonazepam is compareble to 40mg diazepam. A hefty dose for someone without a tolerance.
Clonazepam is equipotent to alprazolam but it lasts about 3 times longer. It's a great benzo. One of the best.