What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[SpiralusSancti]

My point is: “crank” is inferior to shards of pure d-methamphetamine. I was not sad to see it go. With MDA and MDMA though, the racemate is what’s most commonly encountered, by far, but I’m super interested in R-MDA.HCl which is purportedly stronger and more euphoric. Meanwhile, I wonder if the same holds true for MDMA.hcl?

No, racemic MDMA is superior to either isomer alone. Still would be fun to experience them separated and in rations other than 50/50. I’m quite sure many people would find some other ratio even better than regular 50/50.

 

[G_Chem]

Agreed wholeheartedly on the prohibition statement. We need to rethink public policy on recreational drugs with tolerance and respect. Public opinion needs to change and society has to stop viewing responsible drug-use by adults as criminal.

But you lost me on the sentiment toward crank, which is ironically a good example of prohibition leading to impure drugs on the market. "Crank" from ~1960 – 1995 was typically racemic methamphetamine synthesized from P-2-P via reductive amination with methylamine. According to legend, west coast bike gangs in the U.S. would run the reaction in a 55-gallon steel drum, mixing P-2-P + methylamine in the presence of an Al/Hg amalgam, which is exothermic to the point that the steel drum became dangerously pressurized and too hot to touch. So, for cooling, the bikers would drop the sealed barrel into a river before it got too hot. They would tie a large chain around it and connect that to a nearby tree to keep it situated as it churned along, processing the reaction and sending up steam from the river water around it. Picture that.

Post-reaction clean-up skills could vary quite a bit from "cook" to "cook". What's more, the product would be racemic (50/50 d- to l-isomer), and isomeric resolution was not nearly as common in the underground scene. "Ice", "glass", "Tina", "shards", or aka pure d-methamphetamine didn't hit the streets in the U.S. until the mid-90s when a legendary underground chemist figured out a brilliant way of applying the Birch reduction to ephedrine to produce very pure d-methamphetamine in high yields and in relatively short reaction times. The mass proliferation of Internet access facilitated the rapid spread of this new method – among others – and before you knew it, every hick town across the U.S. had at a least a handful of hillbillies whipping up pyrex dishes of aesthetically pleasing, clear-white crystals. It also fueled the first major U.S. meth epidemic that would persist until after 9/11. That's when police budgets swelled as George W Bush & Co. starting milking the Clinton administration's Federal budget surplus. Also tighter regulation of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine put a chokehold on domestic production of methamphetamine, but this only removed the supply, not the demand.

The demand was filled by Mexican crime syndicates / "cartels" with existing routes for smuggling large quantities of contraband into the U.S. They setup giant "super lab" operations capable of producing vast quantities of highly pure d-methamphetamine. Initially this was done by reducing ephedrine extracted from imported Chinese Ma Huang, the ephedra plant, but over time the precursor and synthesis have had to change and adapt to shifting LE tactics and various new disruptive policies.

My point is: “crank” is inferior to shards of pure d-methamphetamine. I was not sad to see it go. With MDA and MDMA though, the racemate is what’s most commonly encountered, by far, but I’m super interested in R-MDA.HCl which is purportedly stronger and more euphoric. Meanwhile, I wonder if the same holds true for MDMA.hcl?

EDIT: btw, cool username

Great post! Except I’m not so sure R-MDA is more euphoric. Based on the little we have to go off of from PIHKAL, S-MDA sounds like a very euphoric shortened version of MDMA. The R-MDA gives the long lasting stimulation/trippiness. But the bulk of the euphoria for MDA is 3-5hrs which correlates with the S-isomer.

That said, I did do some studying awhile back of MDA batch variation and how it could correlate with isomer variations. I’ve found reports from 80’s and 90’s where the MDA lasted 12-24hrs. Even the early PIHKAL reported long duration only to retract that statement later. Either R-MDA heavy product was more prevalent back then or my theory of Leuckart producing longer acting stronger empathogenic Amphetamines is correct.

So I’m not discounting what you’re saying, more saying we simply don’t know. It’s actually my dream to one day separate the isomers of MDA. MDMA doesn’t interest me but I think the two isomers of MDA would serve better as separate drugs then in combination.

-GC

 

[Yolodan214]

It's a dangerous combo mate (physically and mentally - especially if expending huge amounts of energy dancing and fucking) and the cocaine dominates and blocks the empathic effect of the mdma

Much better consumed separately

Thank you for that. You are right. I think we may just do a few bumps after coming off of the mdma.

 

[ageingpartyfiend]

Thank you for that. You are right. I think we may just do a few bumps after coming off of the mdma.

If you're gonna combine them, then that's the way to do it for sure - enjoy!

 

[unodelacosa]

No, racemic MDMA is superior to either isomer alone. Still would be fun to experience them separated and in rations other than 50/50. I’m quite sure many people would find some other ratio even better than regular 50/50.

How are you so sure of this? IIRC Shulgin mentions this in PIHKAL, how the two isomers purportedly potentiate one another in a synergistic manner, and maybe he's right, but that was also at least 30 years ago…

Great post!

Thanks

Except I’m not so sure R-MDA is more euphoric.

Idk, according to this guy on Hamilton Morris's podcast, R-MDA is biggity bangin', son. Check it out:

Thank you for that. You are right. I think we may just do a few bumps after coming off of the mdma.

Coke plays nicely against a benzo toward the end of a long night partying on MDMA and/or whatever. Just be sure you're ready to stop rolling and tripping. Also be aware that cocaine is cardiotoxic, so enjoy the buzz you have sometimes rather than chasing it… Last thing ☞ remember: cocaine is short-lived whilst most downers are not. Go easy when combining.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

How are you so sure of this? IIRC Shulgin mentions this in PIHKAL, how the two isomers purportedly potentiate one another in a synergistic manner, and maybe he's right, but that was also at least 30 years ago…

You are right. I’m not 100% sure but I’m pretty sure if there was superior isomer it would be used and not racemic at least by folks from MAPS etc. Kinda seems unlikely that with that old drug, used that widely no one got to an idea to explore individual isomers, it’s not like obtaining pure isomer in a number of ways is out of scope for a good chemist with a proper lab, it definitely isn’t… Could be wrong tho.

 

[unodelacosa]

You are right. I’m not 100% sure but I’m pretty sure if there was superior isomer it would be used and not racemic at least by folks from MAPS etc. Kinda seems unlikely that with that old drug, used that widely no one got to an idea to explore individual isomers, it’s not like obtaining pure isomer in a number of ways is out of scope for a good chemist with a proper lab, it definitely isn’t… Could be wrong tho.

It remains to be seen, though I think we'll see a formula of "salts of MDMA" perhaps, wherein a Big Pharma company might patent a formula of various isomer ratios made from a couple acid salts, similar to the composition of Adderall… After all, pharmaceutical companies have been marketing and selling amphetamine for decades now. The secret to getting new patents granted has been in demonstrating that various isomer salts, when isolated and combined in a particular ratio, have distinct and preferred effects. Wouldn't surprise me to see a similar approach taken with MDMA.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I also expect at least mixs of salts. Apparently MDMA citrate is a lot different than MDMA HCl and works kinda like slow release/absorbing version. I have no reason to doubt person who told me that was making up it’s great for end of experience, making comedown a lot more gentle.

Also I forgot to write that before, but at least where I’m from many folks partaking in beginnings of rave/techno scene in my country realize there’s no MDMA and mehDMA (well there is shitty dirty MDMA but not cuz of some magic mechanisms) and main factors they remember it better than now is for two simple reasons:

a) Set & setting was hugely different for them back than and it was basically time of music made for MDMA and drugs made for techno in a way. There’s even research how music over certain bpm makes MDMA experience stronger!!!
b) That they love XTC more than pure MDMA more because XTC they dropped wasn’t PURE MDMA but XTC was regularly MDMA + amph, MDMA + MDA, MDA alone, MDMA + caffeine all being standard along with pills with heroin (in reality MDME or something like that), piperazines during droughts, pure amphetamine pills and what not. And most of them remember certain batch as best MDMA while in many cases it was XTC dosed with MDxx + something and that hits their sweet spot and was a great combo they loved more than pure MDMA. That all mixing also probably prolonged magic for them. And many of those people are surprised realizing pure MDMA is hardly an upper in big dose.

Nowadays producer up and up doses in XTC to keep up with global rising tolerance within people into partying hard and partying regularly. And even most all XTC now is just MDMA, occasional batches of some other stuff gather temporary big bases of fans, 4-FA is one example for that.

 

[G_Chem]

How are you so sure of this? IIRC Shulgin mentions this in PIHKAL, how the two isomers purportedly potentiate one another in a synergistic manner, and maybe he's right, but that was also at least 30 years ago…


Thanks


Idk, according to this guy on Hamilton Morris's podcast, R-MDA is biggity bangin', son. Check it out:



Coke plays nicely against a benzo toward the end of a long night partying on MDMA and/or whatever. Just be sure you're ready to stop rolling and tripping. Also be aware that cocaine is cardiotoxic, so enjoy the buzz you have sometimes rather than chasing it… Last thing ☞ remember: cocaine is short-lived whilst most downers are not. Go easy when combining.

For someone who doesn’t have an hour and a half, could you point me to the spot where guy discussed R-MDA pleeeeaase (btw this type of information is like crack to me)

I was always of the mindset it had potential to be better. There’s one Erowid report in particular, this one..

MDA - Erowid Exp - 'I Miss It Like My Best Friend'

An Experience with MDA. 'I Miss It Like My Best Friend' by Plex

erowid.org

That made me think maybe the MDA of old was R heavy. I myself have felt there may be isomer variation with MDA or that possibly the slight natural variation is enough to really alter effects. (6% give or take.) MDA tends to vary a lot more than MDMA I’ve found. Certain batches don’t feel like they have any R-MDA at all, others more racemic feeling. I’ve never had a batch that felt like pure R, in other words didn’t have the two distinct periods of the experience that tell you both isomers are present.

-GC

 

[unodelacosa]

could you point me to the spot where guy discussed R-MDA

If you've got 30 minutes, start in at ~54:40.

Definitely check out 1:11:19 forward for a while to hear more about the R-MDA. Also, 1:13:12.

Really you should listen to the whole thing. Just throw it on in the background while you [activity requiring 60% of your attention].

 

[unodelacosa]

And even most all XTC now is just MDMA

Ah yeah, that old bag…

I agree with almost everything you said there, but you act fairly underwhelmed by pure MDMA.HCl by itself, which when combined with the right set, setting, and company, can be a mind-blowing, life-changing ++++ experience (though, as always, this state cannot be summoned at will; it takes … alignments let‘s just say).

It’s also culturally / sociologically interesting to consider the lexicon we’re using, the jargon, as it were. Fun fact, the name “Molly” comes from “molecule” which itself is a shortened way of saying “Family Fuel Molecule” (or Molly for short). And that’s because the “Family” refers to the Grateful Dead family which included chemists in the Haight-Ashbury scene of San Francisco in the late 20th century. The “molecule” refers to the extra methyl molecule difference between MDA and the then-new “MDMA”. So they started calling MDMA “Molly” bc that extra molecule makes a lot of difference…

 

[SpiralusSancti]

MDMA did change my life for better. Eating first XTC pressed with just 105mg of perfectly pure MDMA started changing my life within 45 minutes after eating it, at no more than 1h I met one of my best friends in park before party and I told him – “X, this is PERFECT! Fucking perfect!!!”. And he replied – “Yeah, I SEE!!!”.

I was 16 or 17 and that night changed my life, my ex’s life and X’s life too. For the first time in my life I was feeling 0 social anxiety with bunch of people along with all the positive effects everyone get from proper MDMA. Well not everyone, if you already had dozens or hundreds of OMG experiences from relatives or strong emphatogens alltogether MDMA wont have surprise and novelty and shine nearly as much. You see if I had bk-MDMA first I would get almost as much from it but if after tens of experiences I got MDMA instead I would probably think – this is best bk-MDMA EVER [(and without big tolerance break(maybe not even that)]. I witnessed it other way around. Living in a world of lab tested drugs is different than usual users experience. Few people who had great XTC during 90s and early 00s tried bk-MDMA and all reacted that way. I remember dude telling me how it’s best MDMA they ever tried cuz novelty of bk- was enough for that. Same thing happens with benzofurans, euphoric amphetamines and low dose of 2c-b. I remember 2c-b first appearing in my country, well first time in “my age”. I knew what it was, I both some moderately dosed pills and it was magical cuz as much MDMA is great and life changing, LSD is a whole different story and more suited for my taste… But you know what was word among among some people in trance community who tried both proper MDMA and proper LSD, it was – “Those are XTC pills with liquid dropped on them”. And those were not stupid, retarded, fried junkies but at worst folks not extremely bright (still above average citizen) and not that deep into drugs and in their world that 2c-b XTC felt like they imagined candyflipping would feel and that says a lot.

Nowadays best thing about MDMA for me is seeing how it melts trauma in someone else.

 

[unodelacosa]

And those were not stupid, retarded,

… easy …

fried junkies

… easy, killer. Wow. You said a lot just then in very few words. Somehow it was like a judgmental Haiku:

Those were not stupid​

retarded fried junkies, just​

dimwits, none too bright​

but at worst folks not extremely bright (still above average citizen) and not that deep into drugs and in their world that 2c-b XTC felt like they imagined candyflipping would feel and that says a lot.

Does it though? Just about every phenethylamine feels like candy-flipping on some level, to me.

Similarly most RC stims can probably be described as somewhere between tweeking and rolling with things like 4-FA and 4-MMC being closer to a "roll" whilst compounds like 2-FMA and 3-MMC sit closer to the speed side of the spectrum, as it were.

Nowadays best thing about MDMA for me is seeing how it melts trauma in someone else.

It is satisfying to witness therapy uncoil itself within a person who needs it, isn't it? It's a very special thing, and I've learned to cherish it more than the drugs initial effects in me…

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I prefer LSD alone rather than in combo with MDMA but I prefer 2c-b alone or with MDMA more than MDMA and LSD combo. All of those are unique experiences and easily distinguishable for us in any dose but not for inexperienced people new to those stuff.
Think opposite of <insert judgmental Haiku> folks who feel that big magical difference between 1p-LSD and LSD cuz you know, they have super sharpened their senses by doing loads of drugs every day for decades and boosting about it as makes them more and not less legit lol..

And you could say life caused me to have stupid unrealistic high expectation about what kind of people should steer away from drugs and what should people know before using them. Used to think like Leary – “Drugs to the people!!!” … o boy, was I wrong.! No kind of drug can fix stupid, but some sure do increase stupidity and mental issues for some.

<playful sarcasm>
Civilizations far more developed then ours usually need to pass age where they screen people before giving them permission to have children and do drugs to get closer to utopia even it’s unpopular idea at first. No drug zombies on street and no molested children but it seems USA decided for a different approach of weeding out “undesirable” people with fent? 100 000 deaths per annum because Evil China working with Scary Cartel certainly sounds better than castrating 1milion people per decad because of mental issues, right?
</sad sarcasm>

 

[unodelacosa]

I prefer LSD alone rather than in combo with MDMA but I prefer 2c-b alone or with MDMA more than MDMA and LSD combo.

Same.

All of those are unique experiences and easily distinguishable for us in any dose but not for inexperienced people new to those stuff.
Think opposite of <insert judgmental Haiku> folks who feel that big magical difference between 1p-LSD and LSD cuz you know, they have super sharpened their senses by doing loads of drugs every day for decades and boosting about it as makes them more and not less legit lol..

Totes, lol. This may be, in part at least, the heart of the problem for those adamant in their beliefs regarding so-called “mehDMA” (I always liked the term “MDM-meh” better, but … you know… meh).

And you could say life caused me to have stupid unrealistic high expectation about what kind of people should steer away from drugs and what should people know before using them. Used to think like Leary – “Drugs to the people!!!” … o boy, was I wrong.! No kind of drug can fix stupid, but some sure do increase stupidity and mental issues for some.

Perhaps but the freedom for each of us to explore our own bodies and minds – our innerspace, if you will – is an unalienable right that we need to protect and defend. It is our own sacred right to body autonomy, each of us, as sentient human-beings. Criminalizing this and declaring an untenable “war” against the vague concept of “drugs” all while permitting Big Pharma to do their dog & pony show advertisements does not help things.

<playful sarcasm>

No need for pretense.

Civilizations far more developed then ours usually need to pass age where they screen people before giving them permission to have children

Yeah you do that and everyone labels you Adolf Hitler… or perhaps Xi Jinping for reals…

How do you enforce such a permission-based thing, and how does it account for the preservation of individual freedoms?

and do drugs to get closer to utopia even it’s unpopular idea at first.

There you go! Force that utopia on them for their own good, goddammit.

No drug zombies on street

WTF is a drug zombie?

and no molested children

Whoa, WTF does child molestation have to do with this? What kind of terrible logic is that shit?

but it seems USA decided for a different approach of weeding out “undesirable” people with fent?

Wow that’s a really dark conspiracy, but it implies an “intelligent hand” that can make cohesive moves without a single whistle-blower… super not likely.

100 000 deaths per annum because Evil China working with Scary Cartel certainly sounds better than castrating 1milion people per decad because of mental issues, right?

Winni Jinping the fuckin' Pooh.

 

[Jabberwocky]

… easy …

… easy, killer. Wow. You said a lot just then in very few words. Somehow it was like a judgmental Haiku:

Those were not stupid​

retarded fried junkies, just​

dimwits, none too bright​

Does it though? Just about every phenethylamine feels like candy-flipping on some level, to me.

Similarly most RC stims can probably be described as somewhere between tweeking and rolling with things like 4-FA and 4-MMC being closer to a "roll" whilst compounds like 2-FMA and 3-MMC sit closer to the speed side of the spectrum, as it were.


It is satisfying to witness therapy uncoil itself within a person who needs it, isn't it? It's a very special thing, and I've learned to cherish it more than the drugs initial effects in me…

They were just plur-ing
e-tarded club kiddies, just
Gurning, not learning

 

[simstim]

I only get the pills, never had crystal, but the ones I get are usually on point.

This latest batch are killer. I'm on it now.

That said I've seen people take pills that I know are good and not roll. Usually they are on an antidepressant or some other psych meds but not always.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

There you go! Force that utopia on them for their own good, goddammit.

Ever read Plato’s Republica?

Utopia requiring slaves sounds bad right? Replace slave with robots and you got a hell a lota nicer place.

I wouldn’t force anything but people will sooner or later get some things in order. Maybe not during my lifetime but maybe I’ll see it.

And don’t take things I wrote literally.

And what is USA for you? No need to for any “shadow hand”, I’m not some Q-anon conspiracy guy or whatever and you are answering to me in a way like I am. People of USA as whole, as society consciously and subconsciously decided to ingest their own society with a variety of things including but not limited to shitty drugs and self-righteous delusions while accusing other parts of world for having terrible logic for not wanting same shit as USA.

No one is pushing flesh eating drugs into US junkies, and explanation for that is not simple and neither is solution as simple as many think -m’k drgz are gud if legal, give heroin – fix all drug zombies.

CHILD MOLESTING IS AT SADLY HIGH LEVELS ALL AROUND WORLD CUZ IDIOTS AND SICK PEOPLE HAVE CHILDREN!

Check out what is happening in Zambia.

https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...a-face-new-charges-child-trafficking-96977408

And many, many before those 8 got children from same place in Congo via some shady connections and now they are panicking. If I could I would be gladly protect that children by any and all means.

In short you, you don't understand me, maybe it's a language barrier IDK.

 

[Magicmdma1]

Hello. I have been here since the beginning but under a different nickname, I had to create a new account because I lost the data for the old one.

From the very beginning I have been a supporter of the fact that mdma has lost its magic.

And this is not due to abuse....

I used mdma in Poland from 1998-2004 and there were worse pills but most were real magic....

from 2004 I had a break until 2020, I decided to remind both of the old times to feel that happiness....

Unfortunately the current mdma is completely different from the old one, there is no magic of happiness or love.

I always had a suspicion that this perfect mdma produces genius but I had no evidence....

Today I read this article and finally understood everything!!!!!!!

You have to use a translator to translate....

Polak, były nauczyciel chemii, produkował najczystszą amfetaminę w Wielkiej Brytanii. "Prawdziwy Walter White"

Były nauczyciel chemii uruchamia laboratorium amfetaminy i produkuje narkotyk o niespotykanej na rynku czystości – ta historia, jakby żywcem wyjęta ze scenariusza serialu „Breaking Bad”, zdarzyła się naprawdę w Wielkiej Brytanii. Jej bohaterem był Polak, 61-letni Ryszard Jakubczyk, który w...

natemat.pl

 

[Magicmdma1]

I would only add that in addition to amphetamine, he also produced mdma pills, one of which was so powerful that in 1998 it killed one person in Poland and it was called UFO. A very high-profile case