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The Last Covid-19 Megathread v. Hopefully...

Yeah that guy is pretty cringe tbh after looking at his tweets. Full blown conspiracy bro.

Tells internet trolls "I used to be a cop ;), my website logs your IPs" ... ok buddy

Seems like nobody questions anything anymore, nobody sips the koolaid they chug the whole carafe.
 
I chose to believe him because in his bio it says "Campaign Manager for IL AG Candidate @thomasdevore76"

so I assume the guy can't afford to ruin his creditability by lying about heart damage
 
bird.brain said:
There are a lot of "coulds" and "we don't know" in your post (which, as Xork said, is fascinating and well written).
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This isn't really much different from the conventional understanding though, given that is all rooted on 'germ theory' which is after all just theory. Same goes for particle physics or any other branch of our modern science. Just because all the text books, media, and general consensus of the cultural paradigm says it's true doesn't actually make it so. I guess it comes down to trust for a lot of people, and personally I have somewhere between little and fuck all left when it comes to big institutions, there's just too much indicating they're either corrupt or have lost their grounding in the same way any organised religion loses connection with the original mystics proclamations.
bird.brain said:
You said at one point the magnetic/electric impact of the Sun/Earth could have something to with influenza outbreaks. Presumably, you are just entertaining a possibility, here. The word "could" implies it also "might not" have anything to do with it. Anything is possible. Is it possible, then, that viruses do exist?
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Sure. What makes me consider the no viruses idea as a genuine possibility is the fact that it should be rooted in solid science but it isn't, and added to that we have pharmaceutical interests with trillions of dollars and a market to maintain. If the science was clear and demonstrable I would accept, as I once did, that viruses are most likely to be true (though it could still actually be wrong). When there's people stinking up a fuss about the science itself then that interests me - if it were solid as a rock people wouldn't be doing this.

This is why no one makes a fuss about the solid, simple science of say mechanical physics. The mathematics and experiments are congruent. They don't extrapolate out any massive implications or conclusions about life, it's just "If you put X force here, Y movement happens here". It's solid. But when you get to the level of making grand philosophical implications for example, such as Newton's claims about absolutes, then you get a 'fuss' and people like Ernst Mach pop up and say "wait a second.. this isn't solid science". I automatically gravitate to these people because generally their intuitions are correct. Maybe their conclusions are not right either - one alternative model to viruses I've seen is that illness is caused by purely psychological means - but the original intuition generally is correct (and interesting discussion in itself).

The viral model is rooted on scientific methodology that has circular logic, and the concept is sustained and biased by human fears of health/death. We're too involved in it.
bird.brain said:
HIV is another example of something that (to me) lends itself towards the virus explanation. Clearly HIV is transferred from one person to another. Clearly it is the result of unprotected sex, right?
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RFK discusses HIV quite well in this recent Fauci book. HIV was essentially Covid 1.0. Not in the sense of illness, but in terms of the origin story; how players in the medical industry came to push a narrative quickly, one not actually supported by science, then the media aligned to create mass hysteria, and eventually a medical product (AZT) was provided from which massive profits were made (and actually killed people). There's so many parallels, right down to the fact that Fauci was involved too.

HIV has never been observed in the blood of a single positive patient.
People were making noise back in the 90's about HIV. In particular I find this video very helpful in giving a broad overview of the concept of the potential misconception:

bird.brain said:
Also - historically - there have been a lot of examples of viruses being introduced to native populations, etc. What you are suggesting is not just a conspiracy but a bunch of conspiracies that are conspiring together to create a super conspiracy.
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Have there? How do you know it was a virus, beyond correlation causation?

Not necessarily conspiracies or a super conspiracy. It could very easily be a confluence of misconception and delusion, and perhaps instances of individual corruption/conspiracy in the overall historical story. But I can also see the possibility of a very small group of people understanding the full picture, people who were involved in the science right from the start (i.e the Jesuits) that understood a deliberate misconception was made and then allowed it to propagate down through time without being resolved - they may not understand the actual truth of illness or any alternatives either, only that the main hypothesis is a deliberate misconception on their part, which would be enough to allow them to control the overall narrative of belief by keeping people confined within their concept structure. If you control the root or seed, then you can more easily manipulate the overall shape and structure of the emerging tree (of knowledge).

I can't prove one or the other scenarios obviously, but they are possibilities. Maybe it's a little of both.
 
-=SS=- said:
This isn't really much different from the conventional understanding though, given that is all rooted on 'germ theory' which is after all just theory. Same goes for particle physics or any other branch of our modern science. Just because all the text books, media, and general consensus of the cultural paradigm says it's true doesn't actually make it so. I guess it comes down to trust for a lot of people, and personally I have somewhere between little and fuck all left when it comes to big institutions, there's just too much indicating they're either corrupt or have lost their grounding in the same way any organised religion loses connection with the original mystics proclamations.
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I think you're assuming that I believe the mainstream version 100%. I don't. Far from it. I'm open to ideas. Like I said, I found some of the stuff you said interesting. In particular, the idea that vaccines were introduced historically when case numbers were already waning. I'm going to have to look into it further before I take your word for it and I don't have the time to do so at the moment.

Sure. What makes me consider the no viruses idea as a genuine possibility
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It seems I've also misunderstood you. I thought you were convinced that viruses don't exist.

It is, of course, a possibility. I don't like to settle on anything, ever. All we have is possibilities.

If the science was clear and demonstrable I would accept, as I once did, that viruses are most likely to be true (though it could still actually be wrong). When there's people stinking up a fuss about the science itself then that interests me - if it were solid as a rock people wouldn't be doing this.
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So, you remain sceptical about all theoretical science? Me too. I don't 100% believe in the big bang. How many times has science been wrong in the past? Subscribing to science like a religion is stupid. People ITT keep saying that "pro-vaxxers" (I'm not a pro-vaxxer) just gobble up whatever mainstream science dictates... but I don't think people are really doing that.

I'm considering evidence from both sides and I'm leaning towards viruses existing and also leaning towards a (largely) non-conspiratorial interpretation of events. This isn't because I'm sucking the dick of Modern Science. Anti-vaxxers have just failed to convince me. There aren't a lot of compelling arguments being put forward in this thread and when I ask questions they are rarely answered. I'm left to assume this is due to a lack of answers. I'm not applying this to you. Like I said, I respect your ability to debate... especially considering how difficult a task you have created for yourself with such an unusual and fringe attitude. You have done remarkably well.

RFK discusses HIV quite well in this recent Fauci book. HIV was essentially Covid 1.0. Not in the sense of illness, but in terms of the origin story; how players in the medical industry came to push a narrative quickly, one not actually supported by science, then the media aligned to create mass hysteria, and eventually a medical product (AZT) was provided from which massive profits were made (and actually killed people). There's so many parallels, right down to the fact that Fauci was involved too.

HIV has never been observed in the blood of a single positive patient.
People were making noise back in the 90's about HIV. In particular I find this video very helpful in giving a broad overview of the concept of the potential misconception:
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I don't want to watch the video. I'd rather talk to you about it. Can you paraphrase what is in the video you find helpful?

What - in your opinion - is happening when people test positive for HIV?

What is happening when an observable chain of events has occurred and the transmission of the virus can be tracked from person to person?

What is happening when somebody contracts HIV from a blood transfusion?

Perhaps the video answers all these questions, but I don't have the time (read: motivation) to watch it in it's entirety only to find out it doesn't answer these questions.

Can you answer them?

Have there? How do you know it was a virus, beyond correlation causation?
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Okay. That's fair. My bad. I'll rephrase it.

Also - historically - there have been a lot of examples of viruses being introduced to native populations, etc.
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What do you think was happening (historically) when colonists visited new lands and native populations developed symptoms that are typically associated with what we understand to be "viruses".

deliberate misconception was made and then allowed it to propagate down through time without being resolved
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What convinces you it was deliberate?

For what it's worth, the progressive nature of science bothers me too. We should always question everything. Even mathematics is based on an imperfect core, IMO, but I don't believe that was intentional. We have a tendency to set scientific precedents and treat them like gospel which retards progress.

I'm starting to understand you.

I think - a lot of the time - people have false ideas about what other people are thinking. That applies in both directions in the context of vaccine debates. Pro-vaxxers think anti-vaxxers are crazy. Anti-vaxxers think pro-vaxxers are sheep. Neither statement is true. We're all just people trying to work this shit out.

Great post, SS. I'm sorry if I wrote you off earlier as a nutter. I realize now that I was being rude.
 
He's right about polio vax and others that weren't introduced until the virus was already in big decline for a long time. I've definitely read that
 
Smallpox, to me, is perhaps the best example of vaccines seeming to work. We entirely eliminated from the face of the earth a disease which was a terrible scourge of humanity.

I also see stuff like whooping cough outbreaks among groups of people who don't vaccinate their children against it. While I have never heard of anyone vaccinated as a child getting it. My girlfriend's parents were very anti-vaxx, and she had it when she was young.

It seems pretty clear to me that vaccines have been an important part of modern medicine and have done a great job, but not all of them. Definitely not the covid one.
 
Xorkoth said:
Smallpox, to me, is perhaps the best example of vaccines seeming to work. We entirely eliminated from the face of the earth a disease which was a terrible scourge of humanity.
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Did we though. Or maybe like all the other major diseases smallpox was simply at the end of a long downward trend towards zero anyway. A quick glance at the graphs, which always only seem to show to 1920 despite data being available for another century back (perhaps hiding the true scale of the decline), shows a steady downward trend towards zero. Below is a screenshot I took from ourworldindata - I cropped out the years after 1977 where it is at zero.

They began the worldwide campaign to eradicate it in 1967, right before that last spike in recorded cases. Incidentally if that spike wasn't there, say perhaps because they hadn't gone travelling the world looking to find what they expected to see, and the line just continued straight down towards zero, would that affect our perception of what occurred? You can clearly see the downward trajectory, you can draw the line with your eye it's so apparent, to where it terminates at the same time they claim to have eradicated it themselves. A single occurrence wouldn't necessarily be noteworthy, but this same formula has been applied in multiple instances and perhaps the best example is with measles which had between a 95-99% decline in mortality before the vaccine was introduced. The overarching point being that maybe vaccines as saviour is a case of stolen glory, with the real heroes perhaps being the increase in living standards (food, water, sanitation, etc) that resolved the conditions that lead to these disease epidemics/pandemics in the first place.

Screenshot-2023-01-12-101445.jpg

Xorkoth said:
I also see stuff like whooping cough outbreaks among groups of people who don't vaccinate their children against it. While I have never heard of anyone vaccinated as a child getting it. My girlfriend's parents were very anti-vaxx, and she had it when she was young.
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But it is freely acknowledged that vaccinated people can still catch and develop symptoms of the thing they're supposedly protected from. We've just seen it with covid. They made very bold assured claims in regards to transmission, and safety, that have now been proven by reality/time to be simply bold faced lies that they clearly just made up to exaggerate their product effectiveness. They said at the time as if it were fact, as if their data proved their claims, but again we now know their data (like always?) had clear holes in it and they basically fudged it to fit a predetermined conclusion.

In regards to vaccinated people catching and developing symptoms whooping cough is no exception. Or measles.

Given how we have just seen many so called professionals in the medical field close rank, placing their own selfish prestige above the welfare of the public (encouraged from on high with threat of reprisals) by completely dismissing peoples concerns that the vaccine has caused them injury, what is to say that the same exact thing hasn't been going on for a long time with other vaccines? People showing symptoms of a disease they perhaps shouldn't have owing to vaccination status, and the doctor then just outright dismisses the possibility and it never gets recorded when it should, therefore skewing the actual effectiveness data?

There's clearly a lot of potential bias at play. From career prestige, to beliefs, to industry profit. And a lot of potential room for error and misconceptions. I could be wrong of course, but from where I stand it seems way, way more uncertain that the 'vaccines are saviour' narrative is as rock solid as people make it out to be.
 
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Interesting. Anyway, some vaccines are more effective than others. Some are nearly 100%. The covid vaccine is probably the worst performing one of all time.

I realize it's anecdotal, but nearly everyone I know had the whooping cough and measles vaccine, and no one I know has ever had either except for my girlfriend, who wasn't vaccinated and got whooping cough, as did several other kids in her community at the same time.

I don't really have the energy to reply any further right now but thanks for articulating.
 
Wonder what the differences are between croup, RSV and whooping cough. Guess I'll look it up now that I'm curious
 
-=SS=- said:
it is freely acknowledged that vaccinated people can still catch and develop symptoms of the thing they're supposedly protected from
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You can also die from a head wound while wearing a helmet.

The vaccines are shit (they don't work as well as they said they would) but that doesn't mean they don't offer any protection.
 
Xorkoth said:
Smallpox, to me, is perhaps the best example of vaccines seeming to work. We entirely eliminated from the face of the earth a disease which was a terrible scourge of humanity.

I also see stuff like whooping cough outbreaks among groups of people who don't vaccinate their children against it. While I have never heard of anyone vaccinated as a child getting it. My girlfriend's parents were very anti-vaxx, and she had it when she was young.

It seems pretty clear to me that vaccines have been an important part of modern medicine and have done a great job, but not all of them. Definitely not the covid one.
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Man...in old times-they drives us marching to docs.cavinet....all kind of vaxines-probably small pox,etc...all kids.nobody died...getting two more jabs of some vacines not yrouble me much...especially in the midst of outbreak.those people,who died around me...in the village..they just cannot breathe...even with oxygene.....people on 50....teachers,nurses,docs..,...three-four bigger owners of busynesses too.Their money didn't buy'em life
 
Another example of a vaccine that works is tetanus. Ever looked into tetanus? People used to get that shit. It's not a virus, though, but the toxic metabolites of a bacteria that causes it. You have a ~50% chance of dying from it and it causes horrific muscle spasms/locking to the point they can break bones they're so strong, and you can't open your jaw. It lasts until the nerve cells it's affecting die and are replaced by new ones. Sounds like one of the most horribly painful and terrible diseases you could possible get. But to my knowledge no one who is vaccinated against it ever gets it.

And another is rabies.
 
Xorkoth said:
Another example of a vaccine that works is tetanus. Ever looked into tetanus? People used to get that shit. It's not a virus, though, but the toxic metabolites of a bacteria that causes it. You have a ~50% chance of dying from it and it causes horrific muscle spasms/locking to the point they can break bones they're so strong, and you can't open your jaw. It lasts until the nerve cells it's affecting die and are replaced by new ones. Sounds like one of the most horribly painful and terrible diseases you could possible get. But to my knowledge no one who is vaccinated against it ever gets it.

And another is rabies.
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many vaccines work. Rabies does not make you immune it spares you about a days extra worth of time to get your ass to hopstial before you die.

Covid vaccine does not work.

I get all my other vaccine shots and none of them ever had complications with them, none of them gave me perma heart damage. Most vaccines i barely felt them, Covid 19 vaccine made me spew blood made my bones hurt and to this day my heart is damaged.

And yet all the other vaccines protected me and covid 19 vaccine leads to more people catching covid 19 than the unvaxed.
 
Xorkoth said:
And another is rabies.
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That shit is absolutely terrifying. I've seen videos documenting the decline towards death. There is no cure, even today, if you contract it without a vaccine. It's a death sentence and about a week of sheer torture.

With a vaccine? It's almost impossible to contact for your whole life.

TripSitterNZ said:
Rabies does not make you immune it spares you about a days extra worth of time to get your ass to hopstial before you die.
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This is incorrect. If you contract rabies, even today in modern times, there is NO treatment. You die, very painfully.

To this day, the only treatment for rabies is preventative measures... mainly the vaccine.

There is no modern treatment or cure for rabies.
 
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