Why do Americans say shit about ww2 like "you'd be speaking German if it wasn't for us"?

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Not just to people from the UK, but mostly.
Do they teach a weirdly pro-American alternate-history in U.S. schools?

America literally came into the war right at the very last moment as it was ending - after most of the world had been fighting for many years - helped out A LITTLE....and then claimed all of the credit? It's so bizarre.

I'm in no way against the U.S. and many of my friends on here are from there. I've just always found this confusing and weird?

This isn't gonna help my not-having-a-go-just-confused thing (I PROMISE it's true), but while I'm at it (rather than making two threads), on a very similar note: why is Thanksgiving celebrated as when the natives shared their food and shelter with the pilgrims when what actually happened is the pilgrims murdered the natives and stole their food/land/shelter?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Because we were literally taught to, it's in the history books... that we wrote for our kids. Why would we applaud the Russians who became our mortal enemy for decades after? Every country has their unique ww2 retrospective.

Although, from what I've heard growing up, it's that WE, us Americans, would be speaking German, not you.

And I mean, come on, we did help western Europe considerably... but sure, we like to take the spotlight. That's American exceptionalism for you.

Want me to move this to the dive or TL?

 

[Joey]

I wonder how quickly that would have been instated. Instantly and nationwide obviously. God bless America.

It’s kind of like how I speak fluent Mandarin since COVID began. WAR with China virus is so unbearable! Long time!!

I believe this!

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

did the guy who said this to you also give you a noogie?

 

[Fertile]

The truth is - without the US, almost all of Europe would be speaking Russian not German. It was Churchill who wanted to land on Greece and The Balkans to reduce the Russian sphere of influence.

But if the second front has not begun - ALL of mainland Europe would have been Russian satellite states.

Likely NOT the UK as the US would see the rampant spread of Communism and would have sought a regional ally.

After all, Russia could reasonably gone for India, Pakistan, Syria, Iran, Iraq and all of North Africa. After all - they would have gained access to all of Europe's natural resources (and the Middle East would provide petrochemicals.

And don't forget - Communist forces only took over in China in 1947.so China would have become another vassal.

I guess Micronesia and Australasia would have been the only other defendable points.

In that case - I can WELL imagine the US using all of the nuclear weapons they could muster and while Russia developed their own in 1949, they had no delivery system and the US had solid (lithium deuteride) hydrogen bombs by 1954. It turns out that >256Mt causes no more damage - the blast is just reflected off the ground, but it WOULD have resulted in a nuclear attack (not war as that presumes both sides have nuclear weapons).

If one were to flatten the 300 largest settlements (everywhere >50000 people), the US would technically win - but poison the planet so it would be a right old mess.

Ripple was not developed until 1961 (very clean - only 0.3% fission (i.e. no natural uranium tamper, no plutonium spark-plug. Cleaner than the Ysar bomb. Still - a 10Mt Ripple device is unlikely to be appreciated if you ate within about 30 miles. ''

 

[somnilicious]

Not just to people from the UK, but mostly.
Do they teach a weirdly pro-American alternate-history in U.S. schools?

America literally came into the war right at the very last moment as it was ending - after most of the world had been fighting for many years - helped out A LITTLE....and then claimed all of the credit? It's so bizarre.

I'm in no way against the U.S. and many of my friends on here are from there. I've just always found this confusing and weird?

This isn't gonna help my not-having-a-go-just-confused thing (I PROMISE it's true), but while I'm at it (rather than making two threads), on a very similar note: why is Thanksgiving celebrated as when the natives shared their food and shelter with the pilgrims when what actually happened is the pilgrims murdered the natives and stole their food/land/shelter?

To be fair the war had been going on for 2yrs when America entered and the war carried on for another 4yrs after America officially became involved. It wasn't exactly coming in at the last moment when the war was almost over with a little fighting. US involvement was a lot more involved than you are giving them credit for not to mention the industrial complex that supplied allied armies. America fought on fronts across the Pacific, Mediterranean, Africa, Normandy and made sure supplies made it across the Atlantic. America Was significantly involved in strategic and essential air bombing.

I would never say such a stupid thing as "You'd all be speaking German" but I think your view is a little distorted. Even Churchill knew America was essential to the UK's fight against Germany and met to persuade Roosevelt towards America's involvement.

There is really no way of knowing how the war would have turned out had America not become involved. There are just too many variables to come to any fore gone conclusion as to the out come on any front because it completely changes the entire dynamic of the war and thus every strategic decision.

 

[Jerry Atrick]

This is Dive material.

NSADD -> The Dive

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Not just to people from the UK, but mostly.
Do they teach a weirdly pro-American alternate-history in U.S. schools?

America literally came into the war right at the very last moment as it was ending - after most of the world had been fighting for many years - helped out A LITTLE....and then claimed all of the credit? It's so bizarre.

I'm in no way against the U.S. and many of my friends on here are from there. I've just always found this confusing and weird?

This isn't gonna help my not-having-a-go-just-confused thing (I PROMISE it's true), but while I'm at it (rather than making two threads), on a very similar note: why is Thanksgiving celebrated as when the natives shared their food and shelter with the pilgrims when what actually happened is the pilgrims murdered the natives and stole their food/land/shelter?

C'mon now. If you want accuracy, be accurate yourself.

America may or may not have been needed to help turn the tide of the war. We damn well certainly made things easier.
As Snafu has stated, the main thing not taught in our history is that the Russians were the main thing that won the war.

The Thanksgiving thing was also accurate only to an extent. A large extent, admittedly.
Yes, America has propaganda taught in it's history books. However, history is complicated and dirty, never black and white.
Hmm, you're from the UK. Funny you should point fingers at stealing land.

 

[December Flower]

Not just to people from the UK, but mostly.
Do they teach a weirdly pro-American alternate-history in U.S. schools?

America literally came into the war right at the very last moment as it was ending - after most of the world had been fighting for many years - helped out A LITTLE....and then claimed all of the credit? It's so bizarre.

I'm in no way against the U.S. and many of my friends on here are from there. I've just always found this confusing and weird?

This isn't gonna help my not-having-a-go-just-confused thing (I PROMISE it's true), but while I'm at it (rather than making two threads), on a very similar note: why is Thanksgiving celebrated as when the natives shared their food and shelter with the pilgrims when what actually happened is the pilgrims murdered the natives and stole their food/land/shelter?

Yeah i think history class in the US is just chanting "USA USA USA" over and over and ppl can pick their own story depending on what they need to deny

 

[December Flower]

C'mon now. If you want accuracy, be accurate yourself.

America may or may not have been needed to help turn the tide of the war. We damn well certainly made things easier.
As Snafu has stated, the main thing not taught in our history is that the Russians were the main thing that won the war.

The Thanksgiving thing was also accurate only to an extent. A large extent, admittedly.
Yes, America has propaganda taught in it's history books. However, history is complicated and dirty, never black and white.
Hmm, you're from the UK. Funny you should point fingers at stealing land.

Russia kicked our asses good.
Only victor I will accept. US and the RAF just bombed our cities to the ground, most w over 90% destruction. The cities were only children, women and seniors and they knew that. All the men died in the war against Russia.


Funnily enough, US didnt beat our main host or anything but they think they won. Its a fucking fantasy tale. Just like all US history seems to be.

Did you know there are Americans who blame Europeans for slaughtering the Native Americans, and dont see a problem w still living on said stolen land? Like it wasnt them, it was Europeans, so not Americas fault. That opinion is so majorly fucked up. Still cant process it properly. Fucked up

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Russia kicked our asses good.
Only victor I will accept. US and the RAF just bombed our cities to the ground, most w over 90% destruction. The cities were only children, women and seniors and they knew that. All the men died in the war against Russia.


Funnily enough, US didnt beat our main host or anything but they think they won. Its a fucking fantasy tale. Just like all US history seems to be.

Did you know there are Americans who blame Europeans for slaughtering the Native Americans, and dont see a problem w still living on said stolen land? Like it wasnt them, it was Europeans, so not Americas fault. That opinion is so majorly fucked up. Still cant process it properly. Fucked up

Yes. And the bombing of some civilian targets was to demoralize and even for simple revenge. All true.
But then there is Germany bombing civilians in Poland and London first.

You can see the Russians being paranoid since they have been invaded from the west so many times.
The Russians are also a ruthless and cruel imperial power now.
They can both be true.
That's what people don't get. They can both be true, it's not black and white.

The indians didn't nicely help the Pilgrims out of the kindness of their heart. They wanted us as allies to fight neighboring tribes.
However, the real beginning of that was visits by Europeans in 100 years previous, taking slaves, murdering, spreading smallpox in the process.
The Pilgrims weren't the first Europeans in the area by any means, just the first to colonize (successfully).
If it weren't for Smallpox decimating the tribes ahead of us, it would have been a lot different.

So, some Pokanokets thought it was in their best interests to ally with the powerful invaders. Some did not, there were factions.
The Pilgrims actually helped put down those factions with force for their allies of convenience.
If I'm not mistaken, the anti-Pilgrim factions of the Pokanokets actually staged raids on the Pilgrims eventually, who then used those raids to begin all out war once they were established.
The Native Americans were in general quite hostile to the Pilgrims, but the history of white contact in the years before that is why. You don't learn that in history.
Yeah, we suck. But it's complicated.


US history has indeed been a fantasy and propaganda. It got a little better for a time.
What's most concerning to me is the present movement to ban any history which puts the US in a negative light once again.
Our "USA!, USA!" nationalist movement is careening into fascism. You're preaching to the choir.

 

[December Flower]

Yes. And the bombing of some civilian targets was to demoralize and even for simple revenge. All true.
But then there is Germany bombing civilians in Poland and London first.

You can see the Russians being paranoid since they have been invaded from the west so many times.
The Russians are also a ruthless and cruel imperial power now.
They can both be true.
That's what people don't get. They can both be true, it's not black and white.

US history has indeed been a fantasy and propaganda. It got a little better for a time.
What's most concerning to me is the present movement to ban any history which puts the US in a negative light once again.
Our "USA!, USA!" nationalist movement is careening into fascism. You're preaching to the choir.

I keep telling Americans that as a German i do see the telltale signs of your nationalism going out of control, but they never want to listen.


O yeah but you can't just revenge kill civilians, in that case how are US and UK better or more moral than ww2 Germany? That's a fucked up comparison, but i have a bunch od patients who had to dig family members', their mom's or their neighbours' corpses from the rubble after the war, while they were still children. It's all fucked up, and what was done to Germany by these two nations is just as morally devoid of emotion and regard for human life as were the crimes of nazi Germany

 

[brokedownpalace10]

and what was done to Germany by these two nations is just as morally devoid of emotion and regard for human life as were the crimes of nazi Germany

Not known to many is the eugenics programs in many nations including the US before WW2.
Hitler took that to way new levels and when the concentration camps were discovered most nations quietly closed their eugenics programs.

As you say, maybe we bombed more civilians.

"Just as" morally devoid. In what particular detail? Plenty of blame to go around.
Prolly a mistake to try to quantify. We could maybe all just learn from our own mistakes.
Yes, we have to admit them first.


Shipping powders back and forth
Singing black goes south and white comes north
And the whole world full of petty wars
Singing I got mine and you got yours
******************
And the politician's throwing stones
So the kids, they dance, they shake their bones
'Cause it's all too clear we're on our own
Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down
Ashes, ashes, all fall down

 

[December Flower]

Not known to many is the eugenics programs in many nations including the US before WW2.
Hitler took that to way new levels and when the concentration camps were discovered most nations quietly closed their eugenics programs.

As you say, maybe we bombed more civilians.

"Just as" morally devoid. In what particular detail? Plenty of blame to go around.
Prolly a mistake to try to quantify. We could maybe all just learn from our own mistakes.
Yes, we have to admit them first.


Shipping powders back and forth
Singing black goes south and white comes north
And the whole world full of petty wars
Singing I got mine and you got yours
******************
And the politician's throwing stones
So the kids, they dance, they shake their bones
'Cause it's all too clear we're on our own
Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down
Ashes, ashes, all fall down

Oh yeah countries all over the Europe and the US sent their Jews to Germany to be *cough* "dealt with"

 

[Fertile]

Russia kicked our asses good.
Only victor I will accept. US and the RAF just bombed our cities to the ground, most w over 90% destruction. The cities were only children, women and seniors and they knew that. All the men died in the war against Russia.


Funnily enough, US didnt beat our main host or anything but they think they won. Its a fucking fantasy tale. Just like all US history seems to be.

Did you know there are Americans who blame Europeans for slaughtering the Native Americans, and dont see a problem w still living on said stolen land? Like it wasnt them, it was Europeans, so not Americas fault. That opinion is so majorly fucked up. Still cant process it properly. Fucked up

Errr.... USAAF performed the day raids, the RAF the night raids. And it's not like Germany didn't attempt the flatten the UK cities of women, children and old people. This isn't a defence, but nobody held the moral high ground in THAT war.

 

[December Flower]

Errr.... USAAF performed the day raids, the RAF the night raids. And it's not like Germany didn't attempt the flatten the UK cities of women, children and old people. This isn't a defence, but nobody held the moral high ground in THAT war.

Huh? That was during the war. The bombing of our coties was when our entire army was already defeated by Russia. You wanted some of the spoils, and you got them.

The bombings here were fucking brutal and inhumane.


And again how does your opponent's strategy make yours more moral? Would ot have been OK to put all Germans in gas chambers after the war? No? Then your point is a non sequitur

 

[Fertile]

Huh? That was during the war. The bombing of our coties was when our entire army was already defeated by Russia. You wanted some of the spoils, and you got them.

The bombings here were fucking brutal and inhumane.


And again how does your opponent's strategy make yours more moral? Would ot have been OK to put all Germans in gas chambers after the war? No? Then your point is a non sequitur

IF you bothered to read, I clearly stated that one side using bombing does not excuse the other - their was no moral high ground. I made THAT very clear.

As for placing Germans in gas chambers - the leaders were hanged.

BTW Russian troops did not reach German territory until August 1944. But Germany didn't surrender until May 7th 1945. Any rational person knew that Germany had lost by February 2nd 1943. Although clearly materiel was still being produced well into 1945. I might remind you that the V1 was still being produced and aimed at London (and other cities) until 1945. The V2 had a similar span of operation. So it isn't like Germany stopped indiscriminate destruction of women, children and the elderly in 1941 as you seem to believe.

Neither side can claim a moral victory - but neither can Germans claim that they stopped indiscriminate bombing in 1941. They carried on as long as possible in spite of it having no operational advantage.

Also worth noting that the Nazis also had chemical weapons that they didn't use out of kindness but because they thought the allies ALSO had them.

 

[Las Veghost grower]

America actually did contribute a good amount at the perfect time…one of those things, but yeas the rest of the world was in the thick of it, America just kicked the doors in and spanked everyone’s ass lol

 

[Fertile]

America actually did contribute a good amount at the perfect time…one of those things, but yeas the rest of the world was in the thick of it, America just kicked the doors in and spanked everyone’s ass lol

Not Russia - in fact the US GAVE Russia about half of Europe.

 

[Las Veghost grower]

Not Russia - in fact the US GAVE Russia about half of Europe.

Russia was hurtin too…like I said we contributed a good amount at the perfect time , that’s the truth