There is no right and wrong. There is only perspective.

[ovenbakedskittles]

Everyone has their own idea of what is right and what is wrong. So therefore, any judgement toward someone for being wrong or evil is disingenuous and is a result of your own ego wanting to build yourself up and to put others down.

Shame and fear are the ultimate barriers for enlightenment. Yet that is all our society consists of. Making other people feel shameful for who they are and self condemning themselves as well. We put people in jails and mental hospitals not because we want to keep society safe but because we want to feel like we are morally superior to them. If we really wanted to heal society and to create a better and safer world then we would try to understand their perspective and see them as if they were our brother or sister who is hurt. I am not saying that we should release them all. But we need to learn to see things through other peoples perspective because then you can see their suffering and you can see why they behave the way that they do and once they recognize that you are valuing their perspective they automatically become less violent and agitated. Because they will not feel alone anymore and most trauma is a result of neglect and not being paid attention to as a child.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Tell that to the Judge that just had to sentence the guy that systematically, with his car, plowed down 57 people in the Waukesha Christmas parade.

6 were killed and the other 51 were seriously injured. Think there's no right or wrong maybe you can send the guy a letter while he's serving his 6 life sentences.

Your damn straight we put people in prison. I suppose we could let them come stay with you.

Your argument only flies if you let the school shooters, the mass killers, the serial killers, the pedophiles and the like come stay at your house, in your neighborhood and have dinner at your table. When you figure out if they know right from wrong you can let us know. And if you think Society feels they are morally " above " these people because we don't want them raping and killing our loved ones I feel sorry for you.

I never want to see things from their perspective. Their suffering is no greater than what they inflicted on society. They don't become less violent and less agitated because you said " hey buddy....I feel ya. Yeah, the world sucks ". Only medication and incarceration does that. Most convicts and people that practice deviant behavior don't own up to their crimes. They blame their parents and society because they don't know how to accept what they have done.

You may not think there is any right and any wrong and you can live that way as long as you never get involved with the judicial system or the mental health system but once you are they will determine what is right and what is wrong for you. You lose your say in the matter. They choose for you.

 

[mal3volent]

Because they will not feel alone anymore and most trauma is a result of neglect and not being paid attention to as a child.

So what about all the people who went through "trauma" and terrible childhoods who are living normal lives and not taking it out on others? That takes hard work, discipline, and determination. Why would we reward individuals who go through life behaving selfishly, lazily, and without regard for their peers? In order for our society to survive we must separate those people from everyone else. Once they are separate from us, we separate them again. The ones who can be reformed and those who can't. There are exceptions to that and the system isn't perfect, but its better than the alternative.

 

[RareForm]

A multitude of ethical concepts exists on a spectrum. One can apply reasoning based on subjective viewpoints from their moral makeup shaped by their historical background and the world around them. The title of this thread is thought-provoking; I can understand the intent of how one arrives there, but there is indeed a general understanding of right and wrong adopted by regions the world over.

I don't particularly agree with most of the original post, though I can appreciate what your head is.

 

[BK38]

Everyone has their own idea of what is right and what is wrong. So therefore, any judgement toward someone for being wrong or evil is disingenuous and is a result of your own ego wanting to build yourself up and to put others down.

Shame and fear are the ultimate barriers for enlightenment. Yet that is all our society consists of. Making other people feel shameful for who they are and self condemning themselves as well. We put people in jails and mental hospitals not because we want to keep society safe but because we want to feel like we are morally superior to them. If we really wanted to heal society and to create a better and safer world then we would try to understand their perspective and see them as if they were our brother or sister who is hurt. I am not saying that we should release them all. But we need to learn to see things through other peoples perspective because then you can see their suffering and you can see why they behave the way that they do and once they recognize that you are valuing their perspective they automatically become less violent and agitated. Because they will not feel alone anymore and most trauma is a result of neglect and not being paid attention to as a child.

Everything boils down to intuition, communication, everything from killing someone to choosing whether to smoke cigarettes or not. The cancer of the world is lack of communication.

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

So what about all the people who went through "trauma" and terrible childhoods who are living normal lives and not taking it out on others? That takes hard work, discipline, and determination. Why would we reward individuals who go through life behaving selfishly, lazily, and without regard for their peers? In order for our society to survive we must separate those people from everyone else. Once they are separate from us, we separate them again. The ones who can be reformed and those who can't. There are exceptions to that and the system isn't perfect, but its better than the alternative.

You don’t know everybody’s trauma or the extent to which someone has trauma in order for you to know that this particular person over here has the same exact trauma as this person over there. It’s not like people are going to openly express everything to you that’s vulnerable or personal to them. And expecting someone to be the perfect person and to just have discipline is not enough. Yeah it’s easy to say to someone that they need discipline in order to be worthy in your eyes, but that will mostly only work for people who have low level traumas. How can you expect a psychotic person to just have discipline and not act like that?? Just think of the immense pressure that they feel on a daily basis that causes them to think in that way or to behave in that way. It is not entirely up to their control and they lack awareness of their own free will.

And it’s not about rewarding people. Valuing other peoples perspective is just something we should do all the time to gain knowledge and awareness about the world. And it is one step closer to instigating true genuine connection and unity and peace on earth. Yeah that might sound cheesy to some people or unrealistic or something but i don’t think people really know how much of a difference it actually makes when people feel like they are being acknowledged. You don’t even have to agree with them. You just have to not make them feel like they are a lower person than you or that there is something wrong with them that requires a label like schizophrenic or bipolar. That causes more separation and confusion and causes the recipients of those labels to rebel even further. It only causes more agitation and disruption in society and distances people from eachother further. It’s not about being lazy or selfish or even being considerate towards your peers. If you are not being considerate with someone else’s reality then how can you expect them to be considerate to yours? Laziness and selfishness in and of itself only a result of trauma as well.

And how exactly do you plan to keep them separate?? I’m having trouble understanding how you think humans can be separated when we all live on the same earth. There are prisoners separated on islands but that does not stop them from escaping or trying to escape. And you still need people who are of sound mind to help manage those people so that they do not violate any established rules between the divided communities. There is no other option but to try and understand the person instead. Any other alternative will lead to destruction and conflict.

 

[PtahTek]

Most convicts and people that practice deviant behavior don't own up to their crimes. They blame their parents and society because they don't know how to accept what they have done

True that been there.
I am my best friend and worst enemy (in a title match).
It causes a lot of pain for some to "own up" to past deeds or jobs.
i told my shrink i think when i quit self medicating all my past started to come to the front lines to battle.
i can beat em back but it is not easy on a fragile mf.
i am now trying to get assistence and seems to be going through
there are immediate needs for many

 

[PtahTek]

Everything boils down to intuition, communication, everything from killing someone to choosing whether to smoke cigarettes or not.

Now hold on.
Light a cig or put the red dot on a mf.
OK.
Intuition may tell me that maybe I donnot need that cig.
Communication (or lack thereof) will have inpact with red dot at times.
There is no freakin way imo to expresss with txtg what we actually feel. Preposterous, in fact.
My best

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

Tell that to the Judge that just had to sentence the guy that systematically, with his car, plowed down 57 people in the Waukesha Christmas parade.

6 were killed and the other 51 were seriously injured. Think there's no right or wrong maybe you can send the guy a letter while he's serving his 6 life sentences.

That is tragic but judging them and punishing them and making them feel like a lower person doesn’t do anything. It just serves your ego and your own subjective emotions and opinions of them. And it gives the illusion of safety and security but yet there are many others like him that are multiplied and scattered around the earth so it doesn’t really make a difference either way and the conditions that caused that behavior within him still exist in society aka not taking proper care of children and not resolving trauma within oneself.

Your damn straight we put people in prison. I suppose we could let them come stay with you.

Your argument only flies if you let the school shooters, the mass killers, the serial killers, the pedophiles and the like come stay at your house, in your neighborhood and have dinner at your table. When you figure out if they know right from wrong you can let us know. And if you think Society feels they are morally " above " these people because we don't want them raping and killing our loved ones I feel sorry for you.

Not necessarily. I think I can make my point just fine without having them over. It is just basic human needs that I am telling you here. Besides, I am not even saying that we should release them. I am just saying we should at least listen to their perspective objectively without letting our emotions and judgements get in the way of our logic and reasoning skills. That’s how they are able to get them to confess certain things. It’s understandable why you would be so furious at someone like that but at the same time you have to realize that your strong emotional reaction is actually simultaneously preventing you from observing the situation as objectively as possible or the best possible way to be aware of the situation and you might come up with a solution that is more controlling and domineering and condemning instead of loving and unifying and healing. Because if we try to come up with solutions when we are in a agitated emotional state or fear state how can you expect that to be a well thought out and logical solution? It is only out of fear and judgement. That is why prisons and mental hospitals prevent nothing. Especially people who have been in juvies and jails since they were kids. How can you expect them to behave when they have been disciplined and abused for all their lives without any escape? And they were abused by the people who are supposed to be the authority and the people who look after you or the people who are helping society become a better place by watching over prisoners or something. Not to mention the fact that they are already so familiar with that environment it’s not as much of a punishment to them.

And yes even though it might be morally better to not kill someone you still have to deal with the fact that there are people who feel justified in doing so. So if this is an ongoing problem then it’s not about morals something else is driving them to do the things that they do and it doesn’t really matter how much we punish them just because we have our own sense of morality that we want to impose on them which is futile. Because I agree with you that murder is wrong but not everyone is going to agree and a civilization cannot stand with that kind of division. It will ultimately lead to the destruction of both you and the convict. Unless you die of old age before that happens but what will your children go through?

I never want to see things from their perspective. Their suffering is no greater than what they inflicted on society. They don't become less violent and less agitated because you said " hey buddy....I feel ya. Yeah, the world sucks ". Only medication and incarceration does that. Most convicts and people that practice deviant behavior don't own up to their crimes. They blame their parents and society because they don't know how to accept what they have done.

So are we just gonna medicate and sedate them and keep doing that to them for eternity while there are still more criminals being produced? It doesn’t make much sense. You have to spend more money to provide medication and build more prisons. That’s pretty much the only thing that happens. What happens when we don’t have enough money or resources to keep the prisons up? It is only one step to Armageddon because they have built this systems and institutions out of fear and ego and incomplete thinking and they are destined to fail.

And yes they do have responsibility for their actions but there are many traumas and thought patterns that are put onto people that make it harder for them to have control over their actions. More so than the average person. That’s why people have addictions. Yeah they are responsible for their actions and they are responsible for their healing and they do need to use discipline but telling them that in the way that we do causes them to withdrawal more and cause them to resist seeking help even further. So if that makes it worse for them then wh y would you keep doing it unless you were only serving yourself and not others?

I understand that doing drugs is not the same as killing people(or at least not always) but there’s a similarity in the psychology of both to where they have impulses that they cannot fully control and therefore makes life miserable for them and those around them. So if they do not have full control of what they are doing how could you expect them to feel guilty about what they have done? If you take a child and beat them and shame them for their whole childhood how can you expect them to know the difference between who to trust in society? How can you expect them to have morals?

You may not think there is any right and any wrong and you can live that way as long as you never get involved with the judicial system or the mental health system but once you are they will determine what is right and what is wrong for you. You lose your say in the matter. They choose for you.

You say that as if I’m not already aware that the judicial and mental health system is damaged and places labels on people in order to fit their limited understanding of them and all they know how to do is shove pills down peoples throats and treat them like animals. They like telling people what to do because they like the control and the feeling of moral superiority over others. They do nothing to actually help them heal.

And I’m sure you would say that if they don’t want to be treated like animals then they shouldn’t act like it. But the thing is that the reason they are acting like animals in the first place is because someone treated them like an animal when they were a kid. And now you are doing the same thing to them and perpetuating their dark and rebellious tendencies without even realizing what you’re doing. Because on one hand you want people like that to not exist but on the other hand your behavior is actually fueling their behavior and creating more of them haha. Or at least that’s how I see it. I know you don’t agree.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

^ I don't agree but i respect your opinion and I respect the time you took to respond.

 

[Mjäll]

Shared perspective is the important thing

 

[bongdong]

Are you people kidding me? I spend a good half an hour to write a thought out response here, in the P&S forum, and it was deleted immediately!

"Reason: inappropriate" And I don't even see who "decided" to do so. And it was like minutes after I posted it, hardly enough to read it through? What is this?

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Are you people kidding me? I spend a good half an hour to write a thought out response here, in the P&S forum, and it was deleted immediately!

"Reason: inappropriate" And I don't even see who "decided" to do so. And it was like minutes after I posted it, hardly enough to read it through? What is this?

Calling us all motherfuckers is inappropriate. And there were several other comments that were rude and inappropriate as well.

Don't like getting your post deleted might wanna tone it down a bit. And I was the one that deleted it.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

 

[bongdong]

Calling us all motherfuckers is inappropriate. And there were several other comments that were rude and inappropriate as well.

Don't like getting your post deleted might wanna tone it down a bit. And I was the one that deleted it.

My goodness, you have a hard time grasping sarcasm or cynicism, have you darling? But it's clear that you are quite triggered by this topic, ..so. But I'm not gonna lie, I'm a bit disappointed cause I remember you as severely tolerant and reflective. What a pity.

I even wrote at the end, I recommended that you don't take it personal.

I wonder if at least some people from this thread got my post, like per e-mail notifaction, it would certainly be nice if @ovenbakedskittles received it.

And @Mr. Krinkle is already celebrating. He's not offended, how is that possible?

I think, I'm outta here. Again. I'm not gonna bend my language to fit in some Sr. Moderators hurt ass. Let me guess, you will delete that too.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

don't let my smilie dissuade you - im still highly offended for you


but hey how did you make it say "resident hermit" under your name?

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Sorry darling, I have no recollection of you thinking I was severely tolerant and reflective. At least you never told me so and I'm sorry i disappointed you.

I wasn't triggered. You @ me in your deleted post and I read it. Starting off calling us all motherfuckers ( any yeah, they all say it was sarcasm ) was okay at first but your post was rude to others as well.

Maybe you can try harder next time you join us to be a bit more civilized and choose your words a bit more carefully.

 

[Jabberwocky]

There are 2 basic ways you can look at the universe with our current human conditioning - personal and impersonal.

If viewed personal there is right or wrong, up and down, black and white with boundaries in between. Shades that we call persons.

If viewed impersonal then there are no such things as all is one and is not devided. So there are no actual distinction.

In USA personal pure view would be Christianity, and pure impersonal view is atheism that finds refuge in Science.

If you would go to Asia there would be a multitude of differnt examples but I will stick with this one. Personal view would be Hindu bhakti path, and impersonal Mahayana or Zen Buddhism.

Impersonal view is possible to implement only if everyone is on the same page and pure as Buddha or Christ are described. But it always translates into communist authoritarian system. It is a great view but not really compatible with current human species stage of development. First you should have almost perfectly harmonious human beings before any possibility for systems based on impersonal view to emerge. So even the new atheists types that say there is no free will have lots of contradictions in their speech and actions. And if we believe that there is such thing as logic or truth than we can't begin to implement impersonal systems cause it would end with another Stalin or Mao like state.

We are stuck with personal systems and can talk philosophy or metaphysics all day and night, but that does not change a thing. Cause those that say there is no free will also look left and right before crossing the street and demand justice when they are wronged.

Or to put it simpler- either you are responsible for your actions or you are not. But then you are not responsible for your success either. Actually there is no "I or you" in the impersonal/no free will world. I have appreciation for that view but it is not how we behave. If I had to describe that view and give simple explanation I would do the Advaita Vedanta: "We are all God and have made a program where to enjoy it you must forget who you are. And then program runs itself down with stop statement "Only I Am" and then it creates another system, another "Big Bang" statement to run it again in slightly differnt form. And like that in perpetuity.

I appreciate all views that I am aware of, but I would not like to live in certain kinds of realities. The same way that I apreciate all food but would not want to be forced to eat insects or brocoli.

And again I am babbling. Like the whole world is. Does it mean anything. In one context yes in another no. In one context I am helping to create the Tower of Babel and in the other there is just noise.

Pick your poison. If you can.

 

[RomanJ]

Bizarrely I was thinking about this today.
So much of our society is about shame.
If someone doesn't fit into the 'box' that society says is normal behavior, then they are looked down upon, and eventually that person feels excluded and alone in the world.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

We are stuck with personal systems and can talk philosophy or metaphysics all day and night, but that does not change a thing. Cause those that say there is no free will also look left and right before crossing the street and demand justice when they are wronged.

Or to put it simpler- either you are responsible for your actions or you are not. But then you are not responsible for your success either. Actually there is no "I or you" in the impersonal/no free will world. I have appreciation for that view but it is not how we behave. If I had to describe that view and give simple explanation I would do the Advaita Vedanta: "We are all God and have made a program where to enjoy it you must forget who you are. And then program runs itself down with stop statement "Only I Am" and then it creates another system, another "Big Bang" statement to run it again in slightly differnt form. And like that in perpetuity.

Yes

Personal view would be Hindu bhakti path

Nice choice, Bhakti is good in all forms it may arise.

"You see a man? Jai Mahadev
You see a Woman? Jai Maa Parvati" - A quote from a Naga & Aghori Baba I'm a fan of

EDIT - Here you go, you'll like this I think

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