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Why is so much MDMA manufactured in Holland ?

The Dutch are also responsible for some pretty amazing coups in hiding products. They sold MDMC (methylone) as Explosion 'room odouriser' for years without any authorities catching on. AFAIK it's still not covered by the Opiumwed (law controlling drugs) which is interesting. It IS controlled under some medicine laws, but because MDMC freebase really does have a strong perfume, it really is 'duel use'.

It's so annoying that the UK just made ANYTHING psychoactive illegal UNLESS it was made an exception. That said, I still think their are ways around it. After all, nalidixic acid is sold as an antibiotic for fish. It's more or less impossible to prove that people intend to take it rather than cure fish... and that is just 1 example.
 
90sdance said:
Can someone please explain this ? How come almost all MDMA (or at least real/quality MDMA) comes from the Netherlands ? I can understand how cocaine comes from certain countries in latin america, and how poppyfields are located in certain geographic areas and so on. But as MDMA can presumably be made anywhere why is its production almost non existent in most of the world ? I cant understand this, like why the Netherlands and not Germany or France ? or the US or Russia ? or China. I would have actually thought allot of poorer countries would be rife with the illicit manufacture of MD but it does not seem to be the case.
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Netherlands also produces A LOT of good-high quality amphetamine sulphate
 
bingey said:
Yes a lot of the MDMA labs also put out speed or speed oil.
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I think Poland is a larger amphetamine producer. There are good reasons for that but the EMCDDA gives a LOT of data which would take pages to repeat. It also shows interesting patterns like some nations mostly wanting amphetamine, others mostly wanting methamphetamine. In the scheme of things, neither is synthetically complex but scaling has shown some really clever problem solving.
 
bingey said:
Yes a lot of the MDMA labs also put out speed or speed oil.
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When I was on amphetamine sulphate all the time, I had a great online supplier in the netherlands who's stuff was consistently 75-80% purity (the nature of this drug means that 82% is the highest possible purity), was a decent price and because I was a regular (I bought 28g every 28 days) they gave me 20% extra every time, rounded up, I I actually got 34g.
 
Fertile said:
I think Poland is a larger amphetamine producer.
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dont know about this. but the Czech Republic is notoriously know as a big producer for methamphetamine. also from a newspaper article i read some years ago that meth is also more and more produced in the netherlands.
 

Someone has perfected a (meth)amphetamine lab design that uses multiple productions lines in parallel. No glass is used. 50L stainless steel beer barrels are used as reaction vessels and somewhere an experienced welder is producing huge still-heads & Liebig-type condensers Heating it undertaken using bottled propane (so no unexpectedly large energy bills) & the freebase (meth)amphetamine is converted to it's phosphate salt.

The phosphate salt was a Russian (or possibly Soviet) invention. It was a Russian-language paper that first details it and proves to be MUCH simpler than producing the sulfate and only slightly more complex than making the hydrochloride - BUT it's suitable for both amphetamine and methamphetamine.

Almost all of the BMK is produced in Russia (where it is legal) in commercial reactors. A specific side-product identifies it. But people have produced MANY addition complexes so that a white solid rather than a liquid is transported - and much harder to divert.
The ONLY difference is that formamide (also a common solvent) is used to make amphetamine or is made from ammonia & formic acid (actually it makes ammonium formate but heat causes dehydration).N-methyl formamide has to be made from methyl amine and formic acid. In fact, N-methyl ammonium formate likewise loses water when heated producing the N-methyl formamide.

It's a VERY simple way to make (meth)amphetamine. Not the simplest nor cleanest nor the highest yielding BUT it can be scaled. The only limits are how efficiently the mixture can be heated and how excess heat can be removed.

I've seen one lab in Poland that had 6 of these beer-barrel type reaction setups all in the cellar of a closed brewery. They just scoop of the freebase product (in normal kitchen plastic vessels) and add phosphoric acid. In 1 8 hour shift they could produce about 180Kg of amphetamine or methamphetamine.

What is important to know is that although supposedly similar, some nations prefer amphetamines, others prefer methamphetamine. It may be cultural as to how people use their stimulant of choice but the production costs are the same BUT meth is worth more.... so I'm sure attempts were made to introduce meth into nations that prefer speed.... but it didn't work, or at least speed it considered a soft-drug, meth a hard drug (in social circles, not in law).
 
If you've got BMK, why not ask haribo for the article on stereo selective generation of MDE from PMK and apply it to BMK to yield dextro / S / + ethylamphetamine?
 
Fertile said:
The Dutch are also responsible for some pretty amazing coups in hiding products. They sold MDMC (methylone) as Explosion 'room odouriser' for years without any authorities catching on. AFAIK it's still not covered by the Opiumwed (law controlling drugs) which is interesting. It IS controlled under some medicine laws, but because MDMC freebase really does have a strong perfume, it really is 'duel use'.

It's so annoying that the UK just made ANYTHING psychoactive illegal UNLESS it was made an exception. That said, I still think their are ways around it. After all, nalidixic acid is sold as an antibiotic for fish. It's more or less impossible to prove that people intend to take it rather than cure fish... and that is just 1 example.
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The IDF uses it to combat PTSD
 
Fertile said:

Someone has perfected a (meth)amphetamine lab design that uses multiple productions lines in parallel. No glass is used. 50L stainless steel beer barrels are used as reaction vessels and somewhere an experienced welder is producing huge still-heads & Liebig-type condensers Heating it undertaken using bottled propane (so no unexpectedly large energy bills) & the freebase (meth)amphetamine is converted to it's phosphate salt.

The phosphate salt was a Russian (or possibly Soviet) invention. It was a Russian-language paper that first details it and proves to be MUCH simpler than producing the sulfate and only slightly more complex than making the hydrochloride - BUT it's suitable for both amphetamine and methamphetamine.

Almost all of the BMK is produced in Russia (where it is legal) in commercial reactors. A specific side-product identifies it. But people have produced MANY addition complexes so that a white solid rather than a liquid is transported - and much harder to divert.
The ONLY difference is that formamide (also a common solvent) is used to make amphetamine or is made from ammonia & formic acid (actually it makes ammonium formate but heat causes dehydration).N-methyl formamide has to be made from methyl amine and formic acid. In fact, N-methyl ammonium formate likewise loses water when heated producing the N-methyl formamide.

It's a VERY simple way to make (meth)amphetamine. Not the simplest nor cleanest nor the highest yielding BUT it can be scaled. The only limits are how efficiently the mixture can be heated and how excess heat can be removed.

I've seen one lab in Poland that had 6 of these beer-barrel type reaction setups all in the cellar of a closed brewery. They just scoop of the freebase product (in normal kitchen plastic vessels) and add phosphoric acid. In 1 8 hour shift they could produce about 180Kg of amphetamine or methamphetamine.

What is important to know is that although supposedly similar, some nations prefer amphetamines, others prefer methamphetamine. It may be cultural as to how people use their stimulant of choice but the production costs are the same BUT meth is worth more.... so I'm sure attempts were made to introduce meth into nations that prefer speed.... but it didn't work, or at least speed it considered a soft-drug, meth a hard drug (in social circles, not in law).
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Why do you think methamphetamine is more desirable then dextroamphetamine for consumers?
 
Adderall is great, but ICE Amphetamine is a rare bird: Very quick reflexes and reaction times but terrible for sex and zero attention span.
 
Stereoselective synthesis needs a lot more kit - a hydrogenation unit for a start, so scaling is costly. This is all about CHEAP. That's why speed is about £2500/Kg
 
Fertile said:
What is important to know is that although supposedly similar, some nations prefer amphetamines, others prefer methamphetamine. It may be cultural as to how people use their stimulant of choice but the production costs are the same BUT meth is worth more.... so I'm sure attempts were made to introduce meth into nations that prefer speed.... but it didn't work, or at least speed it considered a soft-drug, meth a hard drug (in social circles, not in law).
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I think it’s something cultural indeed but I wouldn’t say that meth is worth more money, on the street both are worth around 50eur/g, some want more, some less but I think this is a reasonable price for both substances. Over here you rarely get uncut Amphetamine, meth is mostly sold relatively pure so that you can vape it.
 
It is possible to produce a form of amphetamine that can be vaped but culturally, it isn't connected with that ROA.

I have seen bout a dozen speed labs all using the stainless steel + propane heating design. Someone is making a fortune setting these labs up, likely training the 'cooks' at the same time.

Most likely they are connected to the people who supply BMK. Formamide is very common and apart from an acid to form the addition salt, that is all you need.

These days I presume sensible producers use counter surveillance. It's not a business I would ever want to go anywhere near. For a start, amphetamine is illegal.
 
Fertile said:
It is possible to produce a form of amphetamine that can be vaped but culturally, it isn't connected with that ROA.
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everybody knows this. amphetamine.HCl isnt hygroscopic either. not everybody is in need to spread lies that some jerk of pharmacology put into the world...

btw, if you have your equipment, costs for making 1kg of amphetamine the beginner way (nitropropene) are around 400-500eur, id say. most goes out for solvents and time to come to a kg in multiple batches. is this estimate halfway accurate? fertile? if you have a way to reuse your solvents its easy to make your own living as a beginner cook this way. but i wouldnt encourage it, getting busted is easy, i know some cooks that had their time in prison because of exactely this. and producing amphetamine isnt exactely neccessary over here, its everywhere and not exactly something what the world needs now...
 
I thought amphetamine hydrochloride WAS hygroscopic - that's why the much more complex formation of the sulfate is undertaken. About 20 years ago some people on Russian Hyperlab were discussing the simplest non-hygroscopic addition salt one could made with amphetamine.... and they settled on the phosphate.

And these were people who also made MDMA and mephedrone, so they did know how to make hydrochloride salts of drugs.
 
Fertile said:
so they did know how to make hydrochloride salts of drugs.
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any stoner dude from high school can do this. sometimes its not the most farvorable of all salt forms possible to make. but bubbling HCl gas through your solution isnt exactely why you have to go to uni...
 
izo said:
any stoner dude from high school can do this. sometimes its not the most farvorable of all salt forms possible to make. but bubbling HCl gas through your solution isnt exactely why you have to go to uni...
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Yes - and being hygroscopic is one reason that the hydrochloride isn't used. Don't forget, this isn't stability over a hours or days, it's stability over months and even years. The sulfate is actually hygroscopic, but it's still more stable than the hydrochloride.

I PRESUME all of the various formulations of amphetamine used medically... are the sulfate or the phosphate.... and the last time I checked, they DO require a postgraduate qualification to get a job.
 
Fertile said:
I PRESUME all of the various formulations of amphetamine used medically... are the sulfate or the phosphate.... and the last time I checked, they DO require a postgraduate qualification to get a job.
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this is right, sulphate and phosphate salts are used in the usa. over here in germany only the sulfate is in use and there is no medicament on the market. whoever gets amphetamine prescribed over here gets it in a pharmacy made formulation, raspberry sirup is preferred, to prevent abuse like nasal consumption.
 
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