Kratom and opiate dosing

[CAfurbabyMama]

Is there a way to calculate a Kratom dose by gram to an opiate mme dose, and if not, what would be someone’s best educated guess?… or in other words, what gram dose of Kratom would be to say 40mg of Oxycodone ir, or can that even be compared?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Difficult to compare especially against such a high dose of kratom. Kratom has a ceiling to its opioid effect.

I would compare 10-15g of high quality kratom to roughly 7-15mg of oxycodone. (With no opioid tolerance)

But that dose of kratom comes with all sorts of other effects and side effects. Going above that dose of kratom is going to produce even more side effects and it's even more difficult to compare, and then you hit a ceiling where taking any more kratom will simply make you very sick.

It may be easier to compare a kratom extract, but I don't have much experience with those.

 

[bingey]

Yah kratom has a dysphoric and vomit inducing ceiling which makes it worthless if one is trying to chase a real buzz.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Yah kratom has a dysphoric and vomit inducing ceiling which makes it worthless if one is trying to chase a real buzz.

Seems to be very different in different people. I know somebody around here maintained a 100g'/d habit for some time. I find that it has a ceiling already at maybe 10g where more doesn't mean more effects. This makes it quite underwhelming for myself even when I value it for its calming properties (the opposite of which happens during kratom withdrawal). Never got any hint of nausea from kratom but neither from other drugs.

 

[CAfurbabyMama]

All great points, I love being able to bounce stuff off you guys. A lot of brains here! I don’t really care too much about a buzz, it’s more for pain management and less side effects. I’m new to Kratom and I’m still learning about it. I’m on the hunt for the sweet spot to manage my back pain. I’m using the red Bali at a dose of between 2.5-3g. Pain-wise morning’s are the worse for me. Waking up my pain has me where I’m ready to jump outta my skin; I take 2.5g of Kratom, 30mg of Oxy ER then wait till afternoon to take 20-30mg of Oxy IR. But by 9pm my pain starts ramping up and I don’t have enough IR to take for the rest of the night. I need something to bridge the gap from 9pm-morning. I am popping Kratom all night starting with 3g then about 2g every hour. (I definitely think I’m fucking up at that point). Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! Thanks guys!

 

[plumbus-nine]

Don't worry about the Kratom, 2.5g are still an extremely low dosage. If it helps you, take more of it. In my experience I could take up to 15g for some months and get away with it in regards to withdrawal. But I seem to have high natural tolerance for Kratom.

Did you ever try to use DXM as a potentiator for the oxy?

 

[Jabberwocky]

All great points, I love being able to bounce stuff off you guys. A lot of brains here! I don’t really care too much about a buzz, it’s more for pain management and less side effects. I’m new to Kratom and I’m still learning about it. I’m on the hunt for the sweet spot to manage my back pain. I’m using the red Bali at a dose of between 2.5-3g. Pain-wise morning’s are the worse for me. Waking up my pain has me where I’m ready to jump outta my skin; I take 2.5g of Kratom, 30mg of Oxy ER then wait till afternoon to take 20-30mg of Oxy IR. But by 9pm my pain starts ramping up and I don’t have enough IR to take for the rest of the night. I need something to bridge the gap from 9pm-morning. I am popping Kratom all night starting with 3g then about 2g every hour. (I definitely think I’m fucking up at that point). Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! Thanks guys!

I would advise not to take the kratom and oxy at the same time. Kratom has alkaloids that are mu antangonists which theoretically will reduce the oxy strength.

I'd suggest staggering the doses a few hours apart, use the kratom to help with pain in between oxy doses.

Just a suggestion. Your own experience may vary. I'm not a chronic pain patient.

Kratom is both an agonist and antagonist which means it both blocks and adds to other opioids, but the general anecdotal consensus is that it increases tolerance to other opioids.

I would also advise to reduce the frequency of the kratom doses, tolerance rises extremely fast with frequent doses, a lot quicker than oxy.

There's a saying with kratom "Less is more.", this is because tolerance rises quickly, the less you use the more effective it is.

 

[CAfurbabyMama]

Thank you Snafu, I tried your approach and it seemed to help. What’s DXM?

 

[cdin]

Difficult to compare especially against such a high dose of kratom. Kratom has a ceiling to its opioid effect.

I would compare 10-15g of high quality kratom to roughly 7-15mg of oxycodone. (With no opioid tolerance)

But that dose of kratom comes with all sorts of other effects and side effects. Going above that dose of kratom is going to produce even more side effects and it's even more difficult to compare, and then you hit a ceiling where taking any more kratom will simply make you very sick.

It may be easier to compare a kratom extract, but I don't have much experience with those.

it took me a while, but i've finally scooted that way down. IMO if you have good fresh quality / potent red,
it doesn't HIT quite the same, but tolerance / addiction wise i feel it's about 5mg hydro to 1.5g krat.
20-30mg hydro is where i start getting real noticeable withdrawals, same w 9-11g kratom.

 

[CAfurbabyMama]

Thank you Snafu, I tried your approach and it seemed to help. What’s DXM?

Also the Kratom has REALLY helped with anxiety! My Dr cut me off of Valium and my anxiety has been as bad as my physical pain, I wish I could have found it sooner. It still isn’t as good as the Valium, but I’ll take what I can get since no other Dr will write me a script (damn I want some)! OK, I’m gonna get mushy here; it’s really nice to have people like you to bounce stuff off of when knowing your hearts and caring and harm reduction…so, thanks guys, big time

 

[WellTramer]

It depends on potency, quality and type of kratom. Once i almost overdosed on huge dose of gold mixed with Red. It can be really strong, but not as enjoyable as traditional opioids like hydrocodone, dihydrocodeine, oxycodone, even tramadol if u can metabolize it to O-DSMT.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Is there a way to calculate a Kratom dose by gram to an opiate mme dose, and if not, what would be someone’s best educated guess?… or in other words, what gram dose of Kratom would be to say 40mg of Oxycodone ir, or can that even be compared?

Actually I prefer Kratom by far. Best opi imo.

But doing, don't quote me on this calculating. 10 to 15 mg Oxy is nowhere near 3 grams high grade Red Borneo.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I don't have any substantial experience with Kratom. I've taken what I would call "gas station" quality Kratom once or twice, so I have no personal, worthwhile knowledge.

I've done some light reading on the subject that doesn't really give us great, specific information that one could take to the bank, but it does give us a good place to start.

Mitragynine and its analog 7-Hydroxymitragynine are the primary, active alkaloids found in Kratom leaf. Mitragynine itself is reported to be 66 times less potent than Morphine, while 7-Hydroxymitragynine is reported to be 5 times more potent than Morphine. Now, the level of 7-Hydroxymitragynine seems to be relatively constant from variety to variety at 2%-3%. The shitty thing is, the levels of Mitragynine itself tend to vary widely, from 12%-60% of all alkaloids. This is a wide range.

However, for sake of providing us with a starting point from which to hopefully branch out, let's start with a Kratom leaf that we will say is right in the middle in regards to Mitragynine content at 35%. We will use one gram of Kratom leaf for our example.

35% of one gram will equal 350mg Mitragynine

2% of one gram will be 20mg 7-Hydroxymitragynine will be 20mg 7-Hydroxymitragynine

We will start by standardizing this to Morphine equivalents. 20mg x 5 = 100mg while 350/66 = 5

So, we are now left with this number of 105 Morphine Milligram Equivalents or MMM's. To me, this number seems a little bit high. Now, the literature I was reading was conducting experiments using Subcutaneous Injections. The majority of Opioid analogs that I'm familiar with follow a pretty disproportionate bioavailability relative to route of administration, with oral administration often being only 1/3 the potency of an injection administration.

We're really making a lot of guesses at this point, but with this information in mind, I think you could say certain, average Kratom could be as potent as a 30mg oral dose of Morphine or 20mg Oxycodone. That seems a little bit high for me, but I still think these numbers give us something good to start with.

 

[Jitzukid$]

I don't have any substantial experience with Kratom. I've taken what I would call "gas station" quality Kratom once or twice, so I have no personal, worthwhile knowledge.

I've done some light reading on the subject that doesn't really give us great, specific information that one could take to the bank, but it does give us a good place to start.

Mitragynine and its analog 7-Hydroxymitragynine are the primary, active alkaloids found in Kratom leaf. Mitragynine itself is reported to be 66 times less potent than Morphine, while 7-Hydroxymitragynine is reported to be 5 times more potent than Morphine. Now, the level of 7-Hydroxymitragynine seems to be relatively constant from variety to variety at 2%-3%. The shitty thing is, the levels of Mitragynine itself tend to vary widely, from 12%-60% of all alkaloids. This is a wide range.

However, for sake of providing us with a starting point from which to hopefully branch out, let's start with a Kratom leaf that we will say is right in the middle in regards to Mitragynine content at 35%. We will use one gram of Kratom leaf for our example.

35% of one gram will equal 350mg Mitragynine

2% of one gram will be 20mg 7-Hydroxymitragynine will be 20mg 7-Hydroxymitragynine

We will start by standardizing this to Morphine equivalents. 20mg x 5 = 100mg while 350/66 = 5

So, we are now left with this number of 105 Morphine Milligram Equivalents or MMM's. To me, this number seems a little bit high. Now, the literature I was reading was conducting experiments using Subcutaneous Injections. The majority of Opioid analogs that I'm familiar with follow a pretty disproportionate bioavailability relative to route of administration, with oral administration often being only 1/3 the potency of an injection administration.

We're really making a lot of guesses at this point, but with this information in mind, I think you could say certain, average Kratom could be as potent as a 30mg oral dose of Morphine or 20mg Oxycodone. That seems a little bit high for me, but I still think these numbers give us something good to start with.

I find your information spot on. Thank you.

 

[RoBoInSlowMo]

Not only does Kratom have a ceiling effect, but potency can vary from batch to batch, as can levels of different compounds present in the drug. In addition to this, the effects of each different "strain" can vary dramatically according to many. Also things such as tolerance, metabolism, subjective effects and much more can play a role into this. Kratom is still fairly misunderstood, and research is limited. Anecdotal evidence is valuable but can also vary quite dramatically.

 

[Aquialla91]

I have never used kratom but I am very interested in knowing when opioids are being used how to introduce kratom so as not to overdose and increase it while using pills; I am chronically ill with cervical and lumbar osteoarthritis, using 800mg tramadol and 400mg tapentadol per day, I see the addiction rapidly increasing the number of pills I was first prescribed 4 years ago and I would like to know if I could eliminate or minimizing the use of these pills by compensating for withdrawal with kratom with an exact guideline on how to do it so that chronic pain and withdrawal cause me as little suffering as possible. Some of your answers make a lot of sense with what I'm looking for but in practice I don't understand them perhaps because of the translation. Maybe someone would help me?