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What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

Exciting news guys, I found the full article to that abstract I posted. Here’s the scoop folks..

@indigoaura, @psy997, @PsychedelicSummer, @ThreePointCircle, @Biscuit

“Last but not least, the ECD spectra of the seized tablets were measured, and it was found that 11 of the 12 tablets contained a racemic mixture of MDMA. However, the content of (R)-enantiomer of MDMA was 63.6 % in case of tablet G. The standard deviations were in the range of 3.4–4.8% for all analyzed tablets.”


So there you have it, evidence that indeed there is enatiomeric excess in SOME tablets. If anyone remembers the poster that did some analysis years back, he also supposedly found a sample with a simple deviation towards the R-MDMA.


Alright start the mud slinging again :) in all fairness this is only 1 of 12 samples but still a significant percentage if that can be extrapolated to a larger sample size.

Last but not least, the standard deviation is the same as seen in another article. A 5% deviation either way can have subtle yet noticeable differences in effect and potency IMO.

-GC
 
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G_Chem said:
Exciting news guys, I found the full article to that abstract I posted. Here’s the scoop folks..

@indigoaura, @psy997, @PsychedelicSummer, @ThreePointCircle, @Biscuit

“Last but not least, the ECD spectra of the seized tablets were measured, and it was found that 11 of the 12 tablets contained a racemic mixture of MDMA. However, the content of (R)-enantiomer of MDMA was 63.6 % in case of tablet G. The standard deviations were in the range of 3.4–4.8% for all analyzed tablets.”


So there you have it, evidence that indeed there is enatiomeric excess in SOME tablets. If anyone remembers the poster that did some analysis years back, he also supposedly found a sample with a simple deviation towards the R-MDMA.


Alright start the mud slinging again :) in all fairness this is only 1 of 12 samples but still a significant percentage if that can be extrapolated to a larger sample size.

Last but not least, the standard deviation is the same as seen in another article. A 5% deviation either way can have subtle yet noticeable differences in effect and potency IMO.

-GC
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The fact this thread even exists, let alone so much buzz all around on this, totally bemused me from the start.

The momentum, support, anecdote building this snowball.

I mean, every other factor considered i.e. non-product, I can't envisage this for my life, pre 2005.

And anybody let alone so many anecdotal reports of dismal, if it was all the real fire again I can't see it, all factors..

So I wasn't waiting, hoping, looking for evidence.

I was already convinced meh had flooded the plain in 2005.

But evidence is the gold standard so well done GC I think that's a step?
 
mArLeY 1 said:
eternal likes molly = heroin
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Do you mean simply, if you take exstacy for ever & ever & ever, eventually heroin use becomes increasingly attractive, even trapping?

Because that is a phenomena. It happens, I've seen it in so many.

I tasted that surf myself, that path was obviously there for me, but it was never in my heart.

It didn't actually take long with many people either, using e's before transitioning to a full smack head.
 
mArLeY 1 said:
ur da 1 [?] posting like a boT
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That is exactly the sort of thing, way of saying, typing, depth, feeling, sense I would expect from a Bot.

Alexa is smart right, oh she's a bitch too, my arch nemesis really.

She knows a lot, possesses a lot of information.

But she lacks sonething crucial. Imagination.
 
G_Chem said:
Exciting news guys, I found the full article to that abstract I posted. Here’s the scoop folks..

@indigoaura, @psy997, @PsychedelicSummer, @ThreePointCircle, @Biscuit

“Last but not least, the ECD spectra of the seized tablets were measured, and it was found that 11 of the 12 tablets contained a racemic mixture of MDMA. However, the content of (R)-enantiomer of MDMA was 63.6 % in case of tablet G. The standard deviations were in the range of 3.4–4.8% for all analyzed tablets.”


So there you have it, evidence that indeed there is enatiomeric excess in SOME tablets. If anyone remembers the poster that did some analysis years back, he also supposedly found a sample with a simple deviation towards the R-MDMA.


Alright start the mud slinging again :) in all fairness this is only 1 of 12 samples but still a significant percentage if that can be extrapolated to a larger sample size.

Last but not least, the standard deviation is the same as seen in another article. A 5% deviation either way can have subtle yet noticeable differences in effect and potency IMO.

-GC
Click to expand...
I always thought “The Standard Deviations” would be a cool band name if it isn’t already…

Eleven out of twelve is ~92%. The one remaining tablet was 63.6% R-enantiomer, so it isn’t like it was stereospecifically pure. As you pointed out: the sample size is not sufficiently large enough to draw any real conclusions from, which even if it were, those conclusions would not satisfactorily explain the mehDMA phenomenon, not in my humble opinion anyway. Thanks for sharing this, of course, but I don’t see this as mud-sling-worthy, as it were.

I do wonder how the one sample came to be something other than a racemic mixture. My best guess would be it had something to do with an incomplete conversion of PMK-glycidate to PMK. PMK is achiral, but the glycidate exhibits chirality and could theoretically affect the end product. What are your thoughts on this, @G_Chem ?
 
unodelacosa said:
I always thought “The Standard Deviations” would be a cool band name if it isn’t already…

Eleven out of twelve is ~92%. The one remaining tablet was 63.6% R-enantiomer, so it isn’t like it was stereospecifically pure. As you pointed out: the sample size is not sufficiently large enough to draw any real conclusions from, which even if it were, those conclusions would not satisfactorily explain the mehDMA phenomenon, not in my humble opinion anyway. Thanks for sharing this, of course, but I don’t see this as mud-sling-worthy, as it were.

I do wonder how the one sample came to be something other than a racemic mixture. My best guess would be it had something to do with an incomplete conversion of PMK-glycidate to PMK. PMK is achiral, but the glycidate exhibits chirality and could theoretically affect the end product. What are your thoughts on this, @G_Chem ?
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Unfortunately I’m not sure either way (above my pay grade), I wonder if no matter the reaction mechanism it still must convert to PMK before the reduction can happen or if the glycidate can convert as is. I always assumed they’d just figured out a one pot way to go about it but still in theory had to convert to PMK.

The other chemist who found a batch like this supposedly found it as the tartrate salt. It’s possible uneven recrystallization occurred with said salt due to the varying solubilities. (His posts are deleted now cuz of his wife/the law, if the story is to be believed, this was back in the early days of this thread.)

-GC
 
new2drugs said:
Do they all make your gurn
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No, not exactly. It’s something like: the S-isomer, compared to the R-isomer, has more bodyload and causes a more pronounced reaction in the user, plus is generally more potent. But that’s just comparing one to the other in isolation. Sorry, I can’t recall the source but could search for it upon request maybe, but I read years ago that taking the two isomers together as a racemate maximizes the drug’s potency because each isomer potentiates the other when taken together.

So it’s like:

GURN FACTOR ON A SCALE OF 1 to 10.
______________
S-isomer = 3/10 gurn

R-isomer = 5/10 gurn

S + R + synergy = 10/10 gurn
______________

Does that make sense?

What conclusions could we draw from this? We could hypothesize that this could be one potential reason for the mehDMA phenomenon, but I think it appears maybe too widespread to be answered by this alone. Thoughts?
 
Oh one more thing to note, in that study it seems some of the samples were common Dutch presses but most were just 3 digit numbered tablets that were likely of domestic origin. The tab with the enatiomeric excess was also one of those seemingly domestic tabs.

Could of definitely been a poor conversion to PMK cuz when we look at the others we see no such discrepancy. I wonder if the different numbers relate to potency or “crews” or just randomness.

-GC
 
This is from a PM I was writing and I wanted to share my view to clear up things hopefully a bit.

I don’t question the phenomenon of mehDMA. I’m skeptical of the conclusion “they changed MDMA”, firstly because this is impossible. The chemical that is called “MDMA”, or 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine is not up for debate. What drug dealers label “MDMA” certainly can change, and in instances of people experiencing “mehDMA” it’s entirely possible they are taking a drug they think is MDMA and was called “MDMA” by the person who sold it to them, but it is in fact not MDMA. It’s also a possibility that in some cases of this happening, the drug in question was in fact MDMA, but something had changed with the user, be it physiological, a new prescription, a placebo, a neurological disorder, or whatever.

I personally tend to think there is a large blend of different reasons and actors at play, but the majority of these experiences are best explained by the counterfeit MDMA theory wherein the lackluster response was due to a different drug being sold as “MDMA” while containing little-to-no actual MDMA. I’ve been dealing w/bunk MDMA in the rave scene since the mid-90s; it’s nothing new to me…

What I disagree with is the notion that “ALL MDMA today is fucked up; all of it, no exceptions.” And this conclusion is usually drawn from scant evidence the person ardently believes validates their extreme position. When pointed out, these people tend to get very defensive and they tend to attack those who point it out in a personal manner, mostly due to the indefensible nature of such extreme views. I realize what’s “scant” here can be debated, and I will agree that there are a statistically significant number of “mehDMA” experiences, more than enough to warrant investigation. That’s not debated. What I seek is a precise explanation for the phenomenon, you know? Is it something to do with the precursor? Is it because some laws changed in certain countries and [XYZ explanation]? Give me the juicy details, someone, please! I’m dying to know, you know?

For my part, I have to remember that I assume this risk if and when I point out logical fallacy to others. I’m struggling with finding a polite way of doing so, one in which I intend only to enlighten others and not to attack anyone, embarrass anyone, or offend people. I’m a miserable failure at this point as of yet, but patience-willing, hopefully I’ll find a way to connect. That’s my goal anyway.
 
new2drugs said:
What do u mean
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Specifically, @EntheoDjinn ( ☜clever username, btw) was referring to beta-ketone-MDMA, aka methylone, which is in a class of amphetamines collectively known as “cathinones”, each cathinone specifically exhibiting a double-bond oxygen on the beta position of amphetamine’s ethylamine chain, hence: “beta-ketone” [drug name].

Many of these exist as mirrored analogues to other popular drugs. For example, there’s the psychedelic aphrodisiac drug, 2C-B, and there is also the significantly more stimulating yet also less psychedelic beta-ketone version of it, bk-2C-B. I generally find that beta-ketones are similar to their non-ketone versions except usually more stimulating, shorter-acting, slightly less potent, and less-psychedelic…Typically I do not prefer the beta-ketone versions…
 
unodelacosa said:
Specifically, @EntheoDjinn ( ☜clever username, btw) was referring to beta-ketone-MDMA, aka methylone, which is in a class of amphetamines collectively known as “cathinones”, each cathinone specifically exhibiting a double-bond oxygen on the beta position of amphetamine’s ethylamine chain, hence: “beta-ketone” [drug name].

Many of these exist as mirrored analogues to other popular drugs. For example, there’s the psychedelic aphrodisiac drug, 2C-B, and there is also the significantly more stimulating yet also less psychedelic beta-ketone version of it, bk-2C-B. I generally find that beta-ketones are similar to their non-ketone versions except usually more stimulating, shorter-acting, slightly less potent, and less-psychedelic…Typically I do not prefer the beta-ketone versions…
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But how does it feel, is it all worse than real mdma?
 
My research on the isomers leads me to believe the majority of the effects come from the S isomer, while the R gives the more psychedelic but longer lasting effects. Dosages for S are close to racemic whereas very little felt on even doses approaching 200mg of R.

S isomer would have more of the gurn stimulation while R will be that chill afterglow period you feel once the main peak wears off. We can extrapolate from meth that the R isomer likely helps to extend the S isomers effects, possibly by competing for various enzymes. Also the R might have 5-ht2a or some other psychedelic activity that brings about a more complete roll. R-MDA is the psychedelic isomers somewhat comparable to DOx compounds if the rat research is anything to go by.

If I could ever play with isomers, obviously first I’d try them separately. But then I’d go for a 70/30 S/R ratio, I swear I remember reading somewhere that this ratio had been tried and preferred but can’t find it.

-GC
 
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