Mental Health Benzos: How bad are they long term?

[darvocet21]

Man, mdma is fucking medicine for the soul. I've been depressed for the last year and the other day my bro visited me with a bag of some proper good dutch HIGH DOSE MDMA pills. I hadnt rolled in a year and a half. FUCK ME, THOSE PURPLE PILLS HIT ME SO HARD. I felt fucking alive again.dam I love MDMA

I'm happy for you. Everybody knows the best acid and E comes out of Holland.

However let's say you had a transformative LSD experience. It would have stuck with you not just for a few days but for the rest of your life.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I've been on diazepam for about 6 months sometimes igo 3 or 4 days without it and I'm fine. 15 mg per day...maybe 3 to 5 days a week. I am for sure dependent on opioids.

But I am having a hard time telling if I'm dependent the diazepam. Thoughts?

 

[darvocet21]

Single doses of MDMA cause more evidence of serotonin depletion than MA (methamphetamine). Which is why I think you think it is more toxic.

However the opposite is true when you look at the damage caused to dopamine neurons. Meth clearly causes more damage and at a fraction of the dose when compared to MDMA.

Meth is also a much more potent cardiovascular stimulant (again comparing mg to mg) making it more toxic to the heart and blood vessels than MDMA.

That is why I said meth is less toxic on some measures. The only measure where MDMA is more toxic than meth is serotonin depletion from a single dose.

For certain mg to mg meth is a more potent toxin otherwise their recommended dosages would be the same.

I'm talking about a barely understood feature arising from the web like shape of neurons. All along them are what are called dendritic spines.

Pretty good description: Dendritic spines are major loci of excitatory inputs and undergo activity-dependent structural changes that contribute to synaptic plasticity and memory formation. Despite the existence of various classification types of spines, how they arise and which molecular components trigger their structural plasticity remain elusive.

...that's odd because I first heard about them and the possible toxic effect of MDMA (compounded by all-night dancing + dehydration and if taken repeatedly at higher doses) from Terence McKenna on a radio broadcast in the early 90s. One would imagine that a lot of investigation had been conducted into their role in consciousness, behavior and, if damaged, of severe depression in former long-term MDMA users.

All I was able to find online is a lot of research into Alzheimer's. It seems they start to degrade in clusters amongst Alzheimer's patients

 

[darvocet21]

I've been on diazepam for about 6 months sometimes igo 3 or 4 days without it and I'm fine. 15 mg per day...maybe 3 to 5 days a week. I am for sure dependent on opioids.

But I am having a hard time telling if I'm dependent the diazepam. Thoughts?

Hi Lucid Dreamer haven't seen you in a while I hope you're well!

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Hi Lucid Dreamer haven't seen you in a while I hope you're well!

Thanks. Emotionally I'm empty and suffering. My drug abuse has been really curbed though. Nothing illegal. Not abusing my scripts too often at all. Lots of weed edibles latley after being clean completely for 3 months...but the weed just stopped working a few days ago Ike it always does....now I just get anxiety amd insomnia from the weed so quit it. It'd a cycle go through I need a tolerance break on the weed I guess.

 

[darvocet21]

Thanks. Emotionally I'm empty and suffering. My drug abuse has been really curbed though. Nothing illegal. Not abusing my scripts too often at all. Lots of weed edibles latley after being clean completely for 3 months...but the weed just stopped working a few days ago Ike it always does....now I just get anxiety amd insomnia from the weed so quit it. It'd a cycle go through I need a tolerance break on the weed I guess.

Sounds about right. I never really was into eating it I don't like to wait that long. Careful with a diazepam. It almost be better switching to any other Benzo except alprazolam. I know somebody who's dog gets alprazolam. And this dog is sketch

 

[simstim]

I'm talking about a barely understood feature arising from the web like shape of neurons. All along them are what are called dendritic spines.

Pretty good description: Dendritic spines are major loci of excitatory inputs and undergo activity-dependent structural changes that contribute to synaptic plasticity and memory formation. Despite the existence of various classification types of spines, how they arise and which molecular components trigger their structural plasticity remain elusive.

...that's odd because I first heard about them and the possible toxic effect of MDMA (compounded by all-night dancing + dehydration and if taken repeatedly at higher doses) from Terence McKenna on a radio broadcast in the early 90s. One would imagine that a lot of investigation had been conducted into their role in consciousness, behavior and, if damaged, of severe depression in former long-term MDMA users.

All I was able to find online is a lot of research into Alzheimer's. It seems they start to degrade in clusters amongst Alzheimer's patients

Interesting. What have you heard or read that MDMA does to dendritic structures?

I think the only thing I've read on the subject of dendritic spines had to do with them increasing with the use of psychedelics. Maybe it was mushrooms? I don't recall exactly. I think it was something posted by @Mr. Peabody

 

[darvocet21]

Interesting. What have you heard or read that MDMA does to dendritic structures?

I think the only thing I've read on the subject of dendritic spines had to do with them increasing with the use of psychedelics. Maybe it was mushrooms? I don't recall exactly. I think it was something posted by @Mr. Peabody

You might be thinking of mushroom spines a term term that's used to refer to fully mature spines that have an axon at their ends.

 

[darvocet21]

Not particularly hepatotoxic or nephrotoxic.

They are associated with cognitive decline, and can permanently desensitize GABA receptors to the effects of endogeneous GABA even after discontinuation. This is a form of brain damage, I've certainly been a victim of this.

There is also some speculation that they may be carcinogenic to some degree, specifically increased rates of brain cancers and i believe colorectal cancers if i recall correctly. Supposedly the 7-nitro benzodiazepines are the most carcinogenic (for example clonazepam).

That's another thing I could worry about. But since cigarette smoking has never been conclusively linked to cancer ( only emphysema which is bad enough) I'm not going to fret it

 

[nznity]

How the fk did this become a meth vs MDMA discussion? I was asking bout benzos on the long term ffs hahshahsha

 

[simstim]

You might be thinking of mushroom spines a term term that's used to refer to fully mature spines that have an axon at their ends.

I've been doing some reading about this.

It was definitely psilocybin that I read about causing dendritic structures lost due to depression to regrow. I just accidently found an article about it searching for information about MDMA and dendritic structures. I think this is the whole reasoning behind microdosing actually.

Also, from what I've read it looks like meth, MDMA, and cocaine all cause somewhat similar (to each other) changes to dendritic structures in various brain regions with repeated exposure. They can each lower expression of certain dendritic structures in certain brain regions while increasing their expression in other regions.

I'm not sure that this is indicative of neurotoxicity or that it happens upon a single exposure. It looks more to me like a function of the brain remodeling itself to adapt to the presence of a stimulant (repeated exposure to that stimulant leading to a chronic abundance of neurotransmitters in the brain and the brain trying to adapt to accommodate this bombardment).

In the study I read regarding MDMA and dendritic structures the mice were injected twice daily with 5mg/kg of MDMA, every day for 3 weeks in order to induce changes. One of the stated objectives of the article was to find out whether or not MDMA actually produced these changes, and the article also stated at the beginning that cocaine and meth produced similar changes.

I recently read that some European harm reduction agency recommended humans not to exceed 1.5mg/kg (150mg for a 100kg person) so those mice were rolling their asses off twice a day for three weeks solid in order to produce these changes.

Taking all of that into account I think maybe you're assessment that MDMA is more neurotoxic than meth based on changes in dendritic structures may be false. Especially since I read another article about meth causing similar changes in the expression of dendritic structures throughout the brain.

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that MDMA is not capable of causing more long lasting changes to serotonergic structures in the brain, only that mg for mg methamphetamine is more toxic overall (not just to the brain but other parts of the body as well).

Why I'm arguing that I dunno. Meth in my system encouraging me to delve into the subject most likely!!
Cheers!

 

[simstim]

How the fk did this become a meth vs MDMA discussion? I was asking bout benzos on the long term ffs hahshahsha

Sorry. I'm a tad high.

Let the benzo discussion resume.

On topic- I hadn't heard benzos could be carcinogenic before.

Off topic-nicotine has been shown to have a strong correlation to cancers of the mouth and sinuses in oral (chewing tobacco and dip/snus/snuff) users and nasal users (powdered dry snuff). Why would smoking it not also be likely to cause cancer in the long term?

I would probably be worried about cancer from nicotine before I would be from benzos, but I haven't read up on that.

 

[simstim]

Hey guys,
I've got a couple questions, I'm currently on 20mg diazepam AM and 1-2 2mg clonazepam depending if im relaxed enough to just sleep on one cause I'm going through a rough time atm and sometimes I need 2 to knock me out and stop my racing thought.
Well, I don't plan to be taking this much for a really longggg timeeeee, ill cut off the diazepam and then slowly taper off the clonaz but im scared of WDs, I have plenty of experience with opi and pentinoids wds but I've read BENZO WDS are the WORST. So, sometimes I think of just staying on clonaz indefinitely plus they sell it OTC iny country.
OK, anyway what I wanted to know is:
How detrimental are benzos long term?
Are they hepatoxic or nephrotoxic?
I know they fuck up with memory and shit sometimes but I feel comfy on them and can be productive/functional on them(unlike Opiates)
IM AWARE EVERY DRUG TAKES ITS TOLL ON THE LONG RUN but what if I have an infinite supply and don't really abuse em.
That's pretty much it,
Thanks in advance
nico

If I could get clonazepam OTC I would never stop.

I believe most of the issues with long-term benzo usage are going to be neurological rather than physical. I've not heard of kidney or liver damage from any of the commonly available prescription benzos.

Being on benzos changes the frequency of your brain waves and one of effects of this is the suppression of REM sleep.

From what I have read this can cause cognitive issues as well as contribute to other physical problems (things like cardiovascular issues) and may significantly contribute to a shorter life span. This seems to be caused by the buildup of stress hormones in the body caused by the lack of REM sleep.

Alcohol has a similar effect on REM sleep.

That's about all I can think of that's on topic.

Sorry about helping to sidetrack your thread earlier.

 

[darvocet21]

Meth fueled posts can be fun to read if they use paragraphs. I think there should be a special place here for that.

I'll never forget the poster who claimed a hit or 2 of meth made them run around their house with 4 fingers up the bum using shampoo as lube

Rookie move. Once you've done it a few times you'll know conditioner feels way better

I've been doing some reading about this.

It was definitely psilocybin that I read about causing dendritic structures lost due to depression to regrow. I just accidently found an article about it searching for information about MDMA and dendritic structures. I think this is the whole reasoning behind microdosing actually.

Also, from what I've read it looks like meth, MDMA, and cocaine all cause somewhat similar (to each other) changes to dendritic structures in various brain regions with repeated exposure. They can each lower expression of certain dendritic structures in certain brain regions while increasing their expression in other regions.

I'm not sure that this is indicative of neurotoxicity or that it happens upon a single exposure. It looks more to me like a function of the brain remodeling itself to adapt to the presence of a stimulant (repeated exposure to that stimulant leading to a chronic abundance of neurotransmitters in the brain and the brain trying to adapt to accommodate this bombardment).

In the study I read regarding MDMA and dendritic structures the mice were injected twice daily with 5mg/kg of MDMA, every day for 3 weeks in order to induce changes. One of the stated objectives of the article was to find out whether or not MDMA actually produced these changes, and the article also stated at the beginning that cocaine and meth produced similar changes.

I recently read that some European harm reduction agency recommended humans not to exceed 1.5mg/kg (150mg for a 100kg person) so those mice were rolling their asses off twice a day for three weeks solid in order to produce these changes.

Taking all of that into account I think maybe you're assessment that MDMA is more neurotoxic than meth based on changes in dendritic structures may be false. Especially since I read another article about meth causing similar changes in the expression of dendritic structures throughout the brain.

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that MDMA is not capable of causing more long lasting changes to serotonergic structures in the brain, only that mg for mg methamphetamine is more toxic overall (not just to the brain but other parts of the body as well).

Why I'm arguing that I dunno. Meth in my system encouraging me to delve into the subject most likely!!
Cheers!

Well maybe by example but you're making me as a very good point and that is does anyone know anyone who takes between 5 and 15 mg a day? Come on now. They're both easy to abuse.

 

[darvocet21]

How the fk did this become a meth vs MDMA discussion? I was asking bout benzos on the long term ffs hahshahsha

But do you mean this is bluelight.org where every discussion Works its way back to meth vs. MDMA. They're the only two drugs that matter to people who like to jam four fingers you know where

 

[4meSM]

I think getting into benzos after getting over a long-term addiction to opioids and/or stimulants is a bit of a trap.
It actually makes perfect sense because the mind seeks some form of relief from the paws and other long-term side effects, and drugs such as benzos and alcohol are often able to fill the gap (at least partly).
Benzos are fine for occasional use, but if you start taking them everyday you will end up needing them everyday... One of the main issues is that the anxiety/discomfort will still be there waiting for you (often worse than before), you won't have addressed the underlying causes.
Through my personal experiences with benzos, I realized that daily or very regular binge use actually worsens my anxiety, but I don't notice it until I stop.

It also depends on the dose, but I'd consider 20mg of diazepam and 4mg of clonazepam a fairly high dose (especially the clona in addition to your alcohol use). Of course some people take wayy more than that, but it's definitely enough to develop a real physical and psychological addiction/dependency.
While they might be a more manageable habit compared to IV morphine, I think everyone agrees that heavy benzo WD is way worse and also longer lasting than opioid WD.

Thinking that you're going to stay on them for life may seem tempting, it serves as an excuse not to have to think about a taper, addressing the underlying issues, etc... But you're still young and you never know what's gonna happen in the future, for instance you may find yourself in a situation where you have to keep increasing the dose in order to get the same relief.

 

[darvocet21]

Imagine going to your CVS and then going to 10 more and hearing the same story at each one."we just can't get Suboxone, alprazolam, (((insert your drug of choice)))

Which group of addicts would you consider the most dangerous?
Probably the most scary and unpredictable would be those undergoing chronic alprazolam withdrawals. Like fast moving zombies.

Personally I'd be afraid gangs of Suboxone addicts joining forces to rape, pillage & enslave others. I think the government would have to set up Suboxone Drop Zones that were clearly marked where helicopters could drop off boxes of strips

These are the thoughts that preoccupy me at 5:42 am (and u thot u had problems!)


Ur problems in comparison to mine:

 

[nznity]

Well since I can get boxes and boxes of clonaz and diaz otc, in the foreseeable future I'm not planning to stop. The world is becoming a very dark and depressing place too so everyday that passes I care less about living past the age of 60+ so if I get cognitive issues at that point is not gonna matter. Ill just fill up a rig with .3g of morphine along with 2mg of fent and 20mg of clonaz to never wake up again zzz. Right now, life is somehow still worth living but idk I have an obsession of leaving this planet with a rig in my arm. Anyway ty guys for all the info you were able to provide ✌

 

[darvocet21]

Well since I can get boxes and boxes of clonaz and diaz otc, in the foreseeable future I'm not planning to stop. The world is becoming a very dark and depressing place too so everyday that passes I care less about living past the age of 60+ so if I get cognitive issues at that point is not gonna matter. Ill just fill up a rig with .3g of morphine along with 2mg of fent and 20mg of clonaz to never wake up again zzz. Right now, life is somehow still worth living but idk I have an obsession of leaving this planet with a rig in my arm. Anyway ty guys for all the info you were able to provide ✌

This suicide concoction is just not going to work. First of all the clonazepam is barely soluble in water so you going to need to find something like a propylene glycol solution. But it's a poor choice because it has slow onset of action, even by IV route. You're skimping on the morphine too. And you never know what you getting with fentanyl. I'm guessing you're likely to wake up really itchy and completely confused. Which is a good thing because we don't want you to die.

 

[nznity]

This suicide concoction is just not going to work. First of all the clonazepam is barely soluble in water so you going to need to find something like a propylene glycol solution. But it's a poor choice because it has slow onset of action, even by IV route. You're skimping on the morphine too. And you never know what you getting with fentanyl. I'm guessing you're likely to wake up really itchy and completely confused. Which is a good thing because we don't want you to die.

Im swallowing the clonaz not Iving it, prolly will up the dose of morph to 400mg and I have access to med grade fent. I'm definitely dying with a rig in my arm. It's my will anyway.