Faith-based rehab centers

[Pickledlemons]

The irony being that your belief in science relies on just as much dogma and "faith". You don't truly understand how electricity works. You don't truly understand why you have an electronic encyclopedia in your hand. You just have it. Science can attempt to explain how these things work, but even that is just a theory. Science is a still just a product of the flawed human mind.

You can not say with absolute certainty that God doesn't exist, just like you can't say that God exists either. It's typical human hubris to claim that you have absolute knowledge on any of these subjects. The universe is humongous and we are small travelers on a flying sphere. Reality could be ANYthing. A simulation. An alien game. The product of the big bang. Or the creation of a higher power.

Science and religion both require faith.

Claiming absolute knowledge is simply a human attempt to play God.

I dont want to get into hijacking this thread but I really have to address this... first of all I never said anything about god or faith in my post so just keep in mind those were introduced here by you.

Do you know what science is ? science is a method for determining the truth. This method works by making hypothesis, gathering evidence, doing experiments and trying to prove yourself wrong. If you try and try to prove yourself wrong, and you cant, well you just might have stumbled onto something new.

Now compare that with religion. religion is based on faith, faith is defined as believing without evidence. If you get an idea, you realize it does not line up with your religious scripture and you discard it. You new possibly great idea is lost to the world.

You see now while the scientific method has made almost all the discoveries in the last few hundred years, because they build on their knowledge. Religion has not, because they are a closed off bubble that doesnt allow change. If they do change its because science gets so evolved they start to lose face and move the goal posts.

So, science and religion are only same as far as they are both an attempt to fulfil holes in humans innate desire to understand the world. The difference is science actually furthers that understanding and religion does not.

science does not have: faith, scripture, deities or rituals. without those things, you are not a religion.

As for the ' you cant know god doesnt 100% exist'. In the same way you cant prove there isnt a giant invisible elephant in the room with you, but you dont live your life with the assumption that there is.

I never made the claim there was no god, if there is, they certainly arent the god any of us wrote down in our books thousands of years ago, those would be just the invention of our flawed mind, just that they haven't been improved over time like with science. And if they truly are the creater of the universe they should be on board with removing silly ancient boogey men from our beliefs to help us build a heaven here on earth. And that is what I have been trying to say.

 

[Pickledlemons]

Claiming absolute knowledge is simply a human attempt to play God

I have never claimed absolute knowledge and I never would, that is a religious thing. The very basis of the scientific method is learning from your mistakes and not believing without evidence.

BTW, and I don't mean to be insulting, but your arguments are quite typical among the religious. They tend to make the same arguments again and again and those of us who are passionate on the topic, come across them a lot. I'm sensing a 'shift the burden of proof,' some 'argument from ignorance' maybe even a touch of 'pascals wager' and definitely 'false equivalency(science and religion)'. These have all been debunked countless times.

But I'm really not here to win an argument, I wholeheartedly believe that ridding the world of harmful idealogies will help us build a brighter future. And you absolutely have the right to disagree with me.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

although ive met some friends for life at some jobs, i can't stand the majority of co-workers

no way on earth you'd have to get along with these people if it wasn't for being a slave to a job where you have to spend time with some of the biggest jerkoffs on the planet

you have to pretend to be somebody else....and most importantly, say as little as possible - don't tell anybody shit other than "i heard it might rain tomorrow"

if i were you, i'd use the sign of the cross to my advantage

 

[deficiT]

first of all I never said anything about god or faith

You absolute claimed Christianity to be a dangerous ideology and said the bible has to GO. Sorry but that's extremist new atheist bullshit.

Do you know what science is ?

Yeah, and I explained as much in my posts. Do you know what spiritual knowledge is? It's a very personal thing that helps people gain an understanding of themselves and the universe.

BTW, and I don't mean to be insulting, but your arguments are quite typical among the religious.

And your arguments are copy/paste jobs from people who lack spiritual knowledge and cling so tightly to science, refusing to allow others their beliefs, beliefs that have gone back centuries. I'm not even a practicing Christian, I just believe in spiritual knowledge.

The difference is science actually furthers that understanding and religion does not

Yeah, science furthers our understanding of the universe, but so can religion. Why else would you have monks and such that spend their entire lives seeking enlightenment? Are they just crazy? Just because it isn't YOUR understanding of the universe, doesn't mean it doesn't have value to others. I mean you're talking about erasing the religion of millions and billions of people.

All I'm saying is that there is room for many ways of understanding the universe and that religion and spirituality possess value.

Sorry OP for helping turn this into a debate about religion, but I had to say something.

 

[Pickledlemons]

You absolute claimed Christianity to be a dangerous ideology and said the bible has to GO. Sorry but that's extremist new atheist bullshit.

Well to me theres a difference between god and religion. For example I totally respect deism, but not christianity or islam. Its the ideologies and the cult mentality that I have a problem with. If somebody just believes in higher power but doesn't know what it is, I can and do respect that. And again, I think society would be better off without religion, but I do believe in freedom of worship and that discrimination is not the way to do things. People are the victims of religion, so the way forward is to help and educate people.

Yeah, and I explained as much in my posts. Do you know what spiritual knowledge is? It's a very personal thing that helps people gain an understanding of themselves and the universe.

Great! I'm happy that you understand what science is, so why don't you respond to the original point? As for spirituality, it means something different to everyone so its hard to comment on.

And your arguments are copy/paste jobs from people who lack spiritual knowledge and cling so tightly to science, refusing to allow others their beliefs, beliefs that have gone back centuries. I'm not even a practicing Christian, I just believe in spiritual knowledge.

Yikes

Well science is all about being open minded, questioning your beliefs. Again, science is a method for determining the truth, so as long as something is true, or can be reliable demonstrated, then it becomes part of science. Science isn't a club, its just a means to test and improve upon ideas. It can be applied pretty much anywhere. This thread isn't really about science anyway.

Yeah, science furthers our understanding of the universe, but so can religion. Why else would you have monks and such that spend their entire lives seeking enlightenment? Are they just crazy? Just because it isn't YOUR understanding of the universe, doesn't mean it doesn't have value to others. I mean you're talking about erasing the religion of millions and billions of people.

Okay... ??? I said I wanted to erase billions of people? I dont even know what you're talking about here.

All I'm saying is that there is room for many ways of understanding the universe and that religion and spirituality possess value.

Yes! There are many ways to interpret the universe. I never said religion didn't have value, I said the cons outweight the pros, in my opinion. It soothes our suffering with a false proposition. I just don't think thats good for humanity in the long term. Maybe we can make heaven here on earth. Isn't it worth a try? ( Thanks bo burnham)

Sorry OP for helping turn this into a debate about religion, but I had to say something.

Yes I am also sorry. Maybe if deficiT wants to continue this it could be in PM? Just an idea. Peace.

 

[FunctionalJnkieGrl]

@FunctionalJnkieGrl Good job on landing that job! I think you're doing the right/smart thing; being rational, weighing the pros and the cons and going from there. Share your convictions if you like, ..or not. I wouldn't mind getting "ridiculed" by "religious folks"; that's kind of a funny thought in itself I find. If the recruiting thing becomes too agressive, I would have zero scruple to tell them to fuck right off. Regarding music: I think this is a matter of respect on the one hand (who am I to assume that othes want to hear my/or whatever kind of music), on the other hand, if the job requires actual thinking, music can be a no-go..

Ad normal vs. cult-like: It depends I guess, this preaching thing can/could be institutionalized. Sadly I have witnessed this closely myself and I have to agree with @Pickledlemons, targeting people in a vulnerable situation, e.g. drug rehab, is absolutely disgusting/disgraceful. The other thing I noticed is, people often start to overtly/overly display their faith when they, deep down, have serious doubts about it. If faith-based recovery is a reasonable means to an end, I'm not sure. You're off the heroin, but now your life is mentally confined to this Jesus-prison, for example, ..hmm.


Maybe, but these are pretty different in nature. Statements like that are popular among religious folks, sort of to "upgrade" their faith or make it sound on par with scientific reasoning (..or make it appear less ridiculous, depending what it exactly is). Anyway..

On a lighter note, the factory I work at requires little to no thinking. It is repetitive tasks at best, with varying degrees of how fast one can multitask. As far as the preachy types go, they're pretty good at gauging who is religious and who isn't. I'm just glad nobody has attempted to "save my soul". My beliefs are unyielding, but I by no means have any desire to convert anyone into my way of thinking.

 

[FunctionalJnkieGrl]

My post made me think of this song.

 

[deficiT]

On a lighter note, the factory I work at requires little to no thinking. It is repetitive tasks at best, with varying degrees of how fast one can multitask. As far as the preachy types go, they're pretty good at gauging who is religious and who isn't. I'm just glad nobody has attempted to "save my soul". My beliefs are unyielding, but I by no means have any desire to convert anyone into my way of thinking.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I like to explain how I feel but I couldn't imagine ever acting as a missionary.

I love those jobs. Sometimes it'll involve so little thinking that you lose track and mess things up, simply from having a hard time paying attention to the mind numbing repetitive task.

 

[negrogesic]

I landed a job at a factory that doesn't discriminate against current and recovering addicts--so as long as you're not high while on the clock. I'm very grateful for this job. I can't complain despite the lack of AC, given the decent pay, great hours/schedule, weekends and holidays off, etc. Also, they pay you $100 cash for every month that you aren't tardy or a no-show and pay you $100 for every employee that you recruit. They actually tend to employ mostly newly naturalized citizens, parolees, and recovering addicts. I've noticed a pattern/red flags about the employees from faith-based rehab centers that struck me as odd (who are either there willingly or court-ordered and they don't receive pay). I've learned some things. Practically all of them are VERY religious, physically fit, are only allowed to listen to Christian music, and they all want to speak with you about their Lord and savior. I'm glad they are bettering their lives, but I couldn't help but notice that they seem somewhat cult/hive-minded--as if part of the program is insistent that you convert to Christianity if you aren't already "saved". They seem to believe that recovery is impossible without the acknowledgment of a higher power--which I respectfully disagree with. I have nothing against Christianity. I believe in Jesus and the existence of a God/higher power, just not in the traditional sense that is taught in the bible. I guess what I'm wondering is if this is typical of faith-based in-patient rehab programs. Most of them are recovering from meth addiction, except for maybe 1 or 2 who are ex-alcoholics or opiate addicts. Even most of our supervisors are former members of that particular program. I've always told myself that when I decide I'm ready to seek help for my painkiller addiction, I'd rather go with an out-patient methadone maintenance program. Meeting these folks reinforced that notion despite most of them being very kind-hearted and understanding. I just can't get behind the whole hyper-focus on religion. Is this normal or cult-like? Maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

This setting would make for an interesting novel

In any event religion can make an effective substitute for drugs (thus the opium for masses analogy). Imagine: your life has meaning, purpose, you know what you are here to do! It's not all pointless, there is eternal life and salvation if you just follow these simple rules!. Hey its better than shooting crack in a Del Taco bathroom. But there are some logical limitations to it in the end.

 

[FunctionalJnkieGrl]

Yeah, I feel the same way. I like to explain how I feel but I couldn't imagine ever acting as a missionary.

I love those jobs. Sometimes it'll involve so little thinking that you lose track and mess things up, simply from having a hard time paying attention to the mind numbing repetitive task.

I feel this. The repetition can be rather tediously mind-numbing to the point that I doze off without having taken any painkillers (hey, hey! MEK and glue all day! ). Combine that with lack of AC = exhaustion. This job has been helping me get some of the best sleep I've ever had, giving the grueling conditions (still no complaints there). Most employees here have become best friends with BANG energy drinks. We NEED caffeine. It's a thing here. Pretty sure they'd mainline it if it were possible. Haha.

 

[FunctionalJnkieGrl]

This setting would make for an interesting novel

In any event religion can make an effective substitute for drugs (thus the opium for masses analogy). Imagine: your life has meaning, purpose, you know what you are here to do! It's not all pointless, there is eternal life and salvation if you just follow these simple rules!. Hey its better than shooting crack in a Del Taco bathroom. But there are some logical limitations to it in the end.

As an aspiring writer, I could indeed use my work experience here as source material.

 

[Foreigner]

The whole point of the higher power in recovery is so that you have something reliable to surrender your worries, fears, troubles, etc. to because the world around you is unreliable. These structures are important. When you figure out what that higher power looks like to you, then you can feel the relief in your body when you surrender all your crap to it. That may not be "God" or even religion, it may be something else. For some people, it's science, or nature, or the laws or physics. Whatever it is... it's something you can use to offer your suffering to. For myself, it's as simple as... nature and the universe are way more intelligent than I am, and I am a spec of matter part of a larger force that I can never possibly comprehend... but the larger force is eternal and I can trust that, within it, what is meant to be will be.

People who lack this higher power usually do poorly in recovery, and in life in general. I'm living with a person like that right now. No faith in anything, so he internalizes all his troubles and has no means of escape except through addiction. And that's why higher power in recovery is important. If no other higher power is offered, then addiction remains the higher power.

My problem is that born again Christians tend to be pushy, crazy, and cruel and I stay WAY clear of them. I have had friends in the past who went through recovery and "found Jesus". Their substance abuse ended but they just replaced it with a Jesus addiction and became full on zealots. It was scary, but more socially acceptable than being a drug addict I guess because Christianity is still so embedded in western society.

 

[FunctionalJnkieGrl]

Maybe y'all have heard of the rehab organization called "The Hope Center"? Anyhow, that's where they're from and when I asked another employee (who is a Christian herself, doesn't use drugs at all or drink much, but is a casino/gambling addict) if she was with them, she gave me a resounding "no". She said "Sorry if I sound offended. I'm not. Its just I get asked that when people introduce themselves here and that place just seems sketchy". She told me they wake up at 4am or so to chant and have early morning meetings, strictly monitor brief calls (even to family members that don't drink or use drugs), strongly advise against listening to any music that isn't Christian, and they're on a work contract working full-time here like the rest of us who are legitimately employed--only they're getting paid literally zilch and yet they're required to clock in 10 minutes earlier than the rest of us. When I responded with "sounds almost like a cult". She said, "there ain't no almost about it. It is and they prey on the weak-minded". She was bold enough to half-jokingly say to one of them "it's a cult isn't it? Admit it.", to which of course he replied no but said even if it was, he still respects them from freeing him from his fentanyl addiction, which could've likely taken his life had he not accepted their help (like I've mentioned, most of them are extremely kind and not easily offended). I guess it is what it is. If it helps and it works, then I guess it's better than being in the same boat they were in beforehand. As long as they're more content with their lives now, I suppose that's what matters in the long run.

On an unrelated side-not, I guess it's a plus that The Hope Center allows them to use use caffeine and nicotine still (God knows the vast majority of us might not survive the work-week without it). I heard some rehabs restrict literally anything even subtly mind-altering. I wonder if that includes sugar?

 

[bongdong]

The whole point of the higher power in recovery is so that you have something reliable to surrender your worries, fears, troubles, etc. to because the world around you is unreliable. These structures are important. When you figure out what that higher power looks like to you, then you can feel the relief in your body when you surrender all your crap to it. That may not be "God" or even religion, it may be something else. For some people, it's science, or nature, or the laws or physics. Whatever it is... it's something you can use to offer your suffering to. For myself, it's as simple as... nature and the universe are way more intelligent than I am, and I am a spec of matter part of a larger force that I can never possibly comprehend... but the larger force is eternal and I can trust that, within it, what is meant to be will be.

People who lack this higher power usually do poorly in recovery, and in life in general. I'm living with a person like that right now. No faith in anything, so he internalizes all his troubles and has no means of escape except through addiction. And that's why higher power in recovery is important. If no other higher power is offered, then addiction remains the higher power.

My problem is that born again Christians tend to be pushy, crazy, and cruel and I stay WAY clear of them. I have had friends in the past who went through recovery and "found Jesus". Their substance abuse ended but they just replaced it with a Jesus addiction and became full on zealots. It was scary, but more socially acceptable than being a drug addict I guess because Christianity is still so embedded in western society.

Well put. I'm not sure if you are implying that, but I agree, faith can be a vehicle. The problem is that it almost always leads to ideology in some form or another. Science, nature, the laws of physics etc. is all marvelous and if you have a high-voltage intellect, this will blow your mind (in a Carl Sagan-esque kind of way), but I doubt that this will help the average Joe to 'surrender'. It's not really palpable, and anything but self-centered on top of it; meaning it doesn't go well with people already having hugely inflated egos. So I understand, folks want their 'personal Jesus'; sadly. We've become so good at masking our dis-ease, that things just don't seem to reach 'natural conclusions' anymore.. , but I spare you the philosophical lecture. But it's nowhere written that living in an ever-changing world somehow requires faith of some sort. Anyway.

@FunctionalJnkieGrl I wasn't aware of that at the time you started the thread (I'm from Europe), but I since discovered (by wasting my time on the internet) that this Christian Music thing is a huge huge industry in the US!? A well-oiled (xenophobic, homophobic, women-depreciating, ... <insert more nasty things here/>) propaganda machinery with very clear incentives, it seems. Scary, really. Looks like you are quite relaxed about it all; kudos to you.. (not sure I would be).

On an unrelated side-not, I guess it's a plus that The Hope Center allows them to use use caffeine and nicotine still (God knows the vast majority of us might not survive the work-week without it). I heard some rehabs restrict literally anything even subtly mind-altering. I wonder if that includes sugar?

That's an interesting question. I've thought about this more in a Buddhist context, 'refraining from intoxicants', but given the monastic code (eat only one meal a day, given by the lay community, ..) I wonder how many monks/nuns rely for the most part on sugar water and yet are expected to meditate properly. I see potential problems there, but that's a whole different story I guess..

 

[Shady's Fox]

This must be the biggest reason why all rehab/therapy centers failed. Most therapy center for e.g have at least 1 teacher who's preaching, then in rehab you have loneliness added to this plus a psychologist assisted group therapy. Imagine the negativity, is so dark in there you can cut it with a knife.

 

[FunctionalJnkieGrl]

Well put. I'm not sure if you are implying that, but I agree, faith can be a vehicle. The problem is that it almost always leads to ideology in some form or another. Science, nature, the laws of physics etc. is all marvelous and if you have a high-voltage intellect, this will blow your mind (in a Carl Sagan-esque kind of way), but I doubt that this will help the average Joe to 'surrender'. It's not really palpable, and anything but self-centered on top of it; meaning it doesn't go well with people already having hugely inflated egos. So I understand, folks want their 'personal Jesus'; sadly. We've become so good at masking our dis-ease, that things just don't seem to reach 'natural conclusions' anymore.. , but I spare you the philosophical lecture. But it's nowhere written that living in an ever-changing world somehow requires faith of some sort. Anyway.

@FunctionalJnkieGrl I wasn't aware of that at the time you started the thread (I'm from Europe), but I since discovered (by wasting my time on the internet) that this Christian Music thing is a huge huge industry in the US!? A well-oiled (xenophobic, homophobic, women-depreciating, ... <insert more nasty things here/>) propaganda machinery with very clear incentives, it seems. Scary, really. Looks like you are quite relaxed about it all; kudos to you.. (not sure I would be).


That's an interesting question. I've thought about this more in a Buddhist context, 'refraining from intoxicants', but given the monastic code (eat only one meal a day, given by the lay community, ..) I wonder how many monks/nuns rely for the most part on sugar water and yet are expected to meditate properly. I see potential problems there, but that's a whole different story I guess..

I wouldn't necessarily say I'm relaxed, but I am accepting of differing views when a person can still respect (or respectfully disagree with) mine. I live in the American South, so the vast majority of people here are conservative, religious types. I guess you could say I expect most people where I'm from to be mostly hive-minded, rather than questioning things and forming their own opinions. I myself believe in a God/higher power or some type of divine driving force in the universe, but my views are more on par with the Ancient Aliens take on the subject matter, rather than a literal take on the phenomena and "miracles" mentioned in the bible. It's easier for me to believe in extraterrestrial intervention than messages from angels and demons-- but I'm not by any means dismissing the likely existence of some sort of deity. As for practicing Buddhists and monks that only eat once a day, I can relate to that in the sense that I simply don't have time to eat 3 square meals a day anymore. For them, it's all about self-discipline (which I respect), for me it's about lack of time. Haha.

 

[Jen X]

I read the suicide rates are high in the 12 step groups. Years ago i tried one,. I would leave the meeting to get drunk so didn't work. I don't buy the "you're weak / higher power bs". They just switch their addictions to coffee and cigarettes.
Very cult like, either you're 100% sober or a creatin

 

[FunctionalJnkieGrl]

I read the suicide rates are high in the 12 step groups. Years ago i tried one,. I would leave the meeting to get drunk so didn't work. I don't buy the "you're weak / higher power bs". They just switch their addictions to coffee and cigarettes.
Very cult like, either you're 100% sober or a creatin

Surprisingly, the majority of the ones I work with seem rather empathetic/sympathetic towards those who are in active addiction (save for maybe 1 or 2 who act like their shit no longer stinks--and trust me, based on the current state of our bathrooms, everyone's does). I can only assume that their meetings emphasize the importance of not passing judgement since many others haven't taken action to overcome addiction yet. Anyone who's been an addict knows that a life of sobriety can't be forced upon an addict, and it rarely, if ever, can be done overnight.

 

[dragonix]

Surprisingly, the majority of the ones I work with seem rather empathetic/sympathetic towards those who are in active addiction (save for maybe 1 or 2 who act like their shit no longer stinks--and trust me, based on the current state of our bathrooms, everyone's does). I can only assume that their meetings emphasize the importance of not passing judgement since many others haven't taken action to overcome addiction yet. Anyone who's been an addict knows that a life of sobriety can't be forced upon an addict, and it rarely, if ever, can be done overnight.

I found that the more people forced me to go to rehab the more I used except when my parents brought me to inpatient I mean the system forcing me somehow law or school

 

[Pickledlemons]

There are certain times where drug discourse causes cravings for me, regardless the specifics.

Could be about how fentanyl kills people and destroys familys... but all that is white noise once I'm thinking about the rush. This is a rare occurence these days but point being, I think people generally know if rehab/meetings are going to help or hurt them...

This kind of treatment should be accessable, but not mandatory. There should also be a variety of different avenues, not everybodys brain works the same.