☠ WARNING ☠ *WARNING* Chronic ketamine/dissociative use causes bladder/organ damage

[LucidSDreamr]

Hmm... that does not sound pleasant. I think I could do it if it wouldn't be near impossible or probably very expensive to arrange.

Just to play devil's advocate though (and to find a reason to keep on rationalizing my addiction ), or actually partly out of wanting to just understand better... I DO seem to recover. I do not experience any symptoms of cystitis for more than a few days of the few occasions that mild, and nonetheless of course extremely concerning, bladder awareness has occurred.

Typically, the more frequently I abuse dissociatives, the slower the recovery (longest was I think 5-7 days after a sustained period of ketamine, DCK and a few others for about a week). But most recently after a solid 6 months of abstinence, they faded far sooner, and took longer to develop (first time round I was essentially just binging for days, but taking the odd day off which is usually when I'd expect the bad stuff to start... this time round I had a full week in between sessions). This to me points to SOME recovery, even if arguably not complete recovery... I'm sure if I'd made that 6 months into a year, after which maybe I'd have even got past the grip that dissos seem to have on me, the bladder reaction, if any, would have been even less. What does this mean?

Obviously EVERYTHING I've described still means I am now at risk. But equally, is there recovery of some sort occurring, or is this just an illusion? What's recovering, and what isn't? I know you said you have little interest in digging up science papers for people but I'd really appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction.

As I've said your pattern of symptoms. Is exactly how mine began. Slight pain pressure and increase urged to piss for a day or two after using. It would go away then my bladder would feel totally normal again until the next time I used. This went on for a year.

Just because you stop feeling pain does not mean the damage magically healed and your bladder is as good as new. You simply just stop feeling pain.

IC is far more studied than KC, but at least at this point they look amd are treated the same by doctors and there even may be a biomechanistic similarity in how they damage the bladder (immunological response and cytokine storm type of responses happen and cause damage which some study shows K can catalyze).

There are forms of IC that are classified as purely inflammation in nature (camera inside the bladder shows no damage to inside of bladder). Yet the bladder itself is inflamed causing pain. Other forms of IC show ulcers and glomerulations inside the bladder wall upon viewing.

What might be happening is that after you use...your bladder becomes irritated and inflamed. It hurts then the swelling goes down. Repeated trauma like this combined with literally eating ulcers into your bladder wall layer will result in longer lasting episodes amd permanent dysfunction if use continues. How much can you use till you reach the point of no return? It's different for different ppl.

Where to find studies and scientific papers? I cited many on the first page of this thread. Start there in Google scholar and just keep searching topics.

To give a crude analogy, Trying to fix your K bladder with supplements and tea I would imagine is like trying to fix repeated spine trauma amd overuse with ice and anti inflammatory. Will it help? Maybe yes. Is it enough to override the extent of damage of repeated intense insult that will lead to herniated discs and serious damage? No.

 

[higherconciousness]

That's awful
.may I ask how fent caused kidney and liver failure? Was it result of an overdose and being unconscious or dead for a while or how exactly does fent do that? I didn't think fent was hard on organs.

I am OP and I will tell you that during my worst bladder pain flares the bladder became so swollen that it causes nephritis (I think) where the kidney basically gets backed up with water amd the kidney hurts.

I’m not a 100% about how my liver began to fail but since I was totally passed out and on the ground compressing my leg for 16 hours I got rhabdomyolysis. Once my kidneys started to go all of my organs subsequently began to fail. I almost lost my left leg due to compartment syndrome. The swelling was so severe I almost needed fasciotomy where they filet my leg open to reduce swelling.

I was on constant dialysis and required blood transfusions. I never knew such pain could manifest itself. I was in the hospital for 3 months, bed ridden for 8 months, and it took me a nearly a year to begin to walk again.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I’m not a 100% about how my liver began to fail but since I was totally passed out and on the ground compressing my leg for 16 hours I got rhabdomyolysis. Once my kidneys started to go all of my organs subsequently began to fail. I almost lost my left leg due to compartment syndrome. The swelling was so severe I almost needed fasciotomy where they filet my leg open to reduce swelling.

I was on constant dialysis and required blood transfusions. I never knew such pain could manifest itself. I was in the hospital for 3 months, bed ridden for 8 months, and it took me a nearly a year to begin to walk again.

That's a harrowing story. I hope you are now free from residual chronic pain and mental trauma.

 

[higherconciousness]

That's a harrowing story. I hope you are now free from residual chronic pain and mental trauma.

It was a nightmare. The doctors and my family didn’t tell me that my girlfriend died for month because they thought the mental strain could further worsen my condition and kill me.

I’m glad to say now that I’m in the greatest shape I’ve ever been. I do have some nerve damage in my left leg and arm, but nothing too serious. I still struggle with the fact that I feel somewhat responsible for my girls death. My psychiatrist says I have PTSD, but I’m not sure.

I just got 3.5 g of ketamine. I tend to use it at night and sniff anywhere between 200-300mg. I think I’m starting to build a slight tolerance. Initially 150mg would send me flying. I just started using it a few weeks ago so I’m sure it’ll take longer before any bladder complications arise.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

It was a nightmare. The doctors and my family didn’t tell me that my girlfriend died for month because they thought the mental strain could further worsen my condition and kill me.

I’m glad to say now that I’m in the greatest shape I’ve ever been. I do have some nerve damage in my left leg and arm, but nothing too serious. I still struggle with the fact that I feel somewhat responsible for my girls death. My psychiatrist says I have PTSD, but I’m not sure.

I just got 3.5 g of ketamine. I tend to use it at night and sniff anywhere between 200-300mg. I think I’m starting to build a slight tolerance. Initially 150mg would send me flying. I just started using it a few weeks ago so I’m sure it’ll take longer before any bladder complications arise.

It's takes a while for bladder issues to manifest yes. But check out one of the articles on the first pages of this thread I posted. Ketamine also damages the liver, and you said you have liver damage so that's a risky situation it seems.

Clinical use of Ketamine for chronic pain results in liver injury:

https://rsds.org/wp-content/uploads...liver-injury-following-ketamine-treatment.pdf

Doing a little ketamine for your first time might be fine. But we are drug addicts. And if you're anything like me, dissocistives we're my favorite. While they never caused physical addiction like opioids the mental obsession and outright love and religion I developed with this classs of drugs is what led to an addiction that eventually lead to the damage.

I wasn't even addicted in the sense that I used daily, just that I was so enamored with dissociatives that they became a major staple and drug I always returned to over and over again.

 

[higherconciousness]

It's takes a while for bladder issues to manifest yes. But check out one of the articles on the first pages of this thread I posted. Ketamine also damages the liver, and you said you have liver damage so that's a risky situation it seems.

Clinical use of Ketamine for chronic pain results in liver injury:

https://rsds.org/wp-content/uploads...liver-injury-following-ketamine-treatment.pdf

Doing a little ketamine for your first time might be fine. But we are drug addicts. And if you're anything like me, dissocistives we're my favorite. While they never caused physical addiction like opioids the mental obsession and outright love and religion I developed with this classs of drugs is what led to an addiction that eventually lead to the damage.

I wasn't even addicted in the sense that I used daily, just that I was so enamored with dissociatives that they became a major staple and drug I always returned to over and over again.

The alure of Dissociatives is strange. It’s not like other substances I’ve been addicted to. They’re definitely one of my favorite classes of drugs, but it’s draw can become overwhelmingly seductive. How do you usually use ketamine? I used to IV and IM ket, but I’ve been done with needles for quite some time.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

The alure of Dissociatives is strange. It’s not like other substances I’ve been addicted to. They’re definitely one of my favorite classes of drugs, but it’s draw can become overwhelmingly seductive. How do you usually use ketamine? I used to IV and IM ket, but I’ve been done with needles for quite some time.

My main way of using MXE and K was IV. Often mixed with oxy 30mgs when it was MXE.

I stopped IV use altogether st one point after two friends died of heart and blood infections.

After that I used mxe rectally alot as this was the best ROA for holing in psychedelic experience. When I used mxe as a stimulant in low doses I used intranasal as the effects were quite different nasal vs rectal (less wonky..more just like a stimulant)

With K is was only intranasal after quitting IV.

 

[nepalnt21]

it apparently applies to all, but i think is mostly associated with ketamine (because of its prevalence? or because of the massive dose involved? i dunno, speculating)

anyway, what i am wondering is how the hell should i know if my bladder does weird things? my body does all sorts of weird things (they really need to give us a how-to manual at the hospital), and i only started paying attention to my bladder after i started taking dissociatives and read this stuff.

is there a way to tell for sure? i poke and prod around, and i dunno if my bladder is even there lol (at least i know it's not in pain)

_______________________

also, found this

Fibrosis Reversal Through Inhibition of ‘Don’t Eat Me’ Signal - WorldHealth.net

Researchers reveal that anti-CD47, an antibody that is being tested as an anti-cancer agent, reverses fibrosis in mice.

worldhealth.net

if this is a fibrosis thing, and it indeed has the same mechanism as other fibrosis things, this antibody treatment might be interesting

 

[Bare_head]

You will know when ur urinary tract hurts passing urine. Always drink plenty of fluids after use. Not seen this about fibrosis reversal thanks for the link will check it out

 

[Xorkoth]

i used dxm everyday for a lose to a year at doses between 400-1000 mg a day, I’ve been using it lately at doses of at least 60 mg a day, if I wanted to go to the doctor to get periodic testing some to see if I’m causing organ damage, what tests should I ask for?

DXM isn't an arylcyclohexylamine so it doesn't seem to share this urinary/kidney damage, though I don't know if it causes other kinds of damage. Best thing you can do is go to a doctor to get blood work/a checkup and see if anything is off.

 

[telepathetic]

Just btw, to anyone new to ketamine - this sort if damage is from pretty extreme abuse. I used to abuse >5g a session every couple months, and now use ~1-2g once a month for half a decade with no issue to speak of.

Its like the difference between someone who drinks a six pack vs someone who drinks a liter of vodka, and its effects on the liver.

 

[nepalnt21]

even with alcohol, there could be a drastic amounts difference in two ppl's ideas of "pretty extreme abuse"

 

[Vastness]

Just btw, to anyone new to ketamine - this sort if damage is from pretty extreme abuse. I used to abuse >5g a session every couple months, and now use ~1-2g once a month for half a decade with no issue to speak of.

Its like the difference between someone who drinks a six pack vs someone who drinks a liter of vodka, and its effects on the liver.

IMO this post is not true, helpful, or in the spirit of harm reduction.

Ketamine and arylcyclohexylamine damage is cumulative in a far more dangerous and deceptive way than alcohol abuse.

Serious alcohol abuse is usually visible early. On the other hand, ketamine abuse is not. The comparison is not a good one, the way people use these drugs is completely different. It's quite possible for someone to have an entirely secret ketamine habit using a few grams a month alone and still develop serious problems. You cannot say categorically that this sort of damage is from "pretty extreme abuse" when this entire thread has multiple examples that people's ideas about how much ketamine is too much are all kinds of distorted and wrong.

Additionally - alcohol abuse primarily affects the liver, although obviously other organs are and can be affected. Liver damage, again, has very visible signs before it becomes irreversible. Jaundice is very easy to diagnose. The liver is also an extremely regenerative organ. Simply ceasing alcohol use for a long enough period is usually enough to allow it to recover, and there are other drugs that can be used that mostly do what alcohol does but better, and are not nearly as harmful, even close to being entirely biologically benign, so someone with an actual diagnosable addiction can substitute with another drug, if they so choose, making the path away from liver failure and probably death an easier one for the alcohol addict than for those who develop a serious problem with dissociatives - because the toxic elements of dissociatives seemingly span the entire class of arylcyclohexylamines, and to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that quite replicates the desirable effects of this class, which seem to be quite unique.

Ketamine on the other hand affects the bladder and kidneys - none of these organs are especially regenerative, and bladder symptoms are variable, sporadic, resemble other conditions, may come and go, may in some cases even be reversible although that is up for debate as has been happening throughout this thread. In short, it's easy to convince oneself that their bladder is actually fine - when it's not - and while I concede it's probably easy for an alcoholic to convince themselves that their liver is fine when it's really not, this is less of a problem than it is for the ketamine user, because again, the liver is a highly regenerative organ - the bladder is not.

What should be even more concerning, really, but is mentioned far less, is the toxic effect on the kidneys that ketamine and all drugs from the same class appear to have - the kidneys are very very good at compensating for reduced function, until a threshold is reached when suddenly, they're not. Chronic kidney disease is highly underdiagnosed, and a failing kidney often has no symptoms until it's almost too late. The kidneys do not regenerate, at least not significantly, although function can be improved in the early stages. While everyone is talking about bladder symptoms - I would bet that almost any heavy user of ketamine or ketamine like dissociatives - and by heavy I mean more than a few grams a year, honestly, for most people - already has reduced kidney function but just doesn't know it.

I find your post pretty dismissive, misinformed, and dangerous to new ketamine users. I haven't even got into the subtle addictive pull of dissociatives which is quite different to many other drugs, especially alcohol.

There is, it seems, undeniably some significant variation in how people respond to dissociatives, as far as how susceptible they are to lasting damage, which I've said before and maintain is probably largely genetic, although other lifestyle factors are no doubt involved, as they always are.

You've been lucky. Simple as that. Many others have not been so, and despite all these warnings, will not be so lucky. Please don't be flippant about ketamine's dangers, just be grateful for your own health. And get your eGFR checked, properly, by a company that will take a blood and urine sample on the same day, and test the highest amount of biomarkers you can find. Don't just go for some low-budget option that just tests a couple of biomarkers and gives you a range that caps out at a certain level, like >90, for one it's not accurate, for another, even if it is it doesn't mean you're not at risk, it just means you probably don't have Chronic Kidney Disease yet. For all you know, your eGFR could be dropping several points with every monthly binge. Once you have an accurate figure from a reputable and thorough company, compare it against what would be expected for your age.

You think you're fine, but you might not be as well as you think.

Same goes for everyone who reads this thread and thinks eh, I feel alright, couple grams a month, no big deal. For some... maybe that's true. For many others, it's not.

 

[telepathetic]

IMO this post is not true, helpful, or in the spirit of harm reduction.

Ketamine and arylcyclohexylamine damage is cumulative in a far more dangerous and deceptive way than alcohol abuse.

Serious alcohol abuse is usually visible early. On the other hand, ketamine abuse is not. The comparison is not a good one, the way people use these drugs is completely different. It's quite possible for someone to have an entirely secret ketamine habit using a few grams a month alone and still develop serious problems. You cannot say categorically that this sort of damage is from "pretty extreme abuse" when this entire thread has multiple examples that people's ideas about how much ketamine is too much are all kinds of distorted and wrong.

Additionally - alcohol abuse primarily affects the liver, although obviously other organs are and can be affected. Liver damage, again, has very visible signs before it becomes irreversible. Jaundice is very easy to diagnose. The liver is also an extremely regenerative organ. Simply ceasing alcohol use for a long enough period is usually enough to allow it to recover, and there are other drugs that can be used that mostly do what alcohol does but better, and are not nearly as harmful, even close to being entirely biologically benign, so someone with an actual diagnosable addiction can substitute with another drug, if they so choose, making the path away from liver failure and probably death an easier one for the alcohol addict than for those who develop a serious problem with dissociatives - because the toxic elements of dissociatives seemingly span the entire class of arylcyclohexylamines, and to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that quite replicates the desirable effects of this class, which seem to be quite unique.

Ketamine on the other hand affects the bladder and kidneys - none of these organs are especially regenerative, and bladder symptoms are variable, sporadic, resemble other conditions, may come and go, may in some cases even be reversible although that is up for debate as has been happening throughout this thread. In short, it's easy to convince oneself that their bladder is actually fine - when it's not - and while I concede it's probably easy for an alcoholic to convince themselves that their liver is fine when it's really not, this is less of a problem than it is for the ketamine user, because again, the liver is a highly regenerative organ - the bladder is not.

What should be even more concerning, really, but is mentioned far less, is the toxic effect on the kidneys that ketamine and all drugs from the same class appear to have - the kidneys are very very good at compensating for reduced function, until a threshold is reached when suddenly, they're not. Chronic kidney disease is highly underdiagnosed, and a failing kidney often has no symptoms until it's almost too late. The kidneys do not regenerate, at least not significantly, although function can be improved in the early stages. While everyone is talking about bladder symptoms - I would bet that almost any heavy user of ketamine or ketamine like dissociatives - and by heavy I mean more than a few grams a year, honestly, for most people - already has reduced kidney function but just doesn't know it.

I find your post pretty dismissive, misinformed, and dangerous to new ketamine users. I haven't even got into the subtle addictive pull of dissociatives which is quite different to many other drugs, especially alcohol.

There is, it seems, undeniably some significant variation in how people respond to dissociatives, as far as how susceptible they are to lasting damage, which I've said before and maintain is probably largely genetic, although other lifestyle factors are no doubt involved, as they always are.

You've been lucky. Simple as that. Many others have not been so, and despite all these warnings, will not be so lucky. Please don't be flippant about ketamine's dangers, just be grateful for your own health. And get your eGFR checked, properly, by a company that will take a blood and urine sample on the same day, and test the highest amount of biomarkers you can find. Don't just go for some low-budget option that just tests a couple of biomarkers and gives you a range that caps out at a certain level, like >90, for one it's not accurate, for another, even if it is it doesn't mean you're not at risk, it just means you probably don't have Chronic Kidney Disease yet. For all you know, your eGFR could be dropping several points with every monthly binge. Once you have an accurate figure from a reputable and thorough company, compare it against what would be expected for your age.

You think you're fine, but you might not be as well as you think.

Same goes for everyone who reads this thread and thinks eh, I feel alright, couple grams a month, no big deal. For some... maybe that's true. For many others, it's not.

I have had extensive blood work done and my kidneys are functioning fine with my level of use remaining consistent for more than a decade.

Sorry you have had to suffer though

I will update this thread if it ever happens to me.

I will also talk to a doctor and be open about why and have the specific test you mentioned done, though I do think it was likely checked during my screening for this clinical trial or in the regular CBCs I get.

IMO/IME it is really only daily users who encounter this issue, no?

 

[Vastness]

IMO/IME it is really only daily users who encounter this issue, no?

NO, it really isn't!

Even occasional users can develop issues. The reasons for this variation are not well understood or really studied, as again, has been discussed at great length in this thread, sorry, I don't mean to come across as rude but it seems like you just haven't read any of it at all and are just chiming in with the exact misconception that this whole thread is trying to dispel.

I am glad to hear you're in good health regardless, and thank you for your condolences, I have suffered but not nearly as much as some others who've posted here have, who I'm sure find your posts which, frankly, come across as fairly ignorant and completely tone-deaf, even more frustrating than I do.

I have yet to be able to measure anything though, my kidney function tests specifically have also come back fine, if just slightly below average for my age - but, not outside the realm of normal human variation. But actually I am going to book another test now and will report back because I might have fucked myself finally this time. Hopefully it will resolve with abstinence but I was not and never have been a daily user. It's not smart to obviously keep doing harmful dissociatives until finally something measurable comes up of course, I will share more detail after the fact.

For the record I do actually think it is possible to maintain an occasional dissociative habit with the correct precautions taken, I'm not saying it's impossible and no one should ever do them, but the dangers are severely understated and people need to be made aware of that and not lulled into a false sense of security by this tired old myth that it's only the most extreme addicts who ever develop problems. Again, you've been lucky, that's it. Be grateful and please don't spread harmful myths about dissociative safety.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

DXM isn't an arylcyclohexylamine so it doesn't seem to share this urinary/kidney damage, though I don't know if it causes other kinds of damage. Best thing you can do is go to a doctor to get blood work/a checkup and see if anything is off.

I recall a paper I read years ago positing the mechanism is nmda antagonism related. This pharmacological action caused an immune cascsde and cytokine release that attacked the bladder causing damage.

So it's not the drug per se causing damage. I found the paper after another user in the neuroscience subforum (I believe he was a physician or scientist) discussed this mechanism then I went digging around on Google scholar and found the paper.

If this is infact true then dxm would also cause problems

 

[polarthedog]

I recall a paper I read years ago positing the mechanism is nmda antagonism related. This pharmacological action caused an immune cascsde and cytokine release that attacked the bladder causing damage.

So it's not the drug per se causing damage. I found the paper after another user in the neuroscience subforum (I believe he was a physician or scientist) discussed this mechanism then I went digging around on Google scholar and found the paper.

If this is infact true then dxm would also cause problems

Thanks for looking it up, I’ll be careful then

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Just btw, to anyone new to ketamine - this sort if damage is from pretty extreme abuse. I used to abuse >5g a session every couple months, and now use ~1-2g once a month for half a decade with no issue to speak of.

Its like the difference between someone who drinks a six pack vs someone who drinks a liter of vodka, and its effects on the liver.

identical bladder damage (interstitial cystitis) happens to people that have never touched any drug in their lives.

Genetic predisposition may allow some to withstand more damage. I know ppl that went way harder than I did and didn't get bladder damage and my use was not ultra heavy. Daily binge runs at times but with long breaks. Not chronic daily use.

One Japanese paper documents bladder damage at 0.5 g per day after only 6 months of use in one test subject. I think it may be one of the papers I linked in the OP.

 

[telepathetic]

Almost identical bladder damage (interstitial cystitis) happens to people that have never touched any drug in their lives.

Genetic predisposition may allow some to withstand more damage. I know ppl that went way harder than I did and didn't get bladder damage and my use was not ultra heavy. Daily binge runs at times but with long breaks. Not chronic daily use.

One Japanese paper documents bladder damage at 0.5 g per day after only 6 months of use in one test subject. I think it may be one of the papers I linked in the OP.

yeah daily use is obviously a terrible idea. but once a month? i doubt it

 

[LucidSDreamr]

yeah daily use is obviously a terrible idea. but once a month? i doubt it

As I said ppl that have never used any drug in their lives develop bladder cystitis.

Ppl that try mdma once can get long term comedown.

Chances are you'll be fine at 1x per month but dissocistives are quite addictive (at least for me) so good luck with that.

To me it would be like having a heroin bag I only used once a month. Simply not possible. Dissociatives were actually more psychologically addictive to me than any drug I've done. It was a religion in terms of what I believed they were doing for me (and actually were making me superman despite causing the damage).

Though once the bag ran out it was easier to not get more since there is no withdrawal at the level I used. I knew a guy that used so much he would get strange withdrawals though..but nothing as severe as opioid WD.