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Opinion To Be or Not To Be (An Abortion Thread)

Don't forget that if you don't give the opportunity to abort, people will do it themselves or go to underground practicioners because they are so desperate or in really shitty situations.
I say, just keep it legal, and try to make the already very traumatic event as humane as possible.
 
TripSitterNZ said:
if life is going to kill a women during birth as happens in the natural world its simply natural selection and a process of nature to bring new life to the planet while old life creates new life and feeds said new life. Imo if the baby will survive and said women has no other kids i reckon the kid takes priority yet if said women has kids then the women takes priority
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You are like half a step away from being a eugenics proponent.
 
Buzz Lightbeer said:
Don't forget that if you don't give the opportunity to abort, people will do it themselves or go to underground practicioners because they are so desperate or in really shitty situations.
I say, just keep it legal, and try to make the already very traumatic event as humane as possible.
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While I think the degree to which women would resort to black market abortion is exaggerated, yes this is another reason I'm not prepared to fight to ban abortion, in spite of my beliefs.
 
Zephyn said:
This is common even in monkeys. If we are to.follow the order of nature, @TripSitterNZ then even post birth abortions should be legal. (Even i disagree with that)

Did I just win the argument?
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True. Of course the difference is that, as thinking creatures with free will, we have the ability to act in ways that other animals do not. However when it comes to abortion, I don't buy the "it's murder" argument, nor do I buy the "what if you killed a future Einstein" sort of argument, either. It's not murder, to me, if the thing you're killing has no consciousness yet. I'd much rather have an abortion (assuming I could) than kill an animal. Aborting a fetus doesn't create any suffering except for the parent(s) who made the difficult decision. A fetus, or even moreso, an embryo, is not a person. It's a potential person, yes, but not a person. In the first trimester, a human embryo is little different from any other embryo from any species.

Regarding the "killing a future important person" style argument that I've heard a lot, well, by that same token you could say that contraception is bad, or masturbation is bad, or getting a vasectomy is bad. You should have had sex that one time, because it would have resulted in a particular sperm fertilizing the egg that would have resulted in a future benevolent world leader. It's pointless what-ifs that really are just muddying the waters for real debate (IMO).

At this point in my life, I would not desire my girlfriend to get an abortion if she got pregnant. But that's because it might be my only chance to be a parent, and furthermore, I am in a place in life where I would be able to raise a child and be a good parent. But the same can't be said for everyone. And the same couldn't be said of me, at earlier points in my life.

There are so many humans, too many. And there are already far too many unwanted children for them to all be adopted. Anyone who doesn't feel like they could raise a child effectively, and decides to get an abortion, is being responsible, IMO. There are already SO many kids born who no one wants.
 
pulverstaden said:
Anytime ANY women is pro-life, anti-choice, I'm baffled!

Being against abortion and being a feminist creates a dissonance in my head.
I'm out. Y'all people are kray-kray.

Look. You broke my head.
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Sorry I broke your head, I have duct tape though.

Try to understand, even if you don't agree, try and see that I honestly believe life begins at conception, at least for the purposes of this discussion.

Because of that, I feel morally compelled to defend that life, in the same way as the hypothetical 4 year old who's mother wants to kill it.

I don't want to force women to keep pregnancies they don't want. I don't want to force anyone to have to do something with their body they don't want to do.

But to be pro choice would require that I believed that a fetus had no right to life... and I just don't.

Given that all in all I tend to lean to the left politically, in many ways things would be a lot simpler if I were simply pro choice and thus consistent with the left wing label that many of my other beliefs align with.

I've had lot of people whom I otherwise shared a lot of political opinions with say a lot of very not nice things to me because I refused to pretend that I think abortion is ok.
 
JessFR said:
While I think the degree to which women would resort to black market abortion is exaggerated, yes this is another reason I'm not prepared to fight to ban abortion, in spite of my beliefs.
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There are groups like WomenOnWeb who will ship abortion pills to countries it is outlawed.

However, in an emergency, unripe papaya latex applied directly to the cervix and massive doses of parsley tea and vitamin C works. Not super safe though.
 
JessFR said:
Sorry I broke your head, I have duct tape though.

Try to understand, even if you don't agree, try and see that I honestly believe life begins at conception, at least for the purposes of this discussion.

Because of that, I feel morally compelled to defend that life, in the same way as the hypothetical 4 year old who's mother wants to kill it.

I don't want to force women to keep pregnancies they don't want. I don't want to force anyone to have to do something with their body they don't want to do.

But to be pro choice would require that I believed that a fetus had no right to life... and I just don't.

Given that all in all I tend to lean to the left politically, in many ways things would be a lot simpler if I were simply pro choice and thus consistent with the left wing label that many of my other beliefs align with.
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If the argument you're really trying to make is that pro-choice people are "ok with murder", than I'll just accept it. Yes, if a mother chooses to "murder" a two month old clump of cells she should have a safe and legal place to commit said "murder". I'm totally cool with "murder" I guess.

It's too bad she'll have to muscle her way through fundamentalist psychopaths threatening her as she enters the clinic, but I guess that's another pitfall of free speech.
 
JessFR said:
Try to understand, even if you don't agree, try and see that I honestly believe life begins at conception, at least for the purposes of this discussion.

Because of that, I feel morally compelled to defend that life, in the same way as the hypothetical 4 year old who's mother wants to kill it.
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I agree that an embryo or fetus is alive, yes. But so is mold, so is a parasite infecting your body, so is a mosquito that you swat when it's drinking your blood. It might sound callous of me to compare an embryo to a mosquito, or mold, but to me, an unborn bundle of cells with no consciousness is more comparable to those things than it is to a 4 year old. A 4 year old and a fetus are WORLDS apart.
 
deficiT said:
If the argument you're really trying to make is that pro-choice people are "ok with murder", than I'll just accept it. Yes, if a mother chooses to "murder" a two month old clump of cells she should have a safe and legal place to commit said "murder". I'm totally cool with "murder" I guess.

It's too bad she'll have to muscle her way through fundamentalist psychopaths threatening her as she enters the clinic, but I guess that's another pitfall of free speech.
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When have I ever suggested that I think pro choice people are OK with murder?

I've said it implied the reverse of this several times.

I know pro choicers believe what their position and aren't intentionally destroying a life.
 
Xorkoth said:
I agree that an embryo or fetus is alive, yes. But so is mold, so is a parasite infecting your body, so is a mosquito that you swat when it's drinking your blood. It might sound callous of me to compare an embryo to a mosquito, or mold, but to me, an unborn bundle of cells with no consciousness is more comparable to those things than it is to a 4 year old. A 4 year old and a fetus are WORLDS apart.
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This is just being pedantic. I've said several times that we are talking about life deserving of continuity of existence. But one time I don't play lawyer with what I say and sure enough someone jumps on it. :p
 
JessFR said:
When have I ever suggested that I think pro choice people are OK with murder?

I've said it implied the reverse of this several times.

I know pro choicers believe what their position and aren't intentionally destroying a life.
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The crux of your argument is that you believe life begins at conception, and that you should defend that life.

That kind of implies that the people who wish to end that life are doing something bad or committing some atrocity, instead of a private medical procedure.
 
JessFR said:
Sorry I broke your head, I have duct tape though.

Try to understand, even if you don't agree, try and see that I honestly believe life begins at conception, at least for the purposes of this discussion.

Because of that, I feel morally compelled to defend that life, in the same way as the hypothetical 4 year old who's mother wants to kill it.

I don't want to force women to keep pregnancies they don't want. I don't want to force anyone to have to do something with their body they don't want to do.

But to be pro choice would require that I believed that a fetus had no right to life... and I just don't.

Given that all in all I tend to lean to the left politically, in many ways things would be a lot simpler if I were simply pro choice and thus consistent with the left wing label that many of my other beliefs align with.
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Perfect - I have some damp drywall to help cover the cracks :D
I do understand, and sorry if I come off as a rabied-diseased chupacabra.
That's why I'm opting out. You're never gonna convince me and I'm never gonna convince you.
It's just gonna be a semantic pissing contest and I'm as mature as the fetuses you want to save when discussing these matters.
Didin't mean to get on your ass about being a feminist AND pro-choice. As a dude I should shut the fuck up.

I don't agree, but I respect your opinion. I just can't respect mens opinions in this question - yes, very paradoxically.

God do I long for that vasectomy - I never thought I'd look forward to having someone snip shit in my scrotum.

Soldier on!
 
deficiT said:
The life of a fully grown human woman will always be more important than the fetus growing inside of her, sorry.
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I am right because I am right.

There's no debate or intelligent discussion to be had so long as this is what the "arguments" are.

Most of this thread rather than try and argue why I believe a fetus is a life deserving of continued existence (better not omit saying that again), I've been trying to just get pro choicers to comprehend the pro life position so they could at least make argument that aren't immediately dismissed simply because they are essentially "the fetus doesn't have because it doesn't have rights".

Saddly even in that I've not been very successful. This is why a lot of the time I ignore abortion debates entirely.
 
I don't think I'm being pedantic. I think we can probably both agree that a mosquito is alive, and that it deserves continuity of existence. But there are times when that desire is outweighed by greater needs... if the mosquito is sucking your blood, you smash it. I support killing mosquitos individually when there is reason to, but I don't support wantonly seeking out and destroying mosquitos for the hell of it. I feel roughly the same about embryos.
 
JessFR said:
I am right because I am right.

There's no debate or intelligent discussion to be had so long as this is what the "arguments" are.

Most of this thread rather than try and argue why I believe a fetus is a life deserving of continued existence (better not omit saying that again), I've been trying to just get pro choicers to comprehend the pro life position so they could at least make argument that aren't immediately dismissed simply because they are essentially "the fetus doesn't have because it doesn't have rights".

Saddly even in that I've not been very successful. This is why a lot of the time I ignore abortion debates entirely.
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I respect your right to see it the way that you do, I am just trying to express why I disagree with the way you see it.
 
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