What to do if close family member won't get the Vaccination?

[RomanJ]

Vaccines have been developed for a long time, I just hope that the Covid19 vaccine is just an addition to the ongoing process, like a side step from another similar vaccine to the flu maybe.

 

[Jackal]

Vaccines have been developed for a long time, I just hope that the Covid19 vaccine is just an addition to the ongoing process, like a side step from another similar vaccine to the flu maybe.

Well, Roman, the Russian Sputnik Vaccine is just that; what the clever Ruskis did was modify one protein on a decades old cold and flu jab and it's now, just this week, been hailed as the most effective at 92% efficiency.

Which is curious.

Because all the "western" newspapers and governments were up in arms saying it would be dangerous, ineffective etc and then basically sold the public on the mrna vaccines while printing fake news about the Russian vaccine being less than 50% effective.

And this week an about face. A total 180.

We, Joe public, have been scammed of a year and counting. Covid is real. But the "west's" reaction is criminal and aimed more at mass control than virus control

 

[Pillhead111]

Let people live their lives how they choose. Don’t pressure someone into something just because YOU think it’s the right thing to do.

 

[JessFR]

Let people live their lives how they choose. Don’t pressure someone into something just because YOU think it’s the right thing to do.

Mmmm no.

No I think it is the right thing to do and it is something for the greater good of everyone. Soooo I think I will pressure them.

I mean people hate me regardless, might as well.

 

[Forever Changes]

I live in a country where we avoided the pandemic. Zero deaths by covid.

We did this by not testing anybody.

No spikes in deaths resulted and all the annoying, old, fat, unhealthy buzzards are still alive and well.

Covid has been here, but no panic and no tests equals a normal year

I am a healthy guy in my mid 30's who had one bout of severe anaphylaxis as a younger guy.

I am not taking a flu shot or a Corona jab.

Oh, I am pro vaccination on the whole

What country do you live in?

and what caused your anaphylaxis? I'm allergic to peanuts

 

[Jackal]

What country do you live in?

and what caused your anaphylaxis? I'm allergic to peanuts

Small south east Asian country

Really not sure what caused it. Could have been a brand of soluble aspirin or a bug I accidentally swallowed or from pollen. I had been helping someone harvest hay all day. Turned into the elephant man and my windpipe began to swell closed.

Was like 4 days in hospital after. Strange one

 

[novaveritas]

We are all better off by taking a more collectivist attitude on issues like this, yes. I for one would feel guilty/ashamed knowing I was needlessly contributing to putting other people at risk.

Then you have been successfully manipulated. There is no overriding collectivist justification here, despite what you say. It is an individual choice.
Your position is illogical because your own behavior shows you are not about helping the collective. What you preach is just virtuous words and not actions. For example you say you are a junkie, I make no judgement on that, each to their own, that but you cannot be a junkie then claim you are responsibly shouldering your share of the collective burden, because if you were, you would get clean for the collective good, because your DoC puts people needlessly at risk and needlessly costs the collective, you would also eat your vegetables, not smoke etc etc.

When collectivists don't get their way by arguament they try to impose their view usiing state force whilst shrieking about how it is for everyones' own good, they then wonder why rational people have no respect for them or their views.

 

[novaveritas]

Small south east Asian country

Really not sure what caused it. Could have been a brand of soluble aspirin or a bug I accidentally swallowed or from pollen. I had been helping someone harvest hay all day. Turned into the elephant man and my windpipe began to swell closed.

Was like 4 days in hospital after. Strange one

North Korea?

 

[novaveritas]

The death rate is low but we’re starting to see long term damage in those that even had mild symptoms. Kidney issues being one of them.

I’ll be honest, when it first hit I was thinking it was nothing more than a flu and the media have hyped it up and terrified people. I still agree with the latter but it’s not just some flu. I believe it has the ability to mutate into something more deadly and that really is a worry especially when the strains we are seeing are causing long term damage already.

I get the flu vaccine every year, I trust vaccines. I’ve seen the work that goes into making them. I’ve seen the studies. I myself carry out studies all the time in regards to lots of different medications, they are beyond thorough.

I don’t believe in forced vaccination at all. I do think though that if you work with vulnerable people you do need to be vaccinated. If you choose not to be then I don’t think you should be in that field.

Any rational objective analysis shows it is exceptionally unlikely that you gained any benefit whatsoever from the flu vaccines you diligently get every year. You believe they helped you and that is fine, but there is not strong evidence based scientific justification for that belief.

I see nothing with covid sequelae that is exceptional. I see very little in SARS-CoV-2 that is exceptional and nothing justifying the current hysterical response. You are right it is not Flu, pandemic flu usually hits the wider population harder. Remember researchers are looking very hard, with funding for tools that are not generally deployed and if you deployed the same tools examining people who have had flu or a multitude of viruses you would probably see the similar things, if you look for something you will find it. The tools of psychological manipulation have been deployed heavily and rather successfully judging by the posts here.

The idea that pharma studies are beyond thorough, is amusing to me, but again that is your personal belief and I have no problem with that.

In the past I have done due diligence for investors in the biotech and pharma field. There is an immense amount of crap out there, so this means getting an independent team asking the awkward questions, getting full disclosure and looking properly at the study results and the assumptions that underpin them. There are errors, mistakes, lies, false assumptions and fakery all over the biopharma complex. The game for investors is to work out whether errors, false assumptions and fakery make a material difference or worse whether someone else (like a regulator or lawyers acting for patients) will see the problems before the investors can get in and cash out.
Researchers are usually too close to their work to objectively assess. it. This is made hugely worse by organizations burying negative data and otherwise gaming the results.

There are two tribes of scientists, those that take on-board external input and and address the issues raised to seek objective truth and those that don't, who roll along with dogma and consensus because it beats thinking for themselves. The first tribe is getting much more rare but their science is the one to invest in. Perhaps get back to me in a decade or two and tell me what you believe then?

That is the reason I go for a laissez faire approach and leave it to people to make their own choices, because at the end of the day, they personally, have to face the consequences of their choices.

 

[Jackal]

North Korea?

That's not South East Asia!

 

[MsDiz]

Any rational objective analysis shows it is exceptionally unlikely that you gained any benefit whatsoever from the flu vaccines you diligently get every year. You believe they helped you and that is fine, but there is not strong evidence based scientific justification for that belief.

I see nothing with covid sequelae that is exceptional. I see very little in SARS-CoV-2 that is exceptional and nothing justifying the current hysterical response. You are right it is not Flu, pandemic flu usually hits the wider population harder. Remember researchers are looking very hard, with funding for tools that are not generally deployed and if you deployed the same tools examining people who have had flu or a multitude of viruses you would probably see the similar things, if you look for something you will find it. The tools of psychological manipulation have been deployed heavily and rather successfully judging by the posts here.

The idea that pharma studies are beyond thorough, is amusing to me, but again that is your personal belief and I have no problem with that.

In the past I have done due diligence for investors in the biotech and pharma field. There is an immense amount of crap out there, so this means getting an independent team asking the awkward questions, getting full disclosure and looking properly at the study results and the assumptions that underpin them. There are errors, mistakes, lies, false assumptions and fakery all over the biopharma complex. The game for investors is to work out whether errors, false assumptions and fakery make a material difference or worse whether someone else (like a regulator or lawyers acting for patients) will see the problems before the investors can get in and cash out.
Researchers are usually too close to their work to objectively assess. it. This is made hugely worse by organizations burying negative data and otherwise gaming the results.

There are two tribes of scientists, those that take on-board external input and and address the issues raised to seek objective truth and those that don't, who roll along with dogma and consensus because it beats thinking for themselves. The first tribe is getting much more rare but their science is the one to invest in. Perhaps get back to me in a decade or two and tell me what you believe then?

That is the reason I go for a laissez faire approach and leave it to people to make their own choices, because at the end of the day, they personally, have to face the consequences of their choices.

I’m not even going to bother writing an essay.

I get the flu vaccine because I work with very vulnerable people and if it means that there’s only a 45% chance it protects me from getting the flu and passing it on then that’s more than 0. I have never had the flu in my life, not once.

I don’t know what work you do, but as a researcher I am thorough in my work as are my colleagues at the lab. We rerun studies when excess side effects are reported for a particular med. We look at the formulations and batch test. We are highly critical of medication because we need to be. So I’m no big pharma advert.

I’ve never once said that I believe in mandatory vaccination. I said if someone is working with vulnerable people then they need to do their bit and get the vaccine.

 

[JessFR]

Then you have been successfully manipulated. There is no overriding collectivist justification here, despite what you say. It is an individual choice.
Your position is illogical because your own behavior shows you are not about helping the collective. What you preach is just virtuous words and not actions. For example you say you are a junkie, I make no judgement on that, each to their own, that but you cannot be a junkie then claim you are responsibly shouldering your share of the collective burden, because if you were, you would get clean for the collective good, because your DoC puts people needlessly at risk and needlessly costs the collective, you would also eat your vegetables, not smoke etc etc.

When collectivists don't get their way by arguament they try to impose their view usiing state force whilst shrieking about how it is for everyones' own good, they then wonder why rational people have no respect for them or their views.

I don't really see how that follows. But even it did, I quit smoking, I quit heroin. All I'm on is methadone and I pay for it. I'm not on welfare. So I don't see how I'm harming the collective at all.

Refusing to get the vaccine however, that absolutely harms the collective.

It's all an ad hom anyway though. Even if you were right, it doesn't follow that if I fail to love up to my standards that those standards aren't correct.

It is also problematic because having addictions aren't remotely the same thing as refusing to get a vaccine simply cause you don't give a fuck about other people. The latter is far more morally questionable.

 

[Sky God]

Respect their choices, their body after all. Would you want grandma telling you to not get an abortion? Probably not because it's your body your choice right

 

[Jabberwocky]

Your position is illogical because your own behavior shows you are not about helping the collective. What you preach is just virtuous words and not actions. For example you say you are a junkie, I make no judgement on that, each to their own, that but you cannot be a junkie then claim you are responsibly shouldering your share of the collective burden, because if you were, you would get clean for the collective good, because your DoC puts people needlessly at risk and needlessly costs the collective, you would also eat your vegetables, not smoke etc etc.

This is absolute rubbish. you can care about other people without being perfect yourself. and your argument is predicated on being able to choose to be an addict, when you really can't as your neurological pathways have been hijacked by a drug.

taking an individualised perspective of addiction completely misrepresents the issue. my addiction, which was pretty typical, had causes boiling down to the collective failure of medical professionals to believe women could get autism, resulting in growing up with an undiagnosed condition that my mother punished me severely for. then society's collective failure to teach men not to rape women. the police's collective failure to give a shit about violence against women. had i not got addicted to drugs i would have fucked up a different way that might be more socially acceptable but would equally have drained society- actually my anorexia treatment cost taxpayers way more than my addiction.

Respect their choices, their body after all. Would you want grandma telling you to not get an abortion? Probably not because it's your body your choice right

not really. if they don't get the vaccine they don't get to just choose not to get infected with covid. you don't get to choose not to have your family unable to visit while you die in hospital. you don't get to choose if you're put on a ventilator over someone who would have been vaccinated but didn't get the chance yet, and then dies.

tbh given the data about the vaccine reducing transmission aren't available yet, i'd be fine with people refusing the vaccine as long as they waive their right to medical attention should they get sick. if it is shown that these vaccines reduce transmission, then its not really your body i care about, its the unwitting people you might infect and thus kill.

 

[Sky God]

This is absolute rubbish. you can care about other people without being perfect yourself. and your argument is predicated on being able to choose to be an addict, when you really can't as your neurological pathways have been hijacked by a drug.

taking an individualised perspective of addiction completely misrepresents the issue. my addiction, which was pretty typical, had causes boiling down to the collective failure of medical professionals to believe women could get autism, resulting in growing up with an undiagnosed condition that my mother punished me severely for. then society's collective failure to teach men not to rape women. the police's collective failure to give a shit about violence against women. had i not got addicted to drugs i would have fucked up a different way that might be more socially acceptable but would equally have drained society- actually my anorexia treatment cost taxpayers way more than my addiction.


not really. if they don't get the vaccine they don't get to just choose not to get infected with covid. you don't get to choose not to have your family unable to visit while you die in hospital. you don't get to choose if you're put on a ventilator over someone who would have been vaccinated but didn't get the chance yet, and then dies.

tbh given the data about the vaccine reducing transmission aren't available yet, i'd be fine with people refusing the vaccine as long as they waive their right to medical attention should they get sick. if it is shown that these vaccines reduce transmission, then its not really your body i care about, its the unwitting people you might infect and thus kill.

I will never support forced vaccines. If you have yours why do i need mine, you are protected right? People that get anaphylactic type reactions are not advised to get one. I pay insurance, they have to treat me. End of the day we have freedom and my choice to put in my body what i want.

Hitler should have used a flu variant, people give up their basic rights so easily

 

[Jabberwocky]

If you have yours why do i need mine, you are protected right? People that get anaphylactic type reactions are not advised to get one.

there it is. can you put it together? people who get anaphylactic reactions to certain ingredients cannot get those vaccines, so if you don't have yours, you could infect them- what about their right to life?

they do not have to treat you, whether you pay or not. but surely if you don't take doctors advice regarding vaccines, then what do they know? why would you go to them for medical help when you clearly know better, so don't follow their suggestions? why don't you exercise your right to ignore them when you're perilously ill?

with rights come responsibilities.

 

[Sky God]

there it is. can you put it together? people who get anaphylactic reactions to certain ingredients cannot get those vaccines, so if you don't have yours, you could infect them- what about their right to life?

they do not have to treat you, whether you pay or not. but surely if you don't take doctors advice regarding vaccines, then what do they know? why would you go to them for medical help when you clearly know better, so don't follow their suggestions? why don't you exercise your right to ignore them when you're perilously ill?

with rights come responsibilities.

You can argue all you want. I am not getting the rushed vaccine but good luck. I get anaphylactic shock so i can't. I wouldn't anyhow. I don't have a grandma to kill or hang with people who are immune compromised . But most of all it's my choice. I don't recall my country turning communist or fascist and i don't tell others what to do.

would you tell a homeless junkie to get an abortion? It's for the collective good after all. That nicu spot could be used on a baby not dying from drug withdrawal afterall.

 

[Jabberwocky]

You can argue all you want. I am not getting the rushed vaccine but good luck. I get anaphylactic shock so i can't. I wouldn't anyhow. I don't have a grandma to kill or hang with people who are immune compromised . But most of all it's my choice. I don't recall my country turning communist or fascist and i don't tell others what to do.

would you tell a homeless junkie to get an abortion? It's for the collective good after all. That nicu spot could be used on a baby not dying from drug withdrawal afterall.

you're posting in EADD- i'm strongly guessing you're american. european culture is far less individualist (i've lived in the UK, the US and continental europe so i've seen it first hand), we have a notion of the collective good over here that you yanks could benefit from learning about.

i would fucking help a homeless junkie before ever telling them what to do. honestly your attitude is disgusting. and to suggest you would let a child who had just been born die due to their parents actions speaks volumes.

 

[Sky God]

you're posting in EADD- i'm strongly guessing you're american. european culture is far less individualist (i've lived in the UK, the US and continental europe so i've seen it first hand), we have a notion of the collective good over here that you yanks could benefit from learning about.

i would fucking help a homeless junkie before ever telling them what to do. honestly your attitude is disgusting. and to suggest you would let a child who had just been born die due to their parents actions speaks volumes.

A baby dying. Not me letting it die and fuck off with your insults. You Europeans are no better specifically if you insult people for not agreeing with you.

 

[cduggles]

i'd be fine with people refusing the vaccine as long as they waive their right to medical attention should they get sick.

I like this idea.