What to do if close family member won't get the Vaccination?

[MsDiz]

You may be right, only time will tell. Covid risk personally is a rounding error in absolute terms therefore so the maximum vaccine benefit is also a rounding error, I doubt it is any different for you. but you can relax knowing your rounding error is 2/3rds smaller.

The death rate is low but we’re starting to see long term damage in those that even had mild symptoms. Kidney issues being one of them.

I’ll be honest, when it first hit I was thinking it was nothing more than a flu and the media have hyped it up and terrified people. I still agree with the latter but it’s not just some flu. I believe it has the ability to mutate into something more deadly and that really is a worry especially when the strains we are seeing are causing long term damage already.

I get the flu vaccine every year, I trust vaccines. I’ve seen the work that goes into making them. I’ve seen the studies. I myself carry out studies all the time in regards to lots of different medications, they are beyond thorough.

I don’t believe in forced vaccination at all. I do think though that if you work with vulnerable people you do need to be vaccinated. If you choose not to be then I don’t think you should be in that field.

 

[MsDiz]

Weren't those eradicated before I was born? I'm not sure how that applies; the flu hasn't been eradicated yet I've never gotten it nor the flu vaccine

I wish there'd have been a bronchitis vaccine when I almost died from it as a kid

I was more replying to the fact that you said we were vaccinated against diseases. They were virus’.

Also there is a vaccine for bronchiolitis, it’s not on the schedule but you can pay for it. It’s expensive but after seeing how badly children are affected it’s worth it.

 

[Gormur]

I wonder why I got bronchitis and I don't know anybody else who got it. It was bad too. I couldn't sleep on my back or I couldn't breathe for like a month waiting to see the doctor again. Common sources say over 90% of cases are due to viruses bringing it out in people, but what about in children? I was frustrated and had to tell the doctors what was wrong when they finally made me cough in a tissue to test it for blood, which was present. That experience made me skeptical of listening to medical advice. Besides hating needles

Edit: @MsDiz I've never heard of it. Maybe because I was born in 83'

 

[Jabberwocky]

all will be offerred it eventually I presume. In my 30s apparently I won't be eligible till the autumn according to the wonderful Matt Hancock

fuck!!! i fucking want a foreign holiday this year so fucking bad.

What seems to be apparent is that the long term consequences of both Covid AND the vaccine are unknowns, so I'm not picking sides here. We each have to make the decision

completely.

The rabid anti-vaxers seem to be influenced by the whole 'vaccines give you autism theory' which afaik has been debunked

it was never even a theory in the first place. i'm autistic and i prefer this than being dead of a preventable disease.

As Covid seems to be mutating into numerous different strains I'm pretty certain it's here to stay forever in some form, like influenza, no matter how many people get immunity.

pretty much. given that its genome is roughly 30kb and you expect one mutation per 30kb in RNA viruses, every single copy is a mutant (the concept of species breaks down for viruses). i do have hope though- you expect natural selection to favour less deadly mutations, unfortunately its taking too fucking long.

if anything good comes from this, it will be a massive leap forward in terms of our understanding of viruses.

 

[mp44god]

People always want long term studies. It's the standard bullshit answer.

If we have long term studies to confirm the near certainty that there aren't long term risks to the vaccine, it's gonna kill waay more people than if people had just got the vaccine.

It's stupid. We don't and shouldn't insist on long term studies for fucking everything. It'll kill way more people doing that.

Unless you have some existing condition that means you can't get the vaccine, just go get it. Be part of the solution here.

Worry about what the virus will do to you cause that's a much greater risk.

How about this... you get the vaccine, and let others decide for themself instead of brow beating people. I would interested to see your stats about young people with no comorbidities dying from covid, while I'm sure that's happened it seems to be an anomaly. Most deaths in young people in the US I believe 75% had comorbidities such as obesity, respiratory issues, conpromised immune function etc. According to the study I read.

 

[MsDiz]

I wonder why I got bronchitis and I don't know anybody else who got it. It was bad too. I couldn't sleep on my back or I couldn't breathe for like a month waiting to see the doctor again. Common sources say over 90% of cases are due to viruses bringing it out in people, but what about in children? I was frustrated and had to tell the doctors what was wrong when they finally made me cough in a tissue to test it for blood, which was present. That experience made me skeptical of listening to medical advice. Besides hating needles

Edit: @MsDiz I've never heard of it. Maybe because I was born in 83'

Bronchitis is also caused by a virus. You likely came into contact with someone who had the cold or flu and it just affected you much worse.

I was born in ‘84! 80s babies!

 

[Gormur]

Ha. Well I'm not getting a virus vaccination unless I have to to fly on an airplane. It seems we don't know about that yet

 

[JessFR]

How about this... you get the vaccine, and let others decide for themself instead of brow beating people. I would interested to see your stats about young people with no comorbidities dying from covid, while I'm sure that's happened it seems to be an anomaly. Most deaths in young people in the US I believe 75% had comorbidities such as obesity, respiratory issues, conpromised immune function etc. According to the study I read.

I have a better plan.
I get the vaccine. And I brow beat whoever I feel like.

Cause you know what? Being young and fat, or having a preexisting condition, does not mean you should expect to die of fucking covid cause other people care only for themselves. Get the fucking
vaccine, please.

Other people's lives than yours have value. This everybody for themselves shit is just gonna leave everyone screwed long term.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

I'd be interested to know how many (if any) people that have actually had Covid-19 would still say they're not getting vaccinated.

I've had it. It didn't kill me. I don't want it again as it may kill me next time

 

[Gormur]

Is it a strain of the flu? I've never had the flu so I'm not concerned, just curious

 

[cduggles]

Is it a strain of the flu? I've never had the flu so I'm not concerned, just curious

No. It’s a coronavirus, and the flu is caused by influenza virus.

 

[Gormur]

But does coronavirus lead to disease? I guess that was my question

 

[JessFR]

Yes, technically covid19 is the disease. Caused by the sars-cov-2 virus. Which is a Coronavirus.

But for simplicity most people just call the virus by the disease name.

It is not the flu, it's not a strain of the flu, it's not an influenza virus at all.

 

[novaveritas]

smallpox was eradicated.

measles is still going strong, we were making progress then antivaxxers fucked it.

Actually I think the vaccine is not good enough to permanently eradicate measles and prevent spreading on reintroduction, People who are vaccinated can and do get infected and do pass it on. Without wild measles circulation boosting vaccine effectiveness the level of population immunity from vaccines alone is way lower than the level that can eliminate the virus. Luckily there is not uniform mixing and those who are most connected are also the most likely to be immune so it does fade out after traveling through as a wave, an outbreak only showing symptoms when it collides with unvaccinated people. Without measles in regular circulation population immunity will rely on the vaccine and will continue to decline to the point where a systematic outbreak is possible and indeed likely.

measles R0 is typically around 20 so on average one infected person infects 20 others, compare coronavirus R0 of 3-4 at most. So measles needs 95% population immunity in a uniform mixed population to be eliminated through immunity, measles vaccine is 94-95% effective at preventing symptomatic infection, less for asymptomatic and sub-clinical. so even 100% vaccination giving 95% population immunity the R0 would still be 1 and the virus would be endemic, if population immunity is a more realistic 60-70%, due to declining immunity then R is more than 1 and measles can go epidemic. The return of measles was totally predictable once vaccine derived immunity became the main source of immunity whether there were "antivaxxers" or not.
This isn't what people want to hear, the narrative has been to blame antivaxxers, or witches or the moon or more recently Trump, Some epidemiologists will admit this, most of them won't because they like to hold onto and use simplistic models of herd immunity which are provably false but have become perceived truths, dogma never to be questioned on pain of banishment. This is annoying when a more pragmatic approach recognizing and allowing for the limitations of the vaccine could actually eliminate measles globally, which would reduce the non zero harms due to the vaccine to zero permanently.

 

[novaveritas]

I'd be interested to know how many (if any) people that have actually had Covid-19 would still say they're not getting vaccinated.

I've had it. It didn't kill me. I don't want it again as it may kill me next time

you have an immune system, yes? It worked last time, chances are it will work next time too, plus it knows what it is doing next time round.

SIREN study of healthcare workers in the UK says you are 90+% protected more likely 99.97% (1- 2/6000 ) protected against symptomatic infection for at least a while. Which is better than any vaccine performance so far.

If you don't have a functional immune system the vaccine won't work either and you are done.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

you have an immune system, yes? It worked last time, chances are it will work next time too, plus it knows what it is doing next time round.

SIREN study of healthcare workers in the UK says you are 90+% protected more likely 99.97% (1- 2/6000 ) protected against symptomatic infection for at least a while. Which is better than any vaccine performance so far.

If you don't have a functional immune system the vaccine won't work either and you are done.

The best I've heard so far is 6 - 9 months immunity from surviving a dose. I had it last May so my time is up now. Plus it's an unpredictable little fucker. Last time I had every symptom going except for respiratory problems, but I may not be so lucky next time.

 

[novaveritas]

I have a better plan.
I get the vaccine. And I brow beat whoever I feel like.

Cause you know what? Being young and fat, or having a preexisting condition, does not mean you should expect to die of fucking covid cause other people care only for themselves. Get the fucking
vaccine, please.

Other people's lives than yours have value. This everybody for themselves shit is just gonna leave everyone screwed long term.

wow!

People should take responsibility for their own health, nobody else cares about your own health more than you do, Nobody, not the government not the doctors not some random on teh interwebs, nobody. Nobody knows more about their own personal health history and risk profile than the person themselves, so the final decision is down to the person themselves, alone.

The corollary of your argument of course, is why should other people put themselves unnecessarily in harms way just because people cannot be bothered to look after themselves? Surely those who are at greater risk should get the vaccine and therefore gain protection long before those where the vaccine is less obviously needed. Atruism has its limits.

Fuck this collectivist pseudo-moralistic pseudo-virtuous bullshit, do it for the team, for humanity, it is manipulative emotional nonsense which has been cleverly deployed. In the past it was used to push people to go war to kill equally misguided innocents from some different country or who believed something different. It is fascinating how the Greta Death Cult screechers have mutated to become the loudest proponents of sacrifice for the Covidian Death Cult.

Take the vaccine if it makes sense for you and your circumstances, don't if it doesn't. There is no other judgement to be made. Period.

 

[novaveritas]

The best I've heard so far is 6 - 9 months immunity from surviving a dose. I had it last May so my time is up now. Plus it's an unpredictable little fucker. Last time I had every symptom going except for respiratory problems, but I may not be so lucky next time.

Maybe. but rather unlikely. Given you had symptoms then you will have made antibodies and memory B cells and T cells all of which will help nail coronavirus next time. They don't just vanish after 6 or 9 months, the antibody levels just go below the limit of detection for the antibody tests. The memory cells just rest waiting for something to wake them up. This is normal, if they didn't eventually you would end up being one huge fat bag made up entirely of antibodies. I'm not obese but over antibodied...

If you are unlucky you could die driving your car to get vaccinated, if you have to drive more than a few miles then its much more likely you will die driving to get vaccinated than die as a result of being re-infected with coronavirus. Even symptoms look to be highly reduced on reinfection, this stat is complicated by the numbers of false positive tests that have occurred, if one of the tests is a false positive then it of course isn't a true re-infection.

If you get subsequently vaccinated after recovering then one dose is enough to get stupidly high antibody levels. Overall vaccinating recovered people does look to be pretty pointless exercise.

 

[JessFR]

wow!

People should take responsibility for their own health, nobody else cares about your own health more than you do, Nobody, not the government not the doctors not some random on teh interwebs, nobody. Nobody knows more about their own personal health history and risk profile than the person themselves, so the final decision is down to the person themselves, alone.

The corollary of your argument of course, is why should other people put themselves unnecessarily in harms way just because people cannot be bothered to look after themselves? Surely those who are at greater risk should get the vaccine and therefore gain protection long before those where the vaccine is less obviously needed. Atruism has its limits.

Fuck this collectivist pseudo-moralistic pseudo-virtuous bullshit, do it for the team, for humanity, it is manipulative emotional nonsense which has been cleverly deployed. In the past it was used to push people to go war to kill equally misguided innocents from some different country or who believed something different. It is fascinating how the Greta Death Cult screechers have mutated to become the loudest proponents of sacrifice for the Covidian Death Cult.

Take the vaccine if it makes sense for you and your circumstances, don't if it doesn't. There is no other judgement to be made. Period.

Of course the vaccine should go to those most at risk first. But once it becomes available to you (by you I mean any given person), unless you have a condition that means you can't be vaccinated or something, then yes, you should get it.

We are all better off by taking a more collectivist attitude on issues like this, yes. I for one would feel guilty/ashamed knowing I was needlessly contributing to putting other people at risk.

 

[Jackal]

I live in a country where we avoided the pandemic. Zero deaths by covid.

We did this by not testing anybody.

No spikes in deaths resulted and all the annoying, old, fat, unhealthy buzzards are still alive and well.

Covid has been here, but no panic and no tests equals a normal year

I am a healthy guy in my mid 30's who had one bout of severe anaphylaxis as a younger guy.

I am not taking a flu shot or a Corona jab.

Oh, I am pro vaccination on the whole