Covid-19 Outbreak of new SARS-like coronavirus (Covid-19)

[JGrimez]

It's demonstrated that masks reduce transmission. I don't know what world you're in.

A world where science matters and the consensus doesn't just change in a few months.
Scientific consensus showing that masks don't work to prevent covid-like viruses

Scientific consensus on masks causing physiological and psychological damage

And besides, vaccines are some of the safest medications out there... the statistics show that serious adverse reactions are less than 1 per million cases.

No they're not. If parents knew the actual dangers of vaccines then they wouldn't vaccinate their children. It's estimated that less than 1% of vaccine injuries are reported to VAERS.

The government put lockdowns/restrictions in place just because they felt it would be a good time to crank the oppression dial up a notch.

Exactly, and it's only a matter of time before even the most in-denial people finally wake up and realize this.
Unfortunately things will have to get REALLY BAD before some people finally get it.

 

[JGrimez]

They have now “normalized” the idea that you can be excluded from events and society with nothing more than a “positive result” on a govt sponsored test that is KNOWN to NOT be accurate. Just imagine what kind of insanity is coming next.

 

[w01fg4ng]

That stuff Trump was given in hospital works pretty good too I hear.

Must be nice being first on the waiting list.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Scientific consensus showing that masks don't work to prevent covid-like viruses

Scientific consensus on masks causing physiological and psychological damage

Your 'scientific consensus' appears to be a load of stuff copied and pasted from facebook- when I try to click the links most just say 'leaving facebook' which shows you did not post the links individually, and in fact i would go further and suggest you did not collate this data yourself. therefore, your 'consensus' could be, for all we know (and in likeliness is given its contradiction with the actual consensus) highly cherry picked by someone using facebook to manipulate people.

here is a well written, comprehensible, and referenced article that brings together a lot of the evidence. nature and science are the creme de la creme of science and should be your go to when trying to establish consensus within the community.

 

[novaveritas]

thank you.

You do know what sekio said was incorrect?
thank you

@JGrimez the polio vaccine is a completely different type of vaccine to the COVID one so there would be no mechanism to get a vaccine strain version of SARS-COV-2.

There is not one type of COVID vaccine, there are the modified RNA vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer and others. There are inactivated vaccines containing whole coronavirus and there are vectored vaccines based on adenovirus. Coming down the pipeline are subpart vaccines and attenuated live coronavirus vaccines

You are correct with the modified RNA vaccine there is no chance of a vaccine strain escape as there is never a complete virus.
BUT

With the Astrazeneca Johnson and Johnson and Sputnik adenovirus vaccines they contain a disabled adenovirus that is unable to replicate, but any replication competent adenovirus vector which has stolen the needed gene from the cell culture it has been grown on would be fully infectious and transmissable just like live polio vaccine. Bad news because that would be a totally new hybrid GMO virus and would be as infectious as adenovirus (very very infectious)

With the inactivated coronavirus vaccines then incomplete inactivation would lead to a vaccine derived strain being present,

finally with attenuated live vaccines a infectious vaccine strain is the entire basis of vaccine.

people who know a lot about these things know how little we really know...YMMV

 

[Jabberwocky]

You do know what sekio said was incorrect?
thank you

in what way was he incorrect? based on your style of argument i would guess you will base it on an obviously disingenuous interpretation

There is not one type of COVID vaccine, there are the modified RNA vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer and others. There are inactivated vaccines containing whole coronavirus and there are vectored vaccines based on adenovirus. Coming down the pipeline are subpart vaccines and attenuated live coronavirus vaccines

You are correct with the modified RNA vaccine there is no chance of a vaccine strain escape as there is never a complete virus.
BUT

With the Astrazeneca Johnson and Johnson and Sputnik adenovirus vaccines they contain a disabled adenovirus that is unable to replicate, but any replication competent adenovirus vector which has stolen the needed gene from the cell culture it has been grown on would be fully infectious and transmissable just like live polio vaccine. Bad news because that would be a totally new hybrid GMO virus and would be as infectious as adenovirus (very very infectious)

With the inactivated coronavirus vaccines then incomplete inactivation would lead to a vaccine derived strain being present,

finally with attenuated live vaccines a infectious vaccine strain is the entire basis of vaccine.

people who know a lot about these things know how little we really know...YMMV

as the pfizer vaccine is currently the one being distributed in my country, that is what i refer to as 'the' COVID vaccine. i have certainly not said there is only one type of vaccine so you're attacking a straw man.

you talk about people who know a lot about these things as if you are one. you are not. you clearly lack the skills required for a career in research. i have already stated above that vaccinology is not my area of expertise and that i work in viral genomics (and yes, i know just how little we know in that field. for fucks sake BLAST can't even identify reads simulated based on the refseq references for common viruses!!!). this means that i work with wet lab people on a day to day basis. i.e. people with the knowledge you are referring to.

 

[novaveritas]

in what way was he incorrect? based on your style of argument i would guess you will base it on an obviously disingenuous interpretation


as the pfizer vaccine is currently the one being distributed in my country, that is what i refer to as 'the' COVID vaccine. i have certainly not said there is only one type of vaccine so you're attacking a straw man.

you talk about people who know a lot about these things as if you are one. you are not. you clearly lack the skills required for a career in research. i have already stated above that vaccinology is not my area of expertise and that i work in viral genomics (and yes, i know just how little we know in that field. for fucks sake BLAST can't even identify reads simulated based on the refseq references for common viruses!!!). this means that i work with wet lab people on a day to day basis. i.e. people with the knowledge you are referring to.

so given you work in viral genomics lets move to your field, can you explain the genetic distance has VUI2020/21 from UK coronavirus variants prevalent in september 2020. Coronavirus mutation clock is roughly 15 days between base mutation...where are the intermediate sequenced viruses. How did this variant emerge?
your field...
over to you
Thankyou

 

[JGrimez]

Your 'scientific consensus' appears to be a load of stuff copied and pasted from facebook- when I try to click the links most just say 'leaving facebook' which shows you did not post the links individually, and in fact i would go further and suggest you did not collate this data yourself. therefore, your 'consensus' could be, for all we know (and in likeliness is given its contradiction with the actual consensus) highly cherry picked by someone using facebook to manipulate people.

here is a well written, comprehensible, and referenced article that brings together a lot of the evidence. nature and science are the creme de la creme of science and should be your go to when trying to establish consensus within the community.

Well that's a fucking lie I didn't need to browse FB once to collate these studies. I went through and summarized them myself. That is the scientific consensus.
Unless you can actually take the time to do your own research and find a larger number of (credible) studies that contradict what I've found. One article doesn't cut it sorry and even at the start of the article it says:

“I said, ‘Yeah, that might be good, but there’s limited data on whether face masks are actually effective,’” says Benn, a global-health researcher at the University of Southern Denmark in Copenhagen, who for decades has co-led public-health campaigns in the West African country, one of the world’s poorest.

So it admits that someone who's been in the field for decades understood the scientific consensus - which is that there was no good evidence that masks are effective.

They mentioned the frequently-referenced hamster study out of Hong Kong with the dubious headline, "Surgical Masks Can Reduce Spread of Covid-19 virus by up to 75%". To replicate "real-life situations" the lead researcher placed surgical masks between the cages of hamsters in an isolated facility. If this study replicates real-life situations to the researcher, we should all be seriously concerned by the type of social life he has.

(Also considering how much blatant medical nonsense we saw last year, I'm a tad more weary of studies that came out in 2020 which go against the consensus of decades of previous research.)

The article mentions:

A research group in Denmark enrolled some 6,000 participants, asking half to use surgical face masks when going to a workplace. Although the study is completed, Thomas Benfield, a clinical researcher at the University of Copenhagen and one of the principal investigators on the trial, says that his team is not ready to share any results.

Well we have the results now:

 

[novaveritas]

can you please provide a reputable source for this claim? i'm not even sure what it means. can you please clarify how a vaccinated person can carry the virus? (excluding the presumably minute proportion who are infected at the time of vaccination) the vaccine does not infect people with the virus, but it enables their immune systems to respond appropriately should the virus attempt to take hold in their body.

Research sterilizing immunity.
It has nothing to do with those who are infected at the time of vaccination.

People vaccinated against flu can carry and transmit flu they just tend not to get sick themselves. People vaccinated against pertussis carry pertussis, in fact this it the main transmission mechanism for pertussis adults carry it.
People vaccinated against measles can become infected and transmit measles, they just tend to have a sub clinical infection.

Likewise with coronavirus, the macaques vaccinated against coronavirus became infected on challenge. Look up the Oxford AZ work.
The best case that can be hoped for is that vaccination reduces transmission with coronavirus, but there is no evidence yet that this is true.

You no doubt already knew all this.

 

[JGrimez]

You do know what sekio said was incorrect?
thank you


There is not one type of COVID vaccine, there are the modified RNA vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer and others. There are inactivated vaccines containing whole coronavirus and there are vectored vaccines based on adenovirus. Coming down the pipeline are subpart vaccines and attenuated live coronavirus vaccines

You are correct with the modified RNA vaccine there is no chance of a vaccine strain escape as there is never a complete virus.
BUT

With the Astrazeneca Johnson and Johnson and Sputnik adenovirus vaccines they contain a disabled adenovirus that is unable to replicate, but any replication competent adenovirus vector which has stolen the needed gene from the cell culture it has been grown on would be fully infectious and transmissable just like live polio vaccine. Bad news because that would be a totally new hybrid GMO virus and would be as infectious as adenovirus (very very infectious)

With the inactivated coronavirus vaccines then incomplete inactivation would lead to a vaccine derived strain being present,

finally with attenuated live vaccines a infectious vaccine strain is the entire basis of vaccine.

people who know a lot about these things know how little we really know...YMMV

Are you concerned about these new vaccines? Do you have any other concerns?

Also does this make any sense to you:

Messing around with DNA is iffy at best. Because of genetic recombination, each individual is unique. We know that the previous RNA vaccine candidates against MERS and SARS were stopped because they increased the vulnerability to other viruses. The purveyors of vaccines such as this have not well considered that some individuals might be transformed into mutation and amplification and mass production factories of something way worse than Covid. A real, horrible pandemic might come from this vaccine interacting with the DNA of specific individuals. There may be a small percentage of them, but all it takes is one. It's the spike protein that is produced that is like HIV and also endogenous retroviruses that are already resident in our DNA that could be activated and behave like a Black Death. Components of the spike protein are homologous to some of our endogenous retroviruses. They've found in our endogenous retroviruses even stuff that's similar to Ebola. In other words, sticking messenger RNA in a vaccine is a really, REALLY bad idea. This is a spike protein from an outside pathogen that your body doesn't make. Your body defends against it but your body could be retooled to make it in mass quantities and make it particularly virulent or to make some hybrid with some other virus in your body.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Well that's a fucking lie I didn't need to browse FB once to collate these studies.

try clicking on all the links in your collations from a private browsing tab and see what it says. it doesn't take you directly to a paper, it takes you to a facebook page warning that you're about to leave facebook. unless you have now edited your original posts to put the direct links in, which wouldn't surprise me tbh but it will show an edit for after i pointed this out to you.

i posted one article because it collates all the data and references it. its a bit more digestible than a pile of papers and thus more suitable for an informal discussion on a drug forum. you bolding 'this is the scientific consensus' does not constitute evidence of a consensus. nor does one article having used some dodgy methods in an animal study mean that everyone arguing the same as those authors is wrong. yes, the Denmark study does look like it supports you but read the link in the tweet: ' Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection.' and limitations: 'Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others.'

@novoveritas i don't need to look up the Oxford AZ network (assuming you are referring to Astra Zeneca) because half my old lab was seconded to them. i'm not going to debate vaccinology with you because i've stated its not my area of expertise and you have made it clear it isn't yours.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Messing around with DNA is iffy at best. Because of genetic recombination, each individual is unique. We know that the previous RNA vaccine candidates against MERS and SARS were stopped because they increased the vulnerability to other viruses. The purveyors of vaccines such as this have not well considered that some individuals might be transformed into mutation and amplification and mass production factories of something way worse than Covid. A real, horrible pandemic might come from this vaccine interacting with the DNA of specific individuals. There may be a small percentage of them, but all it takes is one. It's the spike protein that is produced that is like HIV and also endogenous retroviruses that are already resident in our DNA that could be activated and behave like a Black Death. Components of the spike protein are homologous to some of our endogenous retroviruses. They've found in our endogenous retroviruses even stuff that's similar to Ebola. In other words, sticking messenger RNA in a vaccine is a really, REALLY bad idea. This is a spike protein from an outside pathogen that your body doesn't make. Your body defends against it but your body could be retooled to make it in mass quantities and make it particularly virulent or to make some hybrid with some other virus in your body.

come on. you don't honestly believe this. at least show us the respect of supplying reputable sources. do you even know what an endogenous retrovirus is? lol.

 

[JessFR]

There is precedence for lockdowns, social isolation, mask-wearing on a large scale: there was this little disease called the Spanish Flu. People were even prevented from going to church. Schools closed. Yet somehow life went on.
Sure, it was bad they did not come out advising a lockdown and mandating masks from day 1, but hindsight is 20/20. At the time it was unknown just how badly the virus was going to effect the USA.
You say flipping stances and moving goalposts, I see a public health authority making policy decisions based on the data available at the time. It's not like they have gone back and forth on the issue either, for the last couple of months at least, the message has consistently been that masks are good and travel/contact bad.

I think that if people had acted like reasonable human beings and adhered to a policy of masking and isolation the US wouldn't have the equivalent of 9/11 reoccurring every 2 days.


I'm sure the experience isn't exactly what you'd call pleasurable. And the 0.03% that die don't matter at all...

It's bs anyway. A 99.97% survival rate isn't a 99.97% recovery rate.

And that's if it were true in the first place, which seems highly dubious given 0.03% fatality rate is about 100k deaths... If every single American were infected, and the current total is more than 3 times higher with 16 times fewer people.

I find it especially outrageous given Grimez lives in a country where he his likely hood of even getting the virus is very low thanks to the very measures he's opposing.

17 days left Grimez.. 17 days left.

 

[JGrimez]

i posted one article because it collates all the data and references it. its a bit more digestible than a pile of papers and thus more suitable for an informal discussion on a drug forum.

I summarized all the papers so anyone can read through them in a few minutes or they can click the link and go to the study themselves if they want more info on how it was conducted.

you bolding 'this is the scientific consensus' does not constitute evidence of a consensus.

I know, the studies that I posted constitute evidence of a consensus. And until you can show me a higher number of studies which prove the opposite then that remains. In fact I believe that's the definition of scientific consensus.

come on. you don't honestly believe this. at least show us the respect of supplying reputable sources. do you even know what an endogenous retrovirus is? lol.

I didn't ask you. I asked the guy who knows what he's talking about.

 

[JGrimez]

I find it especially outrageous given Grimez lives in a country where he his likely hood of even getting the virus is very low thanks to the very measures he's opposing.

That's a massive assumption since when researchers looked at all countries they found no significant correlation between whether a country locked down and covid death rates. The worst 20 countries for deaths per capita all locked down. Peru, the world's strictest lockdown was 3rd worse overall for deaths. Argentina, the world's longest lockdown was 6th worse for deaths.

What I find outrageous is people like yourself just acquiescing (and defending) their rights being taken away and ignoring the blatant subversion of medicine right in front of their eyes.

 

[ions]

All you can do is charge.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I didn't ask you. I asked the guy who knows what he's talking about.

he doesn't know what he's talking about though. i have said multiple times in this thread i work in viral genomics and then you post the most wrong thing i've ever read about viral genomics, so i can't resist responding. if you'd prefer to keep it private with nova then go to pm.

look, your fantasy post doesn't even take into account the central dogma of biology, this is like first year undergrad level. you mix up DNA, RNA and protein as if they are all equivalent and they are not. you show your naivety by stating that each individual is different- actually every fucking cell is different if you bothered with the details, of course individuals who are the result of sexual replication (i.e. recombination) vary, though obviously they share genetic variation with their close relatives. but there is a fuckton of other ways that every geonme within the same individual can vary- so the idea of each individual having a specific genetic code is wrong, we have as many genetic codes as we have cells.

you talk about endogoenous retroviruses as if they are actual things in our body. they are not, they are remnants in our genomes from evolution long past. now, i could go into a long discussion about how retrotransposons make my life fucking difficult but you wouldn't understand because you have no comprehension of how biological data is generated (either by organisms or in a lab) or interpreted. i gave you an opportunity to actually look up what one is so you could correct yourself and you didn't.

endogenous retroviruses cannot be magically activated- what mechanism would you propose for that? firstly, because they are so old they are usually in non coding DNA which is subject to a much higher mutation rate than coding DNA (due to selection) so there aren't full codes for a working virus left in there. but then how would you transcribe the thing? even if you did somehow correct all the errors to get a code for the original virus? you would need the markers that are used to indicate where transcription should begin and end to magically be in the right place, and the transcription factors to behave appropriately.

interpreting your post kindly, you are asking for too many coincidences all in the same group of cells at the same time for it to be a real concern, on the balance of probabilities.

 

[finitelifeform]

Yes it is the spike protein (I clearly alluded to that); it was the prettiest image I could find (which I didnt realize required further explanation but apparently you require it). My point was to demonstrate a certain understanding.

What is your larger point?

The larger point is the picture is just a picture. It's missing the larger point in itself, which is ironic.

to be clear I am not arguing from the position the virus does not exist. I have some inactivated tagged with colloidal gold.

I am just calling out people posting pseudo scientific garbage. You know who you are

Sekio of course it is false color, its not purple...everyone knows it is red and the new version yellow and green.

I too side with the belief it exists but whatever exists is what bothers me. What people assume is the virus is the whipped up frenzy created by the establishment and their intelligence and military apparatus, as well as mainstream media.

Want the whole reference genome of the virus? It's freely available.

Using computer modelling.
When it comes to the actual reality of how we look at the disease, we are throwing punches in the dark. Therefore much is implied yet not empirically proven. This is why so many people, including those who are respected in the scientific community have challenged the methods used across the board. It is not cut and dry. There is very little evidence for lots of things, when you are able to look at things objectively. This isn't to say that everything that swings towards being disproven implies EVERYTHING can be disproven. It means that it's not AND/OR thinking, it's not black and white. Apples are not oranges. 2 + 2 is not 50. This is where the break from using our senses has occured and now people are living in a reality governed by a simple lack of utilization of their faculties that otherwise would paint a picture of the whole situation in a more objective, open minded and skeptical light.

After all, if we all strive for scientific understanding surely the first port of call is actually understanding the main foundations of empirical science itself. This also includes the main principles of medicine too. If we've made so much progress in the world thus far, why suddenly throw it away because we're all on a 9 month psychedelic trip that we don't want to wear off? All that's going to happen is you'll wake up one day, or your children will or their children, and the true extent of what unfolded while everybody was distracted will become clear. It always has worked that way. We correct for our mistakes in history. It takes time but we do. Meanwhile, the destruction left behind will be all too real when everything wears off.

That is of course assuming that people liked living in a free world governed by age old founding principles that made your reality what it is today including your rights, liberties and freedoms. Perhaps people want a life more akin to the Chinese way of life. Maybe people want to show their papers whenever they enter the cinema or a football match. Want social credit scores that allow governments and their affiliated third parties to choose whether you can be part of society based on their ideal image of a citizen. Maybe they want to be harrassed for evidence they are 'not infected' whenever and wherever possible despite COVID-19 having faded into the past along time ago. Maybe total top-down surveillance of every aspect of your life is what you want. That means even being on here will be scrutinized and the laws will be available for authorities to tell you forums like this are non-essential and promotion of activities and behaviours that go against the agendas of the authorities are outlawed. Maybe you'll surrender your freedom to communicate freely. Sooner or later things will click and you'll realize a sequenced genome, computer generated or not, was water off a ducks back compared to the bigger picture.

If you don't believe me, just look around. Your mainstream media and government and even your friends and family are telling you things will never go back to normal. You're being made to accept this. And for a virus that is similiar to a moderate-strong flu? It's convenient how something like the flu can change the world and for your way of life to be snatched from you. How something that usually comes and goes now sticks around forever and changes how you live your life.

Genome sequences are 1% of this story. You need to look deeper.

 

[JessFR]

That's a massive assumption since when researchers looked at all countries they found no significant correlation between whether a country locked down and covid death rates. The worst 20 countries for deaths per capita all locked down. Peru, the world's strictest lockdown was 3rd worse overall for deaths. Argentina, the world's longest lockdown was 6th worse for deaths.

What I find outrageous is people like yourself just acquiescing (and defending) their rights being taken away and ignoring the blatant subversion of medicine right in front of their eyes.

Well what can I say you and others like you have done an amazing job over the years convincing me in how belief in rights can be corrupted. Making me less inclined towards such extreme interpretations.

Especially given how much better countries with less extreme interpretations like Australia have done over one's with more like America.

Much as I generally love the bill of rights, I'm also quite fond of living in a country where I can go out and not worry about giving my older relatives a potentially lethal disease.

Especially in comparison to my American relatives who have no such luxury.

Freedom takes many forms.

 

[novaveritas]

@novoveritas i don't need to look up the Oxford AZ network (assuming you are referring to Astra Zeneca) because half my old lab was seconded to them. i'm not going to debate vaccinology with you because i've stated its not my area of expertise and you have made it clear it isn't yours.

sadly this is not advanced specialist immunology or vaccinology but basic biology which you were taught as an undergrad and should be able to remember. Your refusal to read the primary literature which shows your understanding to be incorrect is amusing.

anyway lets discuss the question posed which is your field, your claimed area of expertise.

Viral genetics. I am still awaiting your thoughts on VUI2020/12 coronavirus variant, a variant with considerably greater genetic difference than would be expected, appearing out of nowhere on the 21st September at the Milton Keynes Pillar 2 lab, subsequently sequenced by CoG UK when none of its immediate progenitors have been sequenced at all. AFAIK there are 10 base mutations to the nearest known relative and it is more than that to the variants prevalent in September.
Give us non-researcher mortals the benefit of your boundless expertise.....