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Toxic masculinity isn't real

birdup.snaildown said:
@MrsGamp

I'm not sure what domestic violence has to do with "toxic masculinity"?

There is more domestic violence reported from men to women than vice-versa... but there is also a lot more domestic violence (roughly double what white women experience in heterosexual relationships) experienced by women in lesbian relationships and also experienced by black women in heterosexual relationships with black men.

So, if the rate of domestic violence is an indication of toxic masculinity... you should also acknowledge toxic lesbianism, and conclude that afro-masculinity is more toxic than masculinity.

Also - I couldn't be bothered researching it thoroughly - but it appears that African American men are victims of domestic abuse from African American women at a much higher rate than white men from white women.

When domestic abuse clearly exists in many different forms, why are only men toxic?
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What you're pointing out is that patriarchy theory ultimately ignores class and race divides when it comes to demonizing men.
 
SnafuInTheVoid said:
Ok, I realize this is an extremely controversial and sensitive subject so please hear me out before you crucify me.

I was listening to a podcast and this subject was brought up.

Toxic masculinity isn't really a thing.

If a man is being "toxically masculine" it has nothing to do with masculinity. That person is just a piece of shit. If you beat women, display dominance to the detriment to others or any other signs of "toxic masculinity" you are simply a fucking asshole. Period. It has nothing to do with hormones or being a man. Real men do not hit women (in 99% of cases).

There has never been the concept of toxic femininity. In my view, extreme femininity is generally seen as a good thing by everyone else (my own opinion is a little more complex). Everything is duality. You can't have toxic masculinity without toxic femininity. Females can be extremely toxic and abusive, too. Again, there is no such thing as toxic masculinity - that person is just a fucking asshole piece of shit!

And to be clear: NO I am not trying to condone or excuse men who are assholes or abusive. I am NOT trying to explain domestic abuse or anything of that nature. I am simply playing devil's advocate and being logical about things.

I DO believe in things like the patriarchy to an extent, I DO believe women in general are oppressed even in these modern times.

However I DO NOT believe masculinity itself should be called toxic. It has nothing to do with toxic behaivor.
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I’ve always hated the word “toxic” when referring to a person or in some kind of social manner like that. To me it just sounds like a way to judge people and make people feel better about themselves. And it has become a trendy thing which doesn’t really provide any kind of real solution to the problem.

I agree with you that it is not the actual hormones themselves that is causing the violence and the unwanted behavior. But I don’t think these people are just assholes. Anyone who sees this probably will not agree with that but I think society is very misunderstood on these kinds of things on many different levels.

Certain psychological and emotional problems can make it a lot harder for people to take control of their actions and it’s easy to say that we would not do the same thing but we do not know other peoples traumas and life experiences that led to that kind of behavior and we do not know the extent of their weaknesses and vulnerabilities and sensitivities. How can we when they constantly try to convince other people how tough and confident they are??

The obvious and typical reaction is that people become outraged and feel the need to throw out obscenities and profanities and judgmental labels but I think the solution lies more in taking a step back and being able to observe the problem objectively and trying to be understanding and not falling into those same typical reactions of impulse and anger that people have been repeating for generations and generations. We need to learn to put our personal feelings to the side and observe the situation from a genuine compassionate and intelligent calm manner. That’s the only way true change will come along.

People who abuse other people don’t really care at all what you have to say about them. So ridiculing them will just make matters worse and will not make a difference. It might just encourage them to be even more obnoxious. And it will just cause more conflict and separation and suffering.
 
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Why is masculinity involved with extremes instead of comic irony? Men tend to laugh at harsh 'facts' instead of emotional attachment?
 
Every time you read a BL post in either the “bitches I have fucked” or “people I’ve bashed” genres you are witnessing toxic masculinity. It’s not simply another term for domestic violence.
 
Atelier3 said:
Every time you read a BL post in either the “bitches I have fucked” or “people I’ve bashed” genres you are witnessing toxic masculinity. It’s not simply another term for domestic violence.
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You don't know if that's toxic masculinity, or mental health, or being misanthropic, or just plain sociopathic.

Toxic masculinity is a pretty much useless term.
 
birdup.snaildown said:
Lower class Americans don't realize they aren't really lower class.
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When I was growing up it seemed like you were either poor which means you're on government assistance or live on the street, you're middle-class which means you have enough to get by even if you borrow a lot of money and pay it off or you're wealthy upper-class and your taxes are probably as high as your overall living expenses. I don't recall hearing about an upper-middle class till I was an adult. That doesn't mean there wasn't one but I hadn't heard of it
 
one time we and my frend came back from the mall and i said " cuz were low class " he got so mad it was funny, then im like ok im low class, but the reality was we were both low class
 
Gormur said:
When I was growing up it seemed like you were either poor which means you're on government assistance or live on the street, you're middle-class which means you have enough to get by even if you borrow a lot of money and pay it off or you're wealthy upper-class and your taxes are probably as high as your overall living expenses. I don't recall hearing about an upper-middle class till I was an adult. That doesn't mean there wasn't one but I hadn't heard of it
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The classes are also defined by political or institutional power:
Lower class: no money or power
Middle class: money but no power
Upper class: money and power

"Money" more precisely means disposable income.

Upper-middle class may have similar wealth to members of the upper class, but they have no political influence, which is why they will always be middle class.
 
It may have just been that where I grew up didn't have an upper-middle class. When my dad bought our house it was about $84,000. It's probably worth $300,000 now. So everybody who lives where I grew up are probably these upper-middle class that didn't exist when I was coming up
 
Gormur said:
It may have just been that where I grew up didn't have an upper-middle class. When my dad bought our house it was about $84,000. It's probably worth $300,000 now. So everybody who lives where I grew up are probably these upper-middle class that didn't exist when I was coming up
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The class system doesn't quite work the same anymore, mostly because the wealth is all being sucked up by the ultra rich, the middle class is shrinking, and the markets (like real estate) which are supposed to moderate wealth distribution are not functioning realistically anymore.

The economy is fucked, really.
 
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