Mass Shootings and Gun Debate 2019ish

[F.U.B.A.R.]

^London has a murder rate higher than New York's.

And?

Yes, we have gang members that go around stabbing rival gang members, but we dont have psychotic virgins walking around with AK47s murdering innocent people en masse...

 

[What 23]

Okay..

 

[What 23]

How do you know he was a virgin?
If he is truly psychotic, as well, this will factor into his sentencing. We'll see.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

How do you know he was a virgin?
If he is truly psychotic, as well, this will factor into his sentencing. We'll see.

That was just a flippant comment and not meant to be taken seriously. The fact still remains that if this idiot didn't have access to automatic weapons then he probably wouldn't have had the balls to attempt this kind of shit. I'm guessing you're in the 'more guns = less crime' camp?

 

[mal3volent]

In this conversation, I never said "send them back". I have said, perhaps, that the Africans should have been sent back, way back when, although I have some trouble with that because it constitutes force...like taxes and large intrusive government which made it possible for them and other unlike groups of people in large numbers to exist here as "free people" and in Europe in the first place, anyways, without this breaking out into war. I did say in another thread, not this one, that we shouldn't have brought Africans here to be slaves in the first place. Because of what happened with it, and the divide now, and potential for division.

I also never said "fake news" on this website. So your comment was disingenuous. It's disingenuous also because someone might take your quoted words - of me - as something I actually said, which I didn't. I know what you meant by it, but another might not.

I was quoting from the manifesto you posted (from the shooter)... I think that would be obvious to anyone reading the thread. I was making the point that this guy was regurgitating phrases created by our president.

 

[What 23]

I'm guessing you're in the 'more guns = less crime' camp?

I am a loner. I don't really stay in a camp with others. I don't think that at this point either direction is really without negative. I did write this post sort of about it on page 21:

what should occur?

what greater background check would have prevented him from having a gun, in this case? should these guns be banned/outlawed? I think of the "well-armed militia" - I have thought that guns do need to be regulated better, as long as they are being sold by companies of people who profit from it. There should, I have thought, be people involved and responsible for others if individuals are allowed to purchase such weaponry, or in the case of some ability to produce it themselves, like 3D-Printing, regulation of that equipment somehow. But then I consider personal-protection. Should a person have to be affiliated with a public-social unit to protect their home, to be able to purchase a firearm to protect their homes? What kind of firearm should not be allowed to protect one's home?

I am certainly not for "taking away guns", but I do see there are problems when a company can mass-produce them for purchase by ordinary citizens, who may act as individuals, who may do what this guy did, when these are tools designed specifically to kill, and often to kill other humans. It's like we don't have the cleanest system to do anything about it.

In this circumstance, and in the circumstance of Brenton Tarrant, and Anders Breivik, and the guys that shot people at the synagogs, I find that this violence is probably inevitable, and should be expected. Reading the manifestos of these people, I certainly understand their anger, their reasons for it-- but I can't really say I agree with killing people in general, like this. But governments haven't done a good job, obviously. In more ways than one, they have failed. And have probably been bought out by corporations, in good part, in whatever way that happens. Corporations want mass-immigration, and fewer borders. It's "good" for business. But it's not good for people who are naturally what we call "racist", eventually... Not good for cohesion. Not good if we are aiming for less outside, big government.

We're not addressing the root causes of things. His "white nationalist", "anti-immigrant" views...well, he'll and anyone that identifies with what he wrote about in his manifesto, will be painted as some isolated evil, the cause, the problem. As if that problem existed in isolation.

There are so many things wrong. Sometimes people just want to say something, do something, and maybe at a loss, they can only say a prayer.

I don't agree that you should be able to take my gun. I will kill you if you try to. I'm not saying I actually will, or even that I have a gun, but I don't like the idea of you forcefully taking anything away from me, including the right/option/ability to defend myself. It's a complicated issue, and as stated in my post, I do find trouble with it - with people having the ability to just go and buy lethal weapons, created by companies, especially with the lack of social-support and involvement before and around that ownership. I idealize a kind of militia involvement that comes with owning these weapons, and basically making it so if you do own one, you have to have a relationship in a significant way with others who are gun owners, and ideally some organization around the ownership of the weapons. Maybe have a military, or something, society, where everyone is required to serve on some level, in earlier ages, and perhaps where people are continually evaluated to in part assess their ability...to have these things responsibly. Where others around them will keep them in check, and make sure there are no "lone-wolves" that are about to go shoot some people. But we at this point have a very divided society, and I'm not even sure if that would be possible at this point. I don't know.

I was quoting from the manifesto you posted (from the shooter)... I think that would be obvious to anyone reading the thread. I was making the point that this guy was regurgitating phrases created by our president.

Ah. I didn't catch that. Still it would help to further say, somehow, that I was quoting someone else. I also read it some hours before, and didn't remember the actual words - just what he basically said/meant, before I copied/pasted it here.

He also said his opinions haven't changed in multiple years, and were this way before Trump was elected. Trump didn't cause this - however he may have emboldened some like him, but it all came about because of many other things, including Trump becoming president. This is not me saying I think he's a great president. Just that it's useless to cast blame (however, Trump could do better, but it's hard to be honest about some things in this society...). Trump is just a piece that fit into another that had to exist for him to fit in.

 

[Chris42393]

With these horrible mass shootings happening, there seems to be a "push" on banning "assault weapons". But in reality, this won't do a single thing. If someone wants to commit a horrible atrocity like this, do you really think buying an "illegal" gun is going to stop them? They want to KILL a mass amount of people. They're not going to be like ... "Well ... my plan is ruined, I don't want to break the law and buy an illegal gun... What am I going to do now?". In some cities ie. Chicago ... buying a weapon on the street is as easy as buying a happy meal (<--just used a random example).

There are TONS of things that are illegal, that people still continue to buy. Ie. drugs. How is buying an illegal gun any different? Assuming someone wants to do something like this (mass shooting).

Can you change my mind? I'm open to ideas.

 

[mal3volent]

Still it would help to further say, somehow, that I was quoting someone else.

That's fair. I fixed it.

 

[cduggles]

If you penalize the people who are selling illegally significantly, then it might change things. These guns come from somewhere.
Tighter inventory controls would be good as well.

 

[apocalypse_when]

As someone who has used firearms extensively in conflicts around the globe, I can say with surety that banning guns will do fuck all.. If bad people want to hurt you they will find a way... Guns are just an efficient tool for killing.. But they're not the only tool.. We took more casualties in Afghan from home made IEDs that I could teach anyone to make in 10 minutes

 

[nuttynutskin]

I agree. There's so many firearms already out there here in the U.S. that if a psychopathic criminal wants one they will find a way to get one unfortunately.

 

[cduggles]

Mod stuff: I moved everything recent from the “Big and Senseless Mass Shooting Thread” into this one.

We had two shooting threads going at once.

It was getting confusing! 8(

 

[mal3volent]

I cringe thinking about how you've framed this thread (re: crowder) , but yeah I will try.

Here I go...

Proponents of banning assault weapons do not believe that such legislation will prevent all crime involving assault weapons. They believe that it will drastically reduce it or, at the very least, reduce it. A 700lb man should still go on a diet even though he may never have a perfect BMI. Why? Because he will live longer and be happier. The result may not be perfect but it will be better.

A lot of these kids who are shooting up their schools are awkward antisocial introverts (takes one to know one I guess) not street smart ruffians with tons of connections. They steal their guns from law abiding family members or obtain them legally on their own. (Most of the time).

The idea is to put more hurdles between a person who wants to do something bad and their ability to do it. It needs to be a comprehensive approach. Not just mental health. Not just gun regulations.

So you see, the fact that banning assault weapons won't prevent mass shootings isn't really relevant. What should be guiding our decision making is bringing down the death toll.

 

[apocalypse_when]

The term "assault rifle" is a misnomer anyway...

Unless you own a select fire, intermediate cartridge rifle.... It's not an "assault rifle"

 

[Chris42393]

The term "assault rifle" is a misnomer anyway...

Unless you own a select fire, intermediate cartridge rifle.... It's not an "assault rifle"

I know its not an assault rifle haha. I put it in "quotes". A lot of Liberals think they are for some reason (because they look "scary", I'm guessing?). But having used them myself I definitely know the difference haha

 

[apocalypse_when]

I know its not an assault rifle haha. I put it in "quotes". A lot of Liberals think they are for some reason (because they look "scary", I'm guessing?). But having used them myself I definitely know the difference haha

They don't realise a 30-06 semi auto hunting rifle is more dangerous....

But its not black and scary so it doest count haha!!

 

[Chris42393]

I cringe thinking about how you've framed this thread (re: crowder) , but yeah I will try.

Here I go...

Proponents of banning assault weapons do not believe that such legislation will prevent all crime involving assault weapons. They believe that it will drastically reduce it or, at the very least, reduce it. A 700lb man should still go on a diet even though he may never have a perfect BMI. Why? Because he will live longer and be happier. The result may not be perfect but it will be better.

A lot of these kids who are shooting up their schools are awkward antisocial introverts (takes one to know one I guess) not street smart ruffians with tons of connections. They steal their guns from law abiding family members or obtain them legally on their own. (Most of the time).

The idea is to put more hurdles between a person who wants to do something bad and their ability to do it. It needs to be a comprehensive approach. Not just mental health. Not just gun regulations.

So you see, the fact that banning assault weapons won't prevent mass shootings isn't really relevant. What should be guiding our decision making is bringing down the death toll.

You don't necessarily need tons of connections to buy an illegal gun. I know of several places where you can buy one (no, I NEVER bought one nor will I buy one ... illegally that is) ... Online being one of the places.

Stealing them and buying them on the street is both illegal. Obv. people will go the path of least resistance first (stealing them from a family member), if they can't do that ... Im guessing they will buy them illegally.

I understand trying to put more hurdles up, but if someone wants to do this. NOTHING will stop them. Some people take weeks to months planning these things out.

(sorry about earlier btw. I was hungry as fuck and I can become a real bitch when im hungry hahaha)

 

[Chris42393]

They don't realise a 30-06 semi auto hunting rifle is more dangerous....

But its not black and scary so it doest count haha!!

Yep, you're absolutely right haha.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Trump calls mass shootings ‘a mental illness problem’

Kadia Tubman 1 hour 24 minutes ago

President Trump declared the two shootings in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, Ohio, that left at least 29 people dead within 24 hours a “mental illness problem.”

“We’re talking to a lot of people and a lot of things are in the works,” Trump said Sunday when asked by a reporter what he was going to do the country's “gun problem.” “We have done much more than most administrations… but perhaps more has to be done. But this is also a mental illness problem. If you look at both of these cases, this is mental illness. These are people that are very, very seriously mentally ill.”

Officials have not conclusively determined the motives behind the attacks, or said anything about the alleged shooters’ mental state. The El Paso shooting is being investigated as a possible hate crime. An anti-immigrant “manifesto” has been connected to the shooter.

The first shooting occurred Saturday morning, when a gunman identified as Patrick Crusius, a 21-year-old from Allen, Texas, opened fire at a packed Walmart near the Cielo Vista Mall in El Paso with an assault rifle, killing 20 people and wounding dozens. Officials on Sunday declared the attack an act of “domestic terrorism." Thirteen hours later, Connor Betts, 24, killed nine people, including his sister, with an AR-15-like assault rifle in less than a minute outside a bar in downtown Dayton.

The El Paso shooting was declared an act of “domestic terrorism" by the Justice Department,

White House acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney referred to the gunmen in El Paso and Dayton "crazy people" who "should not be able to get guns."

"Sick people who are intent on doing things like this should not be able to buy guns legally," he said Sunday on ABC's "This Week."

Mulvaney did not say how sellers could determine the mental health of customers or their intentions in buying a gun.

Other Republican officials, including Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick blamed the attacks on violent video games or the lack of prayers in school, while Democrats condemned the El Paso attack as white nationalist terrorism linked to Trump's rhetoric.

“I challenge everyone in the Democratic primary race to join me on common sense things like gun licensing,” Sen. Cory Booker said Sunday on CNN’s State of the Union. “In this country, you need a license to drive a car. You should need a license to buy and possess a firearm.”

Gun control proposals from Booker and other Democratic presidential candidates include universal background checks on all firearm purchases, requiring a license for all gun owners and an outright ban on assault weapons. Democrats lawmakers demanded that Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell reconvene Congress in light of these recent attacks to pass a background check bill.

While Governor Greg Abbott, R-Texas, turned his focus to “mental health” issues after the shooting in El Paso, former Republican Governor of Ohio John Kasich called for “reasonable gun control legislation” to reduce gun violence after the shooting in Dayton.

“I can pray with the best of them but prayer without action doesn't matter,” Kasich said Sunday on CNN’s State of the Union. “And people say, well, it's all white nationalism. OK, yes, that we should condemn it, of course. And frankly, that's a cause for people to look at whether somebody is stable or not. But at the same time, we need reasonable gun control legislation.”

Trump, “in honor of the victims of the tragedies in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, Ohio,” said he ordered the lowering of flags to half-staff at the White House and all Federal Government buildings.

“These are two incredible places. We love the people,” he told reporters. “Hate has no place in our country and we’re going to take care of it.”

The president didn’t say what he planned to do to “take care” of hate.

Trump calls mass shootings 'a mental illness problem'

“We’re talking to a lot of people and a lot of things are in the works,” Trump said Sunday when asked by a reporter what he was going to do about the country’s “gun problem.” “We have done much more than most administrations … but perhaps more has to be done. If you look at both of these cases...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I agree with OP