The 2019 Trump Presidency Thread

[JGrimez]

LOL the local gov't of what RICHMOND VA (for instance) has a RADICAL LEFTIST WING AGENDA?

Some of the cities / localities taking these statues down are remarkably conservative

That day in VA just like at other protests, the police did not intervene when they should have.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

If you live in Virginia IRL for real I'd shit my pants. Rural VA for sure on that Trump train. But I've been to every major city that I can think of (Newport Beach, Blacksburg, Richmond, Fredricksburg, Charlottesville, Harrisonburg, Petersburg, burbs outside DC, more VA rural counties than I care to ever mention) and yeah. When Trump says "Shithole Countries" I think of the political situations in Sudan,..... or the state of Virginia. But trust me none of those cities I mentioned are "liberal". You are insane to spout such lies if that is really what your original position is, that Richmond VA is "liberal".



So glad I escaped from that hell hole.

AM I IN HELL? (yes, we all have been this whole time)
"You said you weren't going to get mad."
I'M NOT MAD, I JUST DIDN'T THINK THIS WAS GOING TO BE THIS COMPLICATED...

That day in VA just like at other protests, the police did not intervene when they should have.

Yes they did, you liar, on the other side of the country I heard about the (three to four) arrests, weapons charges against one individual. Please grow up and get a life.

The VA police are VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY corrupt and like honestly I'd probably trust a Mexican police officer more than one from Virginia. "as they should have" would imply the response was tame or limited (and it might have been); you said "when" implying they reacted late/not at all; they definitely were on the scene and people did get arrested. WTF Are you talking about.

 

[w01fg4ng]

Just a little follow-up:

Two Police Officers Are Fired Over Facebook Post Saying Ocasio-Cortez ‘Needs a Round’

Thank goodness.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Two Police Officers Are Fired Over Facebook Post Saying Ocasio-Cortez ‘Needs a Round’

As well they should be. I don't think anyone can, or has attempted to, argue that they are ok to say this.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

I actually agree with Omar on a few things and I see how the Right have acted hypocritically

Aside from the right being hypocritical about free speech...I'm curious what else you agree with Omar on, or with any of the squad. Care to elaborate?

 

[TheLoveBandit]

The AOC is dumb "jokes" crowd are starting to show their true colors. It reeks of sexism, racism and pure hatred.

^ The AOC is dumb "jokes" aren't actually jokes you know...

This line of discussion probably belongs in an AOC thread, not Trump's. However, the dumb jokes are based on the reality of what she puts out there. The woman is an idiot, and needs to be called out on her unfounded, inflamatory beliefs. There is absolutely no sexism or racism involved - it is purely based on her stupidity, which she has regardless of sex or race. I can see some pure hatred building towards her, and she is earning it.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

W0lf - apologies for a delayed response. I had two rather long responses in draft, but they've been lost. I'll answer from memory.

I was raised there.

I've probably used the term myself. You are missing the point. Language evolves.

Linguistics isn't my forte. In fact, far from it. But I will try to give you one example. without completely fucking it up.

The word, "nigger," was used during slavery in an obviously racist way (to us to today), but back then it didn't look like it to them. In fact, the word was and is still used in a derogatory way without negative consequence in many circles.

...

Which brings me back to my origin point. Do you see the similarities, the theme here? Go back to where you came from, "send her back", "love it or leave it". It's his rhetoric and it's context is racist.

It's his call to the far right and the dog whistle is loud to me, growing up in the south I guess might have something to do with that, "ear".

I get your example, and agree use of the term has evolved over time. I get that it wasn't to them, but was still derogatory. However, I don't particularly like this example, as you point out - it is still generally derogatory, but without negative consequence for some, but not all. Specifically, if a white says it in any context, it is racist. If a black says it in certain context, it has an acceptable meaning. This double standard is an issue for me.

However, returning to our 'Love it or Leave it' point. For me, it has never had racist connotations. Perhaps a limit of my upbringing and experience. So, I ran a quick google search for the origins of the term. In doing so, I wanted to focus on any discussions the preceded the recent tweets to avoid the partisan bias that would exist from both sides.

Wikipedia 'Love it or leave it'

America, love it or leave it", a pseudo-patriotic slogan used against political activists, critics, dissidents and opponents in the United States. The precise origin of the saying is unknown, but it was first popularized by Walter Winchell in defense of McCarthyism during the 1940s and 50s.[2] It became particularly fashionable during the Vietnam War when it was frequently leveled against anti-war protesters[2], made its way onto bumper stickers and into country songs, and helped Richard Nixon become president.[3] Though its popularity and power have waned since then, the expression is still hurled from time to time in disputes over a variety of issues, like anti American domestic policy, claims of white privilege, strong border enforcement, etc.[4] Four socialist Democrat Members of Congress, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ayanna Pressley, Somali born Trump critic Ihan Omar and Palestinian-American Rashida Tlaib, became the latest to be hit with the idiom when President Donald Trump and some of his supporters began asking them to leave if they are not happy in America.[5] [6]

^^Obviously, the last lines were added recently. However, everything before that echoes of conservatives using it but not for racist remarks (it's tough to tell if the 'still hurled...claims of white privilege' is recent or was there before). I don't think it was when I was drafting this response a week ago.


The Public Professor - America: Love it or Leave it? (2013)

That’s been a popular rallying cry of Conservatives well for over half-a-century.

Its peak of popularity came during the late 1960s and early 1970s when Americans divided sharply over the Vietnam war. That, and its kissin’ cousin My country, wrong or right, were common retorts to war protestors. But over the years it’s also been hurled at progressives who have advocated everything from civil rights to renewable energy.

Last year, Michael Sigman offered a brief rundown of some of the phrase’s most iconic usage over the years. Journalist Walter Winchell first popularized it in his defense of Joseph McCarthy’s anti-communist witch hunt. Country music legends Merle Haggard and Ernest Tubb sprinkled it into their lyrics; Tubb even made it the title of a song. New York City construction workers shouted it during their violent riot against anti-war protestors in in 1970, just four days after the Kent State massacre. Today there’s even a Facebook page called AMERICA LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT (all-CAPS).

...

Because America, Love it or Leave it! is just as a horrible sentiment now as it was then. It’s caustic, it’s provincial, it’s xenophobic, and it’s anti-intellectual. In the end, it is a childish rhetorical device easily punctured by the obvious comeback:

No. I’m staying, and I’m working very hard to make America a better place. It is a great place in many ways, but it’s not perfect, because nothing is, and I’m doing my best to improve it.

And that is the most patriotic thing someone can ever do...

^^ Focused on the fact the slogan has long been a cry of conservatives, who at the time of writing the article were working to stop gov't in regards to ACA. In essence, their hypocrisy over a tradition of 'love it or leave it' and yet finding themselves fighting it desperately. However, no mention of racism. There is a comment to it being xenophobic, but not racism. Stupidity easily countered, but not racism.

For our Founding Fathers - "America, Love It Or Leave It" What Does It Really Mean? (2011)

Resourcefulness, ingenuity, independence, and personal responsibility were essential to the survival of each new colony established. This same resourcefulness, ingenuity, independence and personal responsibility were evidenced in the gaining independence from England and the settlement of the west in the 1800’s. That is what made America; that is what is meant by “America, love it or leave it”. America was the land people came to hack out a living on their own, a place they came to be the best they could be. The American dream was not one where everything is given to you, it was the opportunity to succeed or fail on your own merits. Sometime in the late 1800’s early 1900’s Americans lost those traits. Americans, as a whole, started relying on the Government.

...

The traits of the pilgrims when they colonized the Eastern Seaboard and declared independence from Britain. The traits of the pioneers when they packed all their belongings into wagons and headed west into a wild unknown and untamed land. These traits were traded in for arrogance, an arrogance that believed everyone should share in the fruits of one mans labor whether they contributed or not. An arrogance that believed everyman should be equal in all aspects. Men are not equal, we are all born opportunities; but it’s what we chose to do with those opportunities that determine our outcome in life. Are not the fruits on ones own labor sweeter then the fruits of another?

So does the phrase “America, love it or leave it” refer to the country, the actual land? Or does it refer to strength, independence and ingenuity that our fore fathers showed when they came to this land?

^^A very interesting read, obviously by someone with strong conservative beliefs. I think the best part was when he took a detour about the Pledge of Allegiance creation and implementation and drove it into socialist ideas gaining gov't support, but the bulk of this link didn't really address 'love it or leave it'. At best, it was a wistful contemplation of Early American drive to survive as we colonized the continent, but has no bearing or reference for question of race. If anything, it ignores race completely. Still, an interesting read (more than I quoted) if someone has the time.

Unraveling the knot - America, Love It or Leave It (2014)

...Some version of ‘If you don’t like it here, go somewhere else,’ is embedded in our national psyche. Almost from the first settlements there were people striking out on their own, and when waves of immigrants came in the 1800s, western territories were seen as a way to relieve the pressure of population and poverty. Go west! the newcomers were told, and they did, by the millions, the leading edge of America’s Manifest Destiny to conquer ‘inferior races.’ (On the left side of John Gast’s famous 1872 painting below, note the buffalo and Native Americans being driven into the darkness by the advance of ‘white civilization’.)
...
Go back far enough, and leaving one place for somewhere else is a big part of who we are and what we came from. It seems a strange thing for a people to have in common and out of which to make a nation, a sense of rootless wandering in pursuit of a new and more promising life, everyone for themselves, getting what you can while you have the chance and then hanging on to it.
...
Not only do we refuse responsibility, but any suggestion of accountability for what America has done is routinely dismissed as outrageous and ridiculous. To be accountable implies a power beyond ourselves great enough to hold us to account, and most Americans are having none of that.

On top of which is the argument that it isn’t fair to be held responsible for something we did not do. But this confuses the ‘we’ that is a group of individuals with the collective ‘we’ that is a nation or a people. If ‘America’ is not the sum of what was done—its history right up to this moment—then what is it? What else is there? Without that, what is there to belong to or feel proud of, to love or, for that matter, to leave?
...

^^Written by someone with a general progressive or liberal view of things, as he reflects on how our sense of pride in America ignores our misdeeds in comparison to a friend of his from Germany who has no such national pride. Bottom line, this seems to be an article more about question if we are to 'Love it' do we not have to accept all the faults we, as a nation, carry in our history? And, if we 'leave it', is there no nation left? The only reference to race, however, appears to be in white men heading west and driving out native Americans, or a single line reference to the black migration north following the civil war and the later return migration in the 2000's. The term itself is not referenced as racist, not does the article in general speak to racism specifically.

Huffpost A Brief History of Loving or Leaving America (2017)

...
3. Commentators who insist that America in 2012 is more polarized than ever must have been either unborn or comatose during the 1960s-early ‘70s. The country was viciously and sometimes violently divided over the war in Vietnam and other issues, and “America Love It or Leave It” was a common bumper sticker. The police riots at the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago, where Mayor Richard J. Daley’s police force brutally beat protesters in full view of TV cameras, made today’s Occupy and Tea Party protests seem like a warm bath.

4. As if to put a coda on the ‘60s, deadly violence erupted from both sides during the first half of 1970. On March 6, three members of the radical leftist Weathermen killed themselves and injured two others when a bomb they were making in a Greenwich Village townhouse accidentally exploded. Two months later, the Ohio National Guard killed four and injured eight unarmed Kent State students shortly after a peaceful rally. Four days after Kent State, a “Hard Hat Riot“ in Manhattan featured hundreds of construction workers confronting a student rally carrying “America: Love It or Leave It” signs.

5. Musically, the ‘70s began with superstar Merle Haggard topping the country charts with “The Fightin’ Side of Me,” which included the line, “America, if you don’t love it, leave it.” For his part, country pioneer Ernest Tubb weighed in with the straightforward “It’s America (Love It or Leave It).” I loved these artists and didn’t want to leave them, but here they were insulting me and my friends and family. (In one sense, at least, things are worse than ever now: Tubb and Haggard were Hall of Fame legends; today’s “Love It or Leave It” jingoists, like Toby Keith and Ted Nugent, couldn’t shine their boots.)

6. “America: Love It or Leave It” exemplifies the “either-or” (or “black and white”) fallacy. Like another ‘50s/’60s slogan, the anti-Communist “Better dead than red,” there are obviously more than two choices. One guy who lived across the hall from me freshman year meant it when he said, “Show me a commie and I’ll kill him.” He eventually found a middle ground, aided by the mind-expanding powers of marijuana and acid.

7. During the ‘60s, warmongers wanted to kick us out. Today, some on the right are suggesting they might pick up their marbles and leave, though they wouldn’t actually have to “go” anywhere. Texas Governor Rick Perry has mused about secession. So has Mr. Sarah Palin, who, it emerged after his wife was tapped to run with John McCain in 2008, had belonged to the Alaskan Independence Party.
...
9. The origin of “America Love It or Leave It” is murky. It was popularized by gossip guru and Joseph McCarthy sympathizer Walter Winchell, who, among other abuses of power, helped keep entertainer/activist/national treasure Josephine Baker out of the country we’re all free to love.

^^Perhaps one of the better links to actually address my intended question of the phrase's origins and use over time. It does show roots in the race riots of the late 60's, but also in protests to many other non-racist protests (anti-Vietnam war protests, for example).

At this point, I'll have to admit I didn't see the racism connections, and admit it is most likely due to not giving enough attention to the race riot era specifically. I'm used to hearing it over the years, primarily from conservative voices, but without racist intent - more a matter of 'deal with it' or 'this is how it is'. Again, this is on par with a parent saying 'because I said so', where there isn't a lot of merit to support the statement. In fact, it should invite more challenges as being against having an open mind and finding the best solutions to a situation.

 

[w01fg4ng]

This line of discussion probably belongs in an AOC thread, not Trump's. However, the dumb jokes are based on the reality of what she puts out there. The woman is an idiot, and needs to be called out on her unfounded, inflamatory beliefs. There is absolutely no sexism or racism involved - it is purely based on her stupidity, which she has regardless of sex or race. I can see some pure hatred building towards her, and she is earning it.

You're right, AOC saying and doing questionable things could be it's own thread, but that's not what I was getting at.

I was only referring to the line the police tweeted, "This vile idiot needs a round"

I really hope that if a thread was made about how stupid she is, similar remarks wouldn't be said, but I won't hold my breath.

The cop's tweet was positively reinforcing Trump's racist tweet. It's really that simple.

 

[w01fg4ng]

W0lf - apologies for a delayed response. I had two rather long responses in draft, but they've been lost. I'll answer from memory.

No problem. I appreciate the discussion. Let me know if I missed a question or concern.

I get your example, and agree use of the term has evolved over time. I get that it wasn't to them, but was still derogatory. However, I don't particularly like this example, as you point out - it is still generally derogatory, but without negative consequence for some, but not all. Specifically, if a white says it in any context, it is racist. If a black says it in certain context, it has an acceptable meaning. This double standard is an issue for me.

You just read my words (I'm a white person), one of which was "nigger." Are you saying that I'm racist for what I typed? If so, please explain as I'm not offended just curious.

Context matters for white people just as much as blacks. Sure, there are differences and discrepancies between the two, but that's the point. We aren't the same. We don't have the same history as black people.

However, returning to our 'Love it or Leave it' point. For me, it has never had racist connotations. Perhaps a limit of my upbringing and experience. So, I ran a quick google search for the origins of the term. In doing so, I wanted to focus on any discussions the preceded the recent tweets to avoid the partisan bias that would exist from both sides.

This is totally understandable to me.

I've probably used the term, "Love it or Leave it" myself, in a very non-racist way, and possibly racist without realizing it as well. The way Trump used it is very much in direct connection with a POC American citizen being told to leave the country. Again, we need context.

Given enough relevance any word can become offensive/racists/whathaveyou. It's not like some God came down and gave us racist words randomly. We made them ourselves and gave the words their power that they have today. That's our fault. And in this case, it's Trumps fault for furthering this type of rhetoric.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

"Has opinion about locale" - not from locale

is meme worthy of that liberal hippie with knitted hat girl. IMO

Just because Virginia has more dem. voter turn out on presidential elections does not make the locale liberal; local/state gov'ts there are very conservative. Glad to hear crickets.

 

[cduggles]

It’s more the “go back to the crime-infested shithole countries you came from” type remarks that bother me. (And yes I’m putting old tweets and new tweets from Trump together.)

 

[TheLoveBandit]

'Beware Of Trump: Keep Out' Signs Placed Along Border

U.S.—In a move to head off potential lawsuits, the federal government has now started placing prominent signs along the border that read, “Beware of Trump. Keep Out.”

“I don’t think a lot of people understand the risks here,” said Ronald Dixon of Border Patrol. “People think they can just hop across the border without consequences, but on this side of the border we have a Donald Trump, and no one is quite in control of what he will do.”

There have been reports of people crossing the border getting hit with tear gas or being separated from their children, so the hope is that the new signs will help people understand that there is a Trump loose and people are taking a huge risk if they come to the American side of the border.

The signs have reduced illegal crossing attempts by 428% already, according to sources.

As for Trump himself, he didn’t seem to understand the controversy and appeared to be happy for all the attention.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

Fox News Defends Decision To Print Words Of Trump In Red

NEW YORK, NY—Fox News executives have stood by their controversial decision to print the words of Donald Trump in red in all news stories and editorials posted to the company's website.

The move, announced earlier this week, makes Fox News the first-ever "red-letter news organization," as every word Donald Trump speaks will be printed in red as a sign of reverence. Executives believe the move will help readers spot when the inerrant words of Trump are being quoted, to help separate them from the ordinary news copy. "We hope it prepares people's hearts and minds to receive the words of the savior," said one Fox News representative.

"We're not really sure what all the controversy is about," said Fox News host Sean Hannity. "And frankly, we think it's a little disrespectful that all these other news organizations haven't taken this step yet. Honestly, I believe this must be Obama's fault, somehow. CHEVROLET! AMERICA! DONALD TRUMP!"

There is no word yet on whether the company will officially begin capitalizing pronouns that refer to Trump, though an insider suggested that change would be "coming soon."

At publishing time, CNN and MSNBC had confirmed they would continue printing the words of Obama in rainbow colors as a sign of his tolerance and love for diversity.

 

[Derschieber]

As I recall, the president said something like "go back to where you came from, go fix the problems in those shit holes, then come back to tell us how it's done".

Just the sort of impulsive, out-of-line thing I might have said lol.

 

[alasdairm]

^ they're u.s. citizens - 3 of the 4 born in the u.s. - where exactly should they go back to?

alasdair

 

[JGrimez]

If you live in Virginia IRL for real I'd shit my pants. Rural VA for sure on that Trump train. But I've been to every major city that I can think of (Newport Beach, Blacksburg, Richmond, Fredricksburg, Charlottesville, Harrisonburg, Petersburg, burbs outside DC, more VA rural counties than I care to ever mention) and yeah. When Trump says "Shithole Countries" I think of the political situations in Sudan,..... or the state of Virginia. But trust me none of those cities I mentioned are "liberal". You are insane to spout such lies if that is really what your original position is, that Richmond VA is "liberal".



So glad I escaped from that hell hole.

AM I IN HELL? (yes, we all have been this whole time)
"You said you weren't going to get mad."
I'M NOT MAD, I JUST DIDN'T THINK THIS WAS GOING TO BE THIS COMPLICATED...


Yes they did, you liar, on the other side of the country I heard about the (three to four) arrests, weapons charges against one individual. Please grow up and get a life.

The VA police are VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY corrupt and like honestly I'd probably trust a Mexican police officer more than one from Virginia. "as they should have" would imply the response was tame or limited (and it might have been); you said "when" implying they reacted late/not at all; they definitely were on the scene and people did get arrested. WTF Are you talking about.

Where did I say Richmond or any part of VA was liberal? How about not misrepresenting my original position? Turns out you are the liar and the one who should get a life for beginning with unwarranted insults (can he be reprimanded by a mature staff member please?).

I saw what went on that day from many angles and different sources. Leftist terrorists started attacking people early in the day and that behavior continued on unabated. I've seen repeated patterns of police seemingly being told to step down when groups like ANTIFA start assaulting people. For eg, the guy who killed that woman in his car, he was being pelted and his car bashed by a group of Leftist terrorists. What would you do if you were fearing for your life with a mob of bloodthirsty, violent people outside your car door that are trying to hurt you? You might even freak out and hit the gas to get away. Where were the cops putting a stop to this violent mob? If they did their job effectively that day, that woman would still be alive.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Which cities were liberal that were trying to take the statues down? Any cities?

Leftist terrorists

what?

You mean people protesting in a democratic fashion?

 

[JGrimez]

Aside from the right being hypocritical about free speech...I'm curious what else you agree with Omar on, or with any of the squad. Care to elaborate?

Not the squad just Omar in particular. I agree when she said Israel has hypnotized the world, and when she said "some people did something" that was a dog-whistle to the people who know that it was Mossad (and a few people in the US government) that were responsible for the 9/11 operation. I also enjoyed when she grilled Elliot Abrams on his past war crimes and I wish she would do more to expose blatant government corruption.

Although unfortunately I get the feeling that her words and actions will simply be used to facilitate the passing of more restrictive legislation (aka controlled opposition).

 

[JessFR]

^ they're u.s. citizens - 3 of the 4 born in the u.s. - where exactly should they go back to?

alasdair

Yeah, far as I'm concerned citizenship is a one of those quirky things that become a right once you have it.

As in, once you're a citizen of any given country, I don't believe the government of that country should be able to unilaterally remove that citizenship under any circumstances whatsoever.

Far as I'm concerned the only valid way someone should be able to lose citizenship is by free choice, and then only if they have at least one other citizenship to prevent statelessness.

And it SHOULD go without saying, but if you have citizenship you should also have a right to reside anywhere within the scope of that citizenship without fear of deportation.

To me any less than all of that is a violation of human rights.

 

[JGrimez]

Which cities were liberal that were trying to take the statues down? Any cities?

Didn't the whole Charlottesville brouhaha begin by protesters and counter-protesters wanting to remove the Robert E Lee statue? I never once said the cities themselves were liberal. I think that this pattern of the police allowing left-wing violence goes much higher up. It's obvious with how the establishment media promotes or covers for them.

You mean people protesting in a democratic fashion?

This is what scares me about the Left. "throwing milkshakes on people is protesting" - no, that's actually assault. Joining a mob and bashing someone's car to the point that they fear for their life and hit the gas - IS NOT DEMOCRATIC PEOTESTING. I hold Antifa and the violent left-wing mobs just as responsible as the Right wingers for the death of that girl.