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Social Justice Transgender and gender identity discussion

nuttynutskin said:
Yes that's what I identify as. Don't mind my beard.
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No you don't and this isn't a thing. You're inventing a strawman(woman?) to attack. Bathroom bills are patently unenforceable and if they were you'd have way more jacked dudes with beards in women's facilities if you forced transmen to go to the bathroom of the gender they were assigned at birth (TRT is no joke). As it stands, the only thing the laws protect women from are the boogeyman of the cis guy that dresses in drag to prey on women in the women's bathroom instead of just walking in like they have since women's bathrooms were invented.
 
Like...even if the entire human race became loony leftist imbeciles raving and ranting in the streets, half naked wearing freaky leather outfits with fluro-green dildos up our bums celebrating non-binary inter-racial non-hetero-normative inter-sectional trans-racial global homo-warming climate-queer gender diversity...

There will still only be two genders among all mammalian species.
 
Factualist said:
No you don't and this isn't a thing. You're inventing a strawman(woman?) to attack. Bathroom bills are patently unenforceable and if they were you'd have way more jacked dudes with beards in women's facilities if you forced transmen to go to the bathroom of the gender they were assigned at birth (TRT is no joke). As it stands, the only thing the laws protect women from are the boogeyman of the cis guy that dresses in drag to prey on women in the women's bathroom instead of just walking in like they have since women's bathrooms were invented.
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I was being facetious but I've heard it said by some that people should be able to identify with whatever gender they want.
 
Personally if a woman who identifies as a man goes into the men's bathroom and I'm in there, I don't care. Whatever, it seems like such a silly thing to make into a big issue. Everybody goes to the bathroom.

Again I wonder why this threatens some people so much, the whole gender vs biological sex thing. People can feel how they want about themselves. It has nothing to do with you. If everyone just stopped caring so much about what other people do, we could just treat everyone equally and be done with it. Instead, people fear and so are angered by what they don't understand and other people get oppressed, and then there's a big pushback when the issues are finally addressed, legislation is passing, people freak out, everybody starts talking all about hate, the pushback goes too far, and we end up with everybody upset. Over nothing. If everyone just minded their own business about stuff that doesn't affect them in the first place, things would be a lot easier.
 
Derschieber said:
Like...even if the entire human race became loony leftist imbeciles raving and ranting in the streets, half naked wearing freaky leather outfits with fluro-green dildos up our bums celebrating non-binary inter-racial non-hetero-normative inter-sectional trans-racial global homo-warming climate-queer gender diversity...

There will still only be two genders among all mammalian species.
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I'm really bored and very drunk and on a bit of speed so I'm going to make the mistake of responding to this shitpost seriously. Not to convince you personally, something tells me that would be a lost cause, but for any on-lookers who might be on the fence.

For one, gender has never meant the same thing as sex[1]. It was specifically used by psychologists to refer to "the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex or the other[2]. The misuse of the word by well meaning scientists who wished to be more politically correct by refering to "gender" instead of "sex" in their studies is largely what caused this confusion. As well as the fact that features which fall under gender (i.e. behavior such as clothing, demeanor, interests, and self-image) are much more outwardly apparent. You can't tell what chromosomes people have just by looking at them (more on this in a moment). The inappropriate use of a word that refers entirely to a behavioral phenomenon in place of one that refers to a biological phenomenon has seriously mislead some people into ignoring the very real differences between the sexes. Most animals don't have a concept of gender as opposed to sex because they don't have the kind of social relationships that humans, primates, and a few other animals have[3]. Same-sex sexual activity is a very well documented phenomenon in the animal kingdom[4], and there's no way to ask an animal if they're doing what they do because they're simply attracted to the same sex or because they feel like the opposite sex. It's also irrelevant.

To return to sex, sex is a bimodal not a binary. What this means is that while typically there are specific traits associated with sex, as we are a sexually dimorphic species, it's not a rigid black or white, one or the other, scenario. Take for instance, androgen insensitivity. This is a condition wherein an individual is born with XY chromosomes but their bodies do not respond to male hormones. This results in an individual being born with mostly or entirely female characteristics and typically a person who is androgen insensitive only realizes this when they reach puberty and do not begin menstruating[5]. So this obviously disproves the notion that sex (and subsequently gender) is determined by your chromosomes, which no serious scientist has ever contended and is only believed by reactionaries with a secondary school level understanding of biology. Those who have androgen insensitivity are part of a larger group known as intersex people. If you define intersex as people who have genital features of the opposite sex as well as individuals who have hormonal and neurological characteristics more resemblant of the opposite sex, as many as 1 in 60 people on average might meet the qualifications of being intersex[6]. If you restrict it to only individuals who have genital abnormalities, that number is about 1 in 1500[7].

Regardless, the existence of intersex people is further scientific evidence which proves the notion that sex (and subsequently gender) is not this rigid, immutable characteristic. Additionally, as is obviously apparent, those on hormone replacement therapy begin to take on the physical characteristics of the sex in which they are transitioning to[7], which further disproves the notion that sex is immutable as even without introducing hormones into the body, levels constantly fluctuate, and many people experience hormone production typically associated with the opposite sex completely naturally, and subsequently they may take on some characteristics of that sex. An important point here is that hormone replacement therapy is the treatment for gender dysphoria a condition in which an individual's experienced gender does not match their sex[7]. As if all of this wasn't enough, the broad acceptance of HRT as the treatment for gender dysphoria is one more nail in the coffin for the idea that gender and sex are the same thing. It simply isn't true.

Now, to tackle non-binary people, as I have a vested interested in this. If gender is an entirely social concept, as we have already established, it follows that there is no reason to think that one could not simultaneously experience characteristics typically associated with one gender while also experiencing those typically associated with another gender. Rather than reducing this experience to epithets such as "tom boy" or "nancy girl", it makes more sense to suggest that these people may experience gender differently than people who are either comfortable with the gender they were assigned at birth or fully identify with the opposite gender[8]. Broadly speaking, an individual may experience that they simultaneous have characteristics of both genders (bigender), do not believe that any characteristic which describes them fits into a particular gender (agender), or believe that their gendered qualities change over time (genderfluid)[9]. Additionally, for millennia, various cultures have recognized the existence of a "third gender" or "two-spirit", and this concept, rooted as it is in complex social circumstances, does not conform to any of these aforementioned identities and represents another unique gender identity[10][11].

Given the colorful language which you used, I have a feeling that we make you very uncomfortable. Maybe it's because we remind you that some of the things you hold dear are in fact relatively meaningless, objectively speaking. Maybe its your social conditioning, having been raised in a society in which prejudice towards sexual minorities was accepted. Maybe it's your desire to put yourself above others by any means necessary. I don't know. I don't really care. I don't know you, you don't know me. Your beliefs have no bearing on my life whatsoever. So why did I take the time out of my life to write all this and find all these sources? One, because I enjoy science and philosophy, this is fun for me. And two because, like I said, I need to inform others, who may have never given this issue any thought, of the objective reality of the situation. You can feel uncomfortable around me, you can hate me, you can wish I didn't exist, I don't care. But that's not a valid argument. Facts don't care about your feelings.

1. https://www.dictionary.com/e/gender-vs-sex/
2. https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00376.2005
3. https://psmag.com/environment/do-animals-have-gender-roles
4. http://www.yalescientific.org/2012/03/do-animals-exhibit-homosexuality/
5. https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome
6. Blackless, Melanie; Charuvastra, Anthony; Derryck, Amanda; Fausto-Sterling, Anne; Lauzanne, Karl; Lee, Ellen (March 2000). "How sexually dimorphic are we? Review and synthesis". American Journal of Human Biology.
7. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182227/
8. https://www.apadivisions.org/division-44/resources/advocacy/non-binary-facts.pdf
9. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201503/none-the-above
10. https://cas.uab.edu/humanrights/2018/10/29/indias-relationship-with-the-third-gender/
11. https://www.ihs.gov/lgbt/health/twospirit/
 
Draven26 said:
But men naturally have higher testosterone than women and this is why when you introduce trans people and gay people
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Sexual preference has little or nothing to do with testosterone levels. Seems like you're more than a bit misguided.
 
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Derschieber said:
There will still only be two genders among all mammalian species.
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What's an hermaphrodite then?

nuttynutskin said:
So I suppose everyone should be ok with me walking into the women's locker room then.
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Its funny the way so many hetereosexual males go straight to this point. The fact that this is seen as a way to exploit women gives me a pretty good insight into why a lot of feminists think masculinity is predatory in its current form.

But yeah, I can see how this instance could cause some problems. Because of the chance that bearded weirdoes pretending to be women are going to invade womens locker rooms, we should limit genders in society to 2 on all fronts. Is that honestly what you consider a compelling argument? What about the host of issues that transgender people suffer that make your bearded mug upskirting a peeing highschool girl seem trivial? :rolleyes:

nuttynutskin said:
I was being facetious but I've heard it said by some that people should be able to identify with whatever gender they want.
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And? How would people idetifying themselves in a certain way impact you directly? Why does it matter?

I think people should be able to identify with whatever gender they want and I see very few real-world problems arising as a result. Your example was a male with a beard pretending to be a woman. That's really tangential to this issue. I wouldn't accept that because I would know its just a bearded dude trying to make women uncomfortable to prove a broader point to transgender people and I'd call the police.
 
So also a random question to 100% heterosexual seriously not gay in any way no sir not at all men ITT: would you rather fuck a transman who was AFAB (so if you were a transphobe, a woman) who looked like Arnold Schwarzenegger with a vagina or a transwoman who looked like Bailey Jay? Gun to your head, "neither" is not an option, which would you choose?
 
Factualist said:
So also a random question to 100% heterosexual seriously not gay in any way no sir not at all men ITT: would you rather fuck a transman who was AFAB (so if you were a transphobe, a woman) who looked like Arnold Schwarzenegger with a vagina or a transwoman who looked like Bailey Jay? Gun to your head, "neither" is not an option, which would you choose?
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Uhh, if simply not having sex with either of them really isn't an option, wouldn't that make this rape? So for anyone who wouldn't do either of them, it's which would you rather be raped by.

That's kinda fucked up, lol.

Eleusis said:
Human sexuality has nothing to do with testosterone levels. Seems like you're more than a bit misguided.
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Uh, human sexuality is a LOT to do with testosterone levels. Testosterone levels is what chemically determines sex during fetal development, and is a primary source of the sex drive.

Sex offenders are castrated specifically to lower their testosterone and their sex drive along with it.

EDIT: I realize someone's probably gonna challenge that testosterone determines sex by pointing at chromosomes. So I wanna say that yes, chromosomes matter too. But for a fetus to develop male you need both, the chromosomes to tell our cells how to respond to testosterone and trigger it's release, and the testosterone itself. If you don't have testosterone AND the chromosomes, you won't develop male.
 
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Look... I don't care what someone wants to be but there's obvious problems when it comes to certain things like a man competing against women in sports. And if anyone can claim any gender they want then why should I not be able to claim to be a woman? Are you trying to exclude me?
 
nuttynutskin said:
Look... I don't care what someone wants to be but there's obvious problems when it comes to certain things like a man competing against women in sports. And if anyone can claim any gender they want then why should I not be able to claim to be a woman? Are you trying to exclude me?
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Go ahead, I'm not stopping you. :)

Welcome to the pink team! :D

As for men competing against women in sports. I gotta admit I don't see that as a particularly severe problem. But that's because I don't think of sports as particularly important. :)

OK in all seriousness now. I don't see a particularly big problem with transgender people using the bathrooms of their choice. Transgender people are usually the victims not the victimizers. And frankly, I just haven't seen much reason to think that all these fears of men abusing that freedom to pose as women and sexually assault women are well founded.

They seem entirely hypothetical and unsupported. If we actually do have rapists posing as women en masse, then it'll be time to start making new laws. But until there's at least some evidence at all that something like that might happen beyond people's imaginations, I say we let transgender people do what they want.

I just don't think it's that big a deal.
 
You'd probably care if you were one of the women getting beat by a man. I think it's easy for the left to just gloss over the idea that there are some problems within the lgbt scene instead of dealing with them.
 
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Factualist said:
You can feel uncomfortable around me, you can hate me, you can wish I didn't exist, I don't care.
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I don't see why anyone would be having those feelings. Thank You for your reply.
There is no shortage of junk science to quote at us. I think we have all seen more than enough of all that.
I am a practical person. Bunsen Burners, Hand tools, Scalpel and Microscope... Hammer and Sickle (lol just kidding)
Seeing is believing. So I shall visit a Dairy Farm. A family's livelihood is depending on the Farmer's ability to be grounded in reality.
He can not afford to be confused or swayed by emotions over questions pertaining to Genders. His survival is at stake. His family is depending on his sound judgement.
He is not playing with ideas online. He is working hard for years on end. He has a wealth of real-life experience.
His experience with biological reproduction, insemination, sex, gender & birth is undoubtedly vast.
So we shall ask Dairy Farmers, regarding Cows. How many Genders do cows have?
We may do it, not because we are confused, nor because we enjoy being looked at like simpletons.
In fact, I probably won't be doing any of that. Asking stupid questions is a waste of time, when everyone already knows the answer.
But you should consider doing so, and come reporting back here, with the answer. You will only get one, no matter how many farmers you ask.
 
nuttynutskin said:
You'd probably care if you were one of the women getting beat by a man. I think it's easy for the left to just gloss over the idea that there are some problems within the lgbt scene instead of dealing with them.
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Problem is though people come up with these hypothetical fears about all sorts of stuff all the time. And quite frequently it turns out to be nothing.

This sure seems like one of those instances to me. If such freedoms (for transgender people to use the bathroom of their choice) were widely abused, then there might be reason to do something. But as it stands it all seems to exist only in people's imaginations.

Doesn't seem like there's any real problem here. Just hypotheticals that you can argue about any course of action. We'd never take any action as a society if we only took action that was free of risks.

I say it's worth a try. It's probably happening under the radar a lot with nobody even realizing anyway. This is kinda a silly thing to argue about given it's largely unenforceable anyway.

I find it hard to see how if a man intends to sexually assault a women, that being able to claim to be a woman legally for bathroom purposes at their discretion is going to change anything.

It's not like they can't find plenty of other opportunities to assault women. Claiming to be a woman and going into a women's bathroom seems like one of the worst options since it still provides witnesses and good Samaritans who could get in the way.

It just doesn't make much sense. If a man's going to attack women there are much less stupid ways to do it.
 
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What are you even talking about? I'm pretty sure you saw the article I posted on the guy winning the women's title in track. Although maybe rare, these things do happen. It's not hypothetical. Just because you don't care about it doesn't mean it's not a problem.
 
I think you mistook what I was talking about when I said beaten. I meant in competition not physically.
 
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