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Christianity & Islam: Are Either of them a Religion of Peace?

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|~~ANT~~| said:


That renders your initial statement meaningless, then.
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Not even remotely, religion is responsible for these things as well. All religion, just because politics also lead to these things doesn't absolve religion of the same.

Sounds alot like you're looking for Islam is evil here though...
 
|~~ANT~~| said:
If politics and religion lead to these things, should we abolish politics?
If capitalism leads to these things, should we abolish capitalism?

How should the world be structured?
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My point is that humanity is violent, were animals... animals are violent, doesn't matter how you structure the world it'll be the same
 
if you would like the answers...

no. no. no, both are; like bptubbs is saying, it's people who choose to ruin it. who says we don't agree with it?!; i think we don't understand it. the cave paintings you speak of. to isolate one thing and take into account an understanding of it is not in and of itself enough to make an altruism that substantiates a universal understanding. he refers to him as father, he is father to all humans and yet is god in human form so wrong context of question.

doesn't matter on accuracy, no one was around back then; it's more important to focus the point into something easily understandable and more substantial. it doesn't matter but let's just say half of the human race back then. let's not assume, it's better to agree on a general understanding to further the conversation. it's not a matter of waiting, it's a matter of pulling ones head out of ones butt (in this case the majority of the human race or this one group) and see the truth of something for what it is. that is directly inaccurate due to the proceeding statement, that is not the pattern that is developing through practice but by every one elses understanding.

again by enlightening one's understanding, opening one's mind and seeing the truth. no, people suck cause god sucks and everything sucks so it is more appropriate to ask which one sucks more; christianity, islam or god (yes F.U.B.A.R., more sarcasm :)) - but wait, there is a silver lining... humans are capable of great things and currently they are proving history true; some people like bptubb's words are proving humanities potential true. isn't that like asking who would you prefer to kill, person a or person b? it's actually commonly referred to as government and i would say humanity cause government and religion do nothing on their own; it takes humans to mess it up. each other, your neighbor or anyone who isn't you basically; everyone does it, some just a lot less than most cause it's part of the learning process. yes. yes. no. no. as a work in progress cause nothing is perfect, just like we shouldn't look at it as should but more of how or what. not exactly, it's more specific. same answer as before.

imo you seem to focused on other peoples words, lil things that get in the way and the scriptures themselves. try expanding your knowledge in other relevant fields of the topic and parts pertaining to it.
 
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why do you think isalm is such a bad religion? because of a general consensus today? because of a few bad apples within the religion?

christianity got much wrong both on the human side and god side of things. does that mean since one was a pedophile and one wiped out entire generations of people that both should be condemned?
 
Just dropping in ANT to let you know I'm probably not the one you want to get into a sparring match with. Not because I'm awesome or intimidating or anything... I just don't respond well to walls of text and endless posturing. I could stay here until Christmas responding point by point but we both know you aren't going to change your mind. That's fine.

I grew up in a southern baptist town, been an atheist my entire life. Spent a lot of time converting others when I was a teenager but eventually grew tired of it when I realized people are going to make up their own mind and there's not much you can do about it. The ones I was successful in converting, they probably would have come to the same conclusion on their own eventually. The ones that wanted to cling to their beliefs did so, and I'm sure they still do to this day.

The only thing I would say, you are going to extraordinary lengths to create this version of Christianity that you subscribe to, and at the same time, deliberately picking apart Islam on a purely literal basis. I've spent hours in other threads making the same basic argument as you...that while all religion is bad, Islam is more dangerous than the rest. But I was approaching it more from a sociological perspective. If you look at both texts literally, they are both very disturbing to the point that attempting to say which is worse is a pretty ridiculous exercise.

I think you've actually put on a very good display of why religion is still so prevalent in our society. It's because you can make it into whatever you want it to be. Instead of just saying hey, these are the ideas and the values I choose to adhere to...you somehow think it's necessary to attribute them to Christianity. Even though I pointed out that every good idea in the Bible can be found elsewhere. Why do you have such an urge to validate these things through this one specific lens?

You actually don't have to answer that. Like I said, this type of conversation is one I would have loved to keep going when I was a little younger...but it just exhausts me now. Feel free to respond however you'd like, though.
 
I don't think I am doing what you say I'm doing. I'm not going to extraordinary lengths. These are things I've thought about before, and I'm expressing them... This discussion is and always has been consensual. I'm not trying to get into a sparring match with you. I don't even know who you are. I just wrote some stuff and you responded by telling me that how I identify religiously is wrong.

Nobody has responded to the bulk of my points, here, and people always say the sort of vaguely dismissive stuff you're saying now. You could refute all my points, but you couldn't be bothered because it's tiresome / pointless / whatever.

why do you think isalm is such a bad religion?
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I've already answered that question, in quite a lot of detail and nobody has responded to most of the points I made. I could elaborate more about why Islam is such a bad religion, but I get the impression that you haven't really read what I already posted and you've already written me off as unenlightened or uneducated.
bptubb said:
Sounds alot like you're looking for Islam is evil here though.
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Isn't it the most violent and evil organisation to have ever existed?
I find it frustrating that it's not socially acceptable to discuss this.
Is everyone too afraid to answer this question?

Nobody has actually said: Yes, it is MUCH worse than Christianity.
Nobody has actually said: Yes, it is the most violent organisation to ever.
Nobody has actually said: No, it is not the most violent organisation ever.

Everybody in this thread is avoiding what everybody always avoids.
And, nobody has responded - at all - to the good the Christian church has done.
you somehow think it's necessary to attribute them to Christianity. Even though I pointed out that every good idea in the Bible can be found elsewhere. Why do you have such an urge to validate these things through this one specific lens?
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You haven't proved that every good idea in the Bible can be found elsewhere. You just stated it as a fact, with zero references. People vaguely suggest this all the time, but it's a convenient assumption. Like I said, I seriously doubt you've read the Avesta... Have you? I've never encountered anyone - on your side of this argument - who has actually bothered to read any of it. There are some similarities. I'm not suggesting that Christianity invented the wheel, but to write off Christianity's impact on modern society by pointing towards Zoroastrianism is silly (I think). It's something you can hide behind, because nobody reading this is going to bother and go read the Avesta and prove you wrong... and because you're not willing to actually break down Zoroastrianism vs Christianity I take it? So, it's very easy to just insist that something is true.

Even if everything in the New Testament occurred in another text - which is not the case - that doesn't actually have any impact on whether or not the book itself was influential. The same as if Stairway to Heaven was entirely plagiarised rather than simply having similarities to the beginning of another song.

I think you want to believe that Christianity has no value. Like I said, I don't know you. It's just an observation that I've made of people in general when trying to initiate a discussion like this, and you fit the bill perfectly... I don't attribute my values to Christianity. I didn't say that. I said I somewhat identify as Christian and I somewhat identify as Buddhist. I also said I think Christianity has done immeasurable good in the world. I think you're reading between the lines and assuming things about me based on a stereotype that you've encountered in the past.
You actually don't have to answer that.
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I know. You don't have to answer this, either. Nor do you have to actually respond to any of the questions I posed... But, if you're not going to do so, I'd prefer it if you don't describe my discussion as exhausting or ridiculous and tell me that I'm not interested in changing my mind. Because, that's not true. Nobody has presented any sensible argument - so far - to convince me. In fact, nobody has really attempted to address the main questions of the thread.
If you look at both texts literally, they are both very disturbing to the point that attempting to say which is worse is a pretty ridiculous exercise.
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I'm not asking you to compare the texts, without considering their impact on the world. I'm not talking about the Qur'an versus the Old Testament as literary texts. I've presented a very clear argument, proving one religion has caused a significant amount more harm than the other. Yet, for some reason, the vast majority of people have trouble admitting that Islam is worse... People blatantly ignore the death toll and continue to blindly insist that they are basically the same. I think this is probably largely due to my audience being Western combined with the (Western) hatred of Christianity.

I'm tired of people lumping Christianity in with Islam and I'm tired of people hating on the church while defending the Islamic church... I'd honestly be happy if people openly hated Christianity as much as they hate Islam... I don't mind people hating on religions or on political systems. It just makes no sense that people don't openly perceive Islam as the political / religious equivalent of communist dictatorships. It's frankly disturbing, because it is a serious threat and a lot of people insist they can't see it.
I could stay here until Christmas responding point by point but we both know you aren't going to change your mind. That's fine.
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That's a cop out. You don't have to respond point by point. At the end of the day, it seems like you are the one that doesn't want to change your mind.

Prove me wrong, if you like and respond (briefly) to these questions:

Is Islam significantly worse than Christianity? Is Islam a much bigger threat to the world?
Has Christianity done a lot of good? Would you much rather live in a Christian country, instead of an Islamic one?

You don't have to respond to a wall of text. Your response could be YES/NO. Or, you could write another six paragraphs about how you could respond to various points but you won't.
 
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invegauser said:
some people like bptubb's words are proving humanities potential true.
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Okay, no offence to him but personally I don't see how he's said anything that remotely qualifies as "proving humanity's potential true"... anyway ... he indicated, sarcastically, that Christianity wasn't a religion of peace. I agree. Buddhism is a religion of peace. But, I don't think Islam or Christianity are neutral or passive enough to qualify... then he said politics were to blame along with religion for atrocities. I agree... Then we got to not giving religion a free pass because of politics. I agree... Finally, that it is human nature to be violent and the structure of society (including politics and religion) are arbitrary. The consequence is inevitably violence... Here is where I disagree. This basically means everything is meaningless. The rate of violence is the important factor, not the inevitability of it. If the rate is declining, we are getting better... If the death toll of Christianity is significantly lower than Islam, that's important. Just as it is important to compare death tolls of communist societies with democratic societies. Christianity is like democracy, it is a part of the structure of our society... and if political systems are responsible along with religious systems, we should keep in mind - when considering Christianity - that socialism has a much higher death toll than Christianity (over 300 per day versus about 20 per day). If I am part Christian, part Buddhist, I don't see much of a difference between myself and Norway (being part democratic and part socialist)... If someone identifies as a democratic socialist, is that a better thing than being a democrat and a Christian?
 
Religion is a middle man between your relationship with God, cut it out and go directly to the source.
 
why get hung up on phrases like "religion of peace"?

religion isn't really about peace - it's about social control and power, for the most part.
there are countless examples of centuries-long sectarian conflicts, holy wars, religious conquests.

if you're looking towards religion for social harmony, i'd suggest that you're looking in the wrong place - especially in the modern world, where people don't spend their whole lives in their ancestral homelands.
religious are ancient belief systems and hierarchies that are sometimes not very good at co-existing with people that don't share their belief systems, but i think that most people (regardless of whatever faith they are born into or led into) are good, peaceful people who go out of their way not to harm others. "human nature" is generally pretty empathetic and kind - religion doesn't actually make much difference in my experience.
 
Political systems are nearly identical to religious except for the spiritual part.

Religion and politics are lumps of personal opinions that often contradict each other within any single frame work. Humans are not enlightened as a species.

The slightly positive side of politics is that people can change opinions without all the religious threats. Arguing politics occasionally can change a person's viewpoint. Arguing religion requires replacement of the base understanding of someone's world view. If you are unable to change your opinion it's often fear that causes this, fear of hell, fear of social stigmas etc. The new testament says perfect love casts out ALL fear.

How does a Christian reconcile their fear of other religious beliefs? Why must the church proselyte?

People want validation to their beliefs so they write (religious texts or posts on blue light), the one point that seems often to get lost is why are we judging each other? Shouldn't we be judging ourselves based on others and working on improving either our mind or our actions toward others?

Jesus said to treat everyone as you want to be treated, imagine you were them and treat them accordingly. If you were them would you listen to a man telling you that your wrong? I think the Christian approach should be lived out not shouted out. Shouting is fun sometimes and blows off excess emotion but it really solves zero.
 
It would be easier to have flexibility (for change) as a religious person if people were more open minded and listened to what you have to say and really tried to convince you rather than writing you off as unfixable and giving you old answers to other people's questions. Same with right wing people versus left wing people, I think... In both directions.

It seems to me like people are taking words out of my statements and going off on tangents with them. I've been pretty direct about what I want to discuss, but apparently we live in a world where you can't discuss it for fear of being labelled an Islamophobe. And, I get that in principal... But, isn't the Islamic church actually a really bad thing? Should we be so diplomatic for fear of racism and white guilt that we don't call a spade a spade?

Isn't Islam really bad?
By a huge margin the worst religion ever?
 
I dunno man, I do not think that the huge population on earth that are Muslim could possibly be following a "bad" religion.

The extremist groups, sects and militias that distort a religion to justify its actions- that is not Islam.

The whole Syrian war and refugee crisis is old now. That's probably why there is a "meh" to this topic, it's been done to death.
 
|~~ANT~~| said:
Isn't Islam really bad?
By a huge margin the worst religion ever?
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Islam is no worse than Christianity. During the Dark Ages in Europe, the Arabian culture with Islam underneath it flourished and provided a pretty great society for men and women alike. Extremists and power mongers have turned it into something bad in some areas today. Same as extremists and power mongers led the Inquisition which was horrific and barbaric, and just the same as the European Imperialists raped and pillaged across the Americas in the name of Jesus. Sociopaths are the problem, as they ever are... sociopaths who pervert any religion or any governmental system to produce more power for themselves.
 
Why doesn't anyone respond to the actual points I made?

It's obviously worse.

Sociopaths are the problem
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Sociopaths are a problem.
I dunno man, I do not think that the huge population on earth that are Muslim could possibly be following a "bad" religion.

The extremist groups, sects and militias that distort a religion to justify its actions- that is not Islam.

The whole Syrian war and refugee crisis is old now. That's probably why there is a "meh" to this topic, it's been done to death.
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In all honesty: did you read what I wrote?
If your attitude is meh, then why contribute?
 
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