If God knows everything, how can there be free will?

[swilow]

I'm sorry to become offended, for maybe I have not made clear, that I am simply repeating that nonsense of which was taught to me by the sisters at my early school; but Mr. Swilow, sir, I have not just registered from nowhere and have been what you call a "lurker" for quite some time, and know of when someone advocates for the Devil; and Mr. Swilow, sir, you are strongly doing such a thing, the angry former Catholic which resides within you is screaming quite loudly much of the time.
.

I read to this point and ignored the rest of it.

Don't just insult me because I have a different opinion to you. That's pathetic.

 

[psy997]

I read to this point and ignored the rest of it.

Don't just insult me because I have a different opinion to you. That's pathetic.

I'm not sure that was an insult, per se. I found jsingh to be surprisingly honest and candid in their confession of bias and imprinted meaning-making, actually.

This seems like a situation where connotation and context is significant, and a lack of shared meaning and values is causing misunderstanding. In the framework of Catholicism, as jsingh named they're interacting from, I would assume it's not really an insult to tell someone they are advocating or acting in alignment with the Devil, instead that it would be more a duty or obligatory speaking of one's "knowing", for the greater good of that person and God. jsingh?

Context is key.

^How can there be choice if the outcome is already known?

I'd love a religious person to actually answer this.

It's nuanced. I'm relatively confident in my ability to express the lack of mutual exclusivity free will and omniscience exhibit through speech and conversation, but not so much in writing. And semi-rushed forum posting at that.

And, I'm not sure I would actually say the outcome is already known, that would be a devastatingly hard point to argue, IMO. A nice statement would be that we have the free will to make decisions and change the future, and, there are archetypal patterns which would be difficult if not impossible to escape. There is some operating principle, or framework to the madness that ultimately limits the possible outcomes and thus subsequently determines them. It's like the erosion experiments with sand and water. You can't guess where the water will go, and yet, if you were to know enough, to know the properties of the sand from the entire box down to the smallest atom, on every level in parallel, you may actually be able to determine how it would erode. God is kind of like that. Which requires the distinction to be made that God is not a singular entity or being, but an animating principle, a creative force, or, a tendency for evolution. In a sense, God only "knows" because God is everything in every moment, so the very essence you existed in as you did this or that, is the very same essence of everything that's ever happened in any way.

 

[swilow]

^Okay, that's a pretty well written explanation, thanks for posting it.

One could say that you are talking about something very different to the notion of an external-creator-god. Your description (which closely mirrors my owm conception of spiritual matters) is perhaps closer to a sort of animism, or a divine essence to existence itself. My argument is never against the Isness idea,but with the illogic of an external observer to a reality where outcomes in our personal lives are preordained but where free will is apparently gifted by this external creative force. I cannot see how an outcome can be set if one gets to choose it. If your choices are set, they are not choices, they are outcomes. It would seem that in this system, our free will is an illusion. No loving entity would create such a persistent and torturous illusion and so I know the loving god does not exist. The thing that does exist does not love or confuse. Rather, you are just part of it. Its impersonal and yet the most personal part of your life.

That said, my own experience has been that regardless of the origin or reality of our will, it is actually very difficult to directly alter the present moment, but one can alter the way in which one relates to the unfolding present moment. You need to persist and repeat to create a trend that builds upon itself to effect the long-term/future present moment, if that makes sense . Change rarely seems immediately available. Its one reason psychedelics are so intriguing, because they suggest a capacity in the mind to massively alter the present and ones relation to it spontaneously, absolutely and permanently.

Its hard to word these things and there is joy in this failing. It is comforting to know there are things I know, but cannot say

 

[JessFR]

God doesn't exist. And thats not comming from anger or remorse. It's just science and common sense. Please don't tear yourself apart internally because of religion. It is unnecessary. Religion was just a way for people to cope with famine, war, plagues, hopelessness and madness thousands of years ago. It gained popularity and political influence over the years and became what it is today. Religion is slowly on its way out in todays age. Just use your common sense and morals. Im sorry to offend you if you are religious or on the fence about it. Thats was not my intention.

I really don't think saying God doesn't exist is particularly scientific. You absolutely can say you don't see sufficient reason to believe in god, that's totally a legit point of view, and one that while I don't myself share, I can completely respect.

But actively saying God definitely does not exist is taking it a little far. You can even say God probably doesn't exist. But ruling anything out absolutely isn't scientific. Once you accept something can't be true you rule out the possibility of being wrong, which is fundamentally opposed to science.

Although I do generally share the view that mainstream religion is almost definitely false. Personally I'm fairly agnostic about God generally, but mainstream religion is pretty obviously man made.

All in really saying here is that absolutely deciding God definitely doesn't exist in any form whatsoever with no room for being wrong isn't scientific. Disbelief on the grounds of lack of evidence, and believing that most likely God doesn't exist is all fine. But saying it's absolutely outside the realm of any possibility isnt much better than being someone who says God absolutely does exist.

 

[swilow]

There's no evidence for or against god regardless. The entire concept is hard to examine with science anyhow.

But the overwhelming lack of evidence for an external deity could be seen as being the same thing as there actually being, objectively etc., no external deity. An inactive observer is equivalent to no observer at all, in terms of effecting reality.

How would one examine the concept of free will with science I wonder?

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ I like the cut of your jib, sir.

I also like that phrase and it makes me happy whenever I get to use it.

I apologize, INVEGAUSER, honestly. Maybe I should have read a few more posts before I made my comment. Yes, I did quote the Bible in another thread. I grew up religious, attending sunday school almost every weekend. I even attended private school requiring me to memorize Bible verses and had to recite them every Monday. My family is very religious. I think the Bible is truely "The Good Book". It teaches the importance of values, morals, ethics, etc. As a child, I found the stories of the Bible taught in Sunday school to be captivating. When I came to my personal realization that God wasn't real I was devistated for years. But over time I overcame that emotion and now I feel I'm a better person. I incorperate what I have learned throughout my life (religion, history, science, whatever) and feel I have a new/better understanding of life. Believe me when I say, The fact that I went more than half of my life as a believer in God, religion is one of the most investigated and scrutinized part of my life (fine, fine tooth comb). That being said, I'm OK with people who find or always had found Christianity their one true religion... it is not my decision to make anyways. I respect my family's decisions and we get along with each other just fine.

Cool, thanks for sharing your experience. I think the Bible is a good book, but it isn't THE good book (nor, indeed, or perhaps even especially, The Good Book). Actually a lot of the stories in the Old Testament seem to me that they try to impart pretty fucked up values. But the New testament is a different story. I think that what Jesus taught was basically the "golden rule", the only one we should need, which is simply to do unto others what you would have them do unto you. Basically, don't be a dick, and love your neighbor. Consider others. I think it's a beautiful message and it makes me a combination of sad and angry when Christians somehow try to twist something so simple and beautiful into something so hateful and destructive.

I guess I feel strongly about it because I, too, grew up Christian, not quite as much as you, in fact I always sort of knew it wasn't real even when I was little, but I did go every week and my mother to this day finds it a very important part of her life (and she's the good kind of Christian too). I have attended a variety of churches as an adult for periods of time, and I have found mostly good people, kind and warm people who will go out of their way to help people, and who have taken the positive teachings of Jesus from the religion.

Anyway I guess that's kinda off-topic, I just wanted to say it.

when apathy rains from the sky, whining is the only sound that echos off the canyon walls, truth becomes the new hate speech and self delusions are what keeps people waking up in the morning and getting on with their day; while society and this planet crumble around them... i simply walk away.

I like this very much, are you quoting something or did that come from your head?

"I ain't havin' that, this is the millennium of Aftermath and ain't gon' be nothin' after that
So gimme one more platinum plaque and f**k rap, you can have it back"

Nowadays everybody wanna talk like they got somethin' to say, but nothin' comes out when they move their lips, just a buncha gibberish and motherfuckers act like they forgot to say hey... how you doing buddy, need some help?

 

[swilow]

No cheese no skis muthafucker.

 

[JessFR]

I already believe that the world is predetermined and that fundamentally free will is an illusion. But it's a satisfactory illusion and the extent to which it is an illusion has no meaningful impact on how we live our lives. So to me it doesn't seem unreasonable to think of this God question in those terms too. That ultimately if God knows everything, we may not have true free will, but the illusion can still be good enough for it to not matter.

Another way you could argue it is that while God can know everything he can also choose not to know everything.

 

[Twentypointfive]

@JessFR You are right. I came off a little a little agressive there. I personally believe God most likely doesnt exist.

@Xorkoth Totally. For the most part, most Christians are polite and giving people. Most of my experience with Christianity was positive.

 

[herbavore]

The idea of an unexpected surprise leads to a belief in the supernatural. Not immediately, but if you follow it logically allowing for no rules of physical reality.

For example. We may, at some point in our future, be able to defy the rule of gravity if we can isolate the particle in charge of gravitational enforcement and control it. If I assume it will happen given enough time, I don't need to understand how, I can still imagine a future where we do amazing things because we have overcome a law of physics.

In my imagination I can make many things possible easily because I've removed a single law, despite not knowing the mechanism, I can imagine results. Since every action taken by a human always begins with imagination it doesn't matter to my brain that there is a law I can't break between reality and my imagination, I can apply my logical belief that we will overcome gravity and nonsense makes sense in my mind.

So I see free will as being dependant on my imagination, if I can't imagine a better solution to today's problem and I just succumb to the drudgery of life I have lost my free will and with it most of the joy of life. The result for me has been to see only 1 important issue and Xorkoth already hit it, now every choice is about US when it used to be just about me. Somewhere in my life I made a choice to reprioritize the importance of things, it seemed like a single choice but I make it 100 times a day. When i stop choosing me and I choose US instead life improves parabolically.

We live in a Society where we can make virgin births a regular thing and we can control the genetic make up of our next generation. Fables and myths become reality as we progress with knowledge and understanding but we will always lead the way with imagination. Limiting your imagination limits your future. The hard part of imagination is knowing when to let go of the silly bits and not let go of the true parts those silly bits were built on, just because we can imagine it doesn't make it real but if we don't imagine something better we certainly won't get there accidentally.

I love this post. Lately I have been thinking more and more about imagination and how important it is. I have been thinking a lot about it even in terms of addiction recovery. The world right now (and I'm sure in many other points in history) particularly marketing fatalism and fear. Fatalism, having preconceived rigid thinking about the future, may seem like imagination but I think it is actually like a wet towel thrown on the flame of imagination. Imagination is the lifeblood of creativity. Creativity is the enthusiastic willingness to enter possibility, to be led by a process rather than focused on a preconceived outcome.

 

[Xorkoth]

You're absolutely right herby. Imagination is important in every aspect of life. It's why I feel that it's of extreme importance to having a satisfied life to tend your inner child, which is really more just a state of being questioning and open and curious and honest. Trying to always look at the world through new eyes. What we imagine for ourselves becomes our reality. Perhaps not everything we imagine for ourselves, but if we don't imagine it, it won't happen.

No cheese no skis muthafucker.

Are you telling me that you'll give me some cocaine in exchange for aged cultured milkfat?

 

[swilow]

I am absolutely telling you that. Or yoghurt.

 

[Xorkoth]

I am absolutely telling you that. Or yoghurt.

PM me I got that 'gurt in my fridge with your name on it.

 

[swilow]

Oh yeah chilled bacterial clusters yeah.

 

[Xorkoth]

I had to give it up, it's the only one I can't handle myself on.

 

[Grace&Rest]

Speaking from a Christian (the God of Israel - Abrahamic) POV...

"PRE-DESTINATION" (which is the misquoted and therefore misunderstood term)
was the Original Creation Manifestation of Adam as a Spirit being or 'Elohim' .
In the Apocryphal Book of Adam and Eve you get the Backstory to the original sin and fall - which was being turned from pure spirit into an "animal", but with an innate spiritual core/soul/mentality, which is the ability to recognize Father God.
This is not just the 'sentient' proclivity which all animals have - to a certain extent - it is recognising the 'TRUTH' in Father God.
... ie... we were predestined to be Sons and Daughters of the Living God ... if we choose to be

The FREEWILL is given to us to either act upon this, and become attached to Father God, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ... or not.

Because Father God is outside of time (he made it purely to mark the 5500 days until Jesus Christ came...ref. Apocryphal Book of Adam and Eve, again)
He knew the choices that we would make.

However, having said this ... he will give us EVERY chance that He can to bring us back to be reconciled with Him through the Holy Spirit.
This was the whole reason for why Jesus Christ Came, died and was resurrected.

The New Will and Testament starts in the Book of Acts.
It is fitting that I am writing this response on Pentecost Sunday!
God Bless

 

[Dancing Phantom]

I believe He wants us to have that free will because He himself has free will. For the standard Bible, God made man in his own image. The other is God is not bound by time. So, in theory, God pops in and out of our timeline.
We make all the choices, but He can be anywhere at anytime and knows because He has seen it. We ultimately write out our lives.

 

[Nixiam]

But here's the thing yeah? Free will is *said* to be given, but it isn't actually. If we take the word, trust the word is divine and correct, god is credited as having "omniscience".

The problem with having the capacity to literally know everything is that, what is known becomes what is, what was, and what is going to be ?

I couldn't disagree more with the notion that god gave anyone free will because the very same book takes the stance that the only will that could EVER manifest an outcome is the will of god. I mean, this is made apparent in a number of books, including Job, John, Luke, Psalm, Hebrews, Romans, etc etc.

I'd like to see some actual theological explanations, perhaps missing translations or incorrect ones discussing god's know it all attitude.

But because god knows everything, then everything is set. And if everything is set, nothing is free. And if nothing is free, nothing is sovereign. And if nothing is sovereign, then literally no deviance is the responsibility of the individual.

Even Christian commentators, educated, studious Christian commentators take issue with disposing the contradictory nature of this piece of inane literary blunder repeated several times in the holy books.

TL;DR, the choice you make isn't your choice because omniscience literally prevents that. He can be in a different timeline, universe, whatever. At the end of the day, if he knows you're going to select an Ace of Spades from a magician's hand, then you will not be free to select a Queen of Hearts.

 

[Xorkoth]

But what if he just knows what you will choose? Didn't you still choose, even though the outcome was known? You could go back and forth about it in innumerable ways but it was still a choice.

 

[JessFR]

But what if he just knows what you will choose? Didn't you still choose, even though the outcome was known? You could go back and forth about it in innumerable ways but it was still a choice.

What exactly is a choice? If I had a document in my possession right now, that detailed everything you will do for the rest of your life. Every choice you will make and why. Then are those choices you will make in the future truly yours? Or is it just an illusion. And if it's an illusion, is it a satisfactory illusion? Is it still a choice?

You don't get to see the file. In this hypothetical, the file exists, I have it, I can read it. But I won't or can't tell you anything it contains. So, I know exactly what you will do, but won't or can't tell you anything that might potentially allow you to alter that choice. Is it still a choice?

Obviously I have my own opinions, but I'm curious what others think.

In my opinion, reality really actually is predetermined. And choice and free will in fact is just an illusion. But, it's a satisfactory illusion, and it doesn't bother me that the choices are, in my opinion, ultimately all already decided and impossible to change.