-
OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic
Benzos Strongest muscle relaxant: Clonazepam vs Diazepam
- Thread starter AA357
- Start date
Jekyl Anhydride
Bluelight Crew
I've received a couple different reasons from Sam's like, "we're being proactive to help with the opioid crisis" type reasons. I've been a customer for 12 years and have never had any issues but was told 6 weeks ago that they could no longer fill my prescriptions due to their new 7 day opioid policy. I'll let you know when I find out more.
OT: Where's Lorne??? to fill us in on subunit selectivity differences between Diazepam and Clonazepam.
I'm borrowing this from Mr Root but it seems to show Diazepam as a clear cut winner in the muscle relaxant department,
Last edited:
Speed King
Bluelighter
Have you tried medicinal cannabis yet? I have pain issues also and that helps me.
I beg to differ on the diazepam/ benzos not working. If dosed and used correctly, diazepam relaxes you. By itself, it may be impractial, but other medicine that a doctor would have to perscribe, it would definately stand out. Technically it is a muscle relaxant!
Im a daily user of diaz and clonaz (but have used almost every benzo under the sun at some stage )
1.Diazepam=Better muscle relaxant
2.Clonazepam= Better for general/social anxiety, but im actually prescribed it for RLS and the Diazepam for the anxiety.
Also- if its simply *MUSCLES*- Baclofen beats any benzo. However, The added mental relaxation with Diazepam mixed with its MR properties i would choose that over baclofen as its a nice overall relaxation.
1.Diazepam=Better muscle relaxant
2.Clonazepam= Better for general/social anxiety, but im actually prescribed it for RLS and the Diazepam for the anxiety.
Also- if its simply *MUSCLES*- Baclofen beats any benzo. However, The added mental relaxation with Diazepam mixed with its MR properties i would choose that over baclofen as its a nice overall relaxation.
Jekyl Anhydride
Bluelight Crew
Would be interesting to hear from anyone who's ever come across Tetrazepam. It's highly praised and shows well in the above graph.
I have taken tetrazepam a lot of times. Here in Spain tetrazepam had the brand name Myolastan and was in 50mg tablets and was used as muscle relaxant. But a couple years ago tetrazepam was removed from the spanish meds due to skin type side effects and now is not marketed here. Tetrazepam doesn't cross the BBB as well as other benzos but it has some sedative, anxiolytic and hypnotic effects but very low.
Jekyl Anhydride
Bluelight Crew
Would you rate the Muscle Relaxant efficacy fairly high? Like Baclofen or carosoporadol high?
Lorne???
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- May 3, 2014
- Messages
- 2,558
^ Better
Clonazepam has a binding affinity that is literally 25-50x higher than Valium (dzp) for GABA-A receptors, and is generally longer lasting. It also has higher affinity for less common subunits which would lend it (seemingly) better muscle relaxation proporties
Of course, Valium is commonly used, however That is probably because it is older and also more effective with acute dosing, as it hits rapidly and is typically relaxing - overall thought, combined with a a regimen as Speed King (our colleague
) said, clonazepam is the clear winner from a pharmacologic standpoint; tetrazepam, though, it’s like it was made to be a souped up version of cyclobenzaprine - gamers, it is like shin Akuma/Akuma or comparing a knight/Paladin to a fighter; so much so that tetrazepam Would? Likely be impractical for other Benzodiazepine purposes, expect for muscle relaxant and sedative/hypnotic
It is subjective of course between people, well at least with Valium/clonazepam comparisons
And Jekly, I always heed the benzo bat symbol, and the call for harm reduction, and more mostly, your calls
Clonazepam has a binding affinity that is literally 25-50x higher than Valium (dzp) for GABA-A receptors, and is generally longer lasting. It also has higher affinity for less common subunits which would lend it (seemingly) better muscle relaxation proporties
Of course, Valium is commonly used, however That is probably because it is older and also more effective with acute dosing, as it hits rapidly and is typically relaxing - overall thought, combined with a a regimen as Speed King (our colleague
) said, clonazepam is the clear winner from a pharmacologic standpoint; tetrazepam, though, it’s like it was made to be a souped up version of cyclobenzaprine - gamers, it is like shin Akuma/Akuma or comparing a knight/Paladin to a fighter; so much so that tetrazepam Would? Likely be impractical for other Benzodiazepine purposes, expect for muscle relaxant and sedative/hypnotic It is subjective of course between people, well at least with Valium/clonazepam comparisons
And Jekly, I always heed the benzo bat symbol, and the call for harm reduction, and more mostly, your calls
aspiringchemist
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2015
- Messages
- 453
Wow that's the first I've heard of that. That's ridiculous IMO. I take prescribed diazepam and vyvanse daily and have for years. Sorry you have to deal with that, seriously. I would be rather upset if my pharmacy said something like that.
I know medicare and medicaid are enacting new policies (or already have) regarding coverage of scheduled medications and I think something about prior authorizations for scripts exceeding 7 days. idk what kind of insurance you have but I would hope that private insurance companies wouldn't be affected by that. I have witnessed providers base their prescribing practices on medicare/caid rules regardless of patient insurance; I work in healthcare and closely with psychiatrists.
my bad on derailing the thread. that just shocked me.
Last edited:
Jekyl Anhydride
Bluelight Crew
It's a complete circus as some pharms try to get political, but even the ones who don't won't fill a new script for the heavier CII meds anymore if you aren't an existing customer.
Yeah I pay cash so none of that included insurance hurdles. Another strange thing is that they had to call to verify my electronic prescription but only for Roxi 30's and not for something heavier like Fent or Oxymorphone??. That and E scrips are nearly impossible to forge. Anyway HERE's a good thread regarding this subject.
OT:
For Lorne's above post, I'm wondering why the German's found Diazepam to be such a better "muskelrelaxierend" than Clonazepam?
Lorne???
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- May 3, 2014
- Messages
- 2,558
^ Well, they didn?t exist in WW2, I dont know much about German medicine beyond that; Though, you implied it was a past tense thing; they may not have fully understood how to utilize Clonazepam?s potential in that(and other) regards, it?s very unique among Benzodiazepines
For Acute Muscle Relaxation, Valium would be, IMO, the winner by and far; I should have said that. It hits rapidly, is generally relaxing, and less prone to side effects than the Nitro benzodiazepines in general, and just better as a ?starter? or acute medication for non-tolerant individuals (Old school Germans!)
(Just kidding w/ the above line Seriously don?t flame me or think me the least bit xenophobic! Or any phobic, well except maybe aquaphobic)
What I mean is, someone who doesn?t really take benzodiazepines, well at least not seriously, ~10mg-20mg DZP is going to be more effective than the general ?equivalent? acute clonazepam doasage of 0.25-1ng clonazepam, and, not really any chance of it taking 2 hours for relief(Clonazepam, at least the 1ng dosage, would hold longer, though not really enough to be sure it?s a true or significant advantage for these purposes at least; even clonazepam needs time to build to really gain it?s duration and even then it?s kind of like methadone, the way MMT patients usually can?t dose once per day, at least it wouldn?t be practical unless they are also an addict or have a fairly large tolerance (at least in relation to (presumably) non - malignant chronic pain) then 2-3 smaller doses is found to be more effective (although I think a large dose and then a smaller dose 8-12 hours later, like split dosing in MMT, should be utilized (more frequently) unless patient is on quite a ?low? dose of methadone, like 5-10mg tid (although 30mg Chronic Methadone is roughly equivalent to ~80mg coy per day, not really ?low?, not in my book(and I took way more than that, I just realize we?re not normal *** )
Well I have gone on too long, just wanted to clarify that - benzodiazepines would rarely be used for chronic muscle relaxers alone(or even combined w/ something else more ?typical?) except PRN, so that puts a big notation mark on my ramblings, however say 2-3ng class clonazepam per day SEEMS from most criteria the better option than 40mg Valium; then again that is an unfair comparison, it would take slightly more Valium to equal even that much clonazepam, and more than 50mg per day seems uncommon(not at all super rare, although fairly uncommon as they normally switch to another benzo if 10-20mg 3-4x daily isn?t cutting it)
Again those doses aren?t too bad, just not ?Normal? so in fairness I wasn?t really taking that into account - obviously getting someone smashed on a high potency benzo would probably temporarily ?fix? a lot of problems- so I stand by my observations though am putting that out there
For Acute Muscle Relaxation, Valium would be, IMO, the winner by and far; I should have said that. It hits rapidly, is generally relaxing, and less prone to side effects than the Nitro benzodiazepines in general, and just better as a ?starter? or acute medication for non-tolerant individuals (Old school Germans!)
(Just kidding w/ the above line Seriously don?t flame me or think me the least bit xenophobic! Or any phobic, well except maybe aquaphobic)
What I mean is, someone who doesn?t really take benzodiazepines, well at least not seriously, ~10mg-20mg DZP is going to be more effective than the general ?equivalent? acute clonazepam doasage of 0.25-1ng clonazepam, and, not really any chance of it taking 2 hours for relief(Clonazepam, at least the 1ng dosage, would hold longer, though not really enough to be sure it?s a true or significant advantage for these purposes at least; even clonazepam needs time to build to really gain it?s duration and even then it?s kind of like methadone, the way MMT patients usually can?t dose once per day, at least it wouldn?t be practical unless they are also an addict or have a fairly large tolerance (at least in relation to (presumably) non - malignant chronic pain) then 2-3 smaller doses is found to be more effective (although I think a large dose and then a smaller dose 8-12 hours later, like split dosing in MMT, should be utilized (more frequently) unless patient is on quite a ?low? dose of methadone, like 5-10mg tid (although 30mg Chronic Methadone is roughly equivalent to ~80mg coy per day, not really ?low?, not in my book(and I took way more than that, I just realize we?re not normal *** )
Well I have gone on too long, just wanted to clarify that - benzodiazepines would rarely be used for chronic muscle relaxers alone(or even combined w/ something else more ?typical?) except PRN, so that puts a big notation mark on my ramblings, however say 2-3ng class clonazepam per day SEEMS from most criteria the better option than 40mg Valium; then again that is an unfair comparison, it would take slightly more Valium to equal even that much clonazepam, and more than 50mg per day seems uncommon(not at all super rare, although fairly uncommon as they normally switch to another benzo if 10-20mg 3-4x daily isn?t cutting it)
Again those doses aren?t too bad, just not ?Normal? so in fairness I wasn?t really taking that into account - obviously getting someone smashed on a high potency benzo would probably temporarily ?fix? a lot of problems- so I stand by my observations though am putting that out there
Klonopin came to the market in the mid 1980's, so yes it didn't exist in that time period. What did exist, however, were barbiturates. And despite how deadly they can be, they do tend to work better for anxiety and so on than benzodiazepines. Yet it would be foolhardy to prescribe them, outside of perhaps phenobarbital for seizures, in this day and age.
What one doctor seemed to suggest is that euphoric effects of Valium precede the dose that is therapeutic, whereas this dynamic isn't true with regards to Klonopin.
Ironically, it was the Nazis that invented methadone, as a painkiller to use if they were cut off from the Middle East (which they of course eventually were).
What one doctor seemed to suggest is that euphoric effects of Valium precede the dose that is therapeutic, whereas this dynamic isn't true with regards to Klonopin.
Ironically, it was the Nazis that invented methadone, as a painkiller to use if they were cut off from the Middle East (which they of course eventually were).
Jekyl Anhydride
Bluelight Crew
How did we get back to WWII & Nazis lol??? That chart isn't very old at all, But yeah Zee German's are pretty dam good when it comes to the pharms, I mean Merck, Abbott, Bayer, GlaxoSmithKline, Gr?nenthal, Pfizer, Roche, Sanofi , etc. Many have established themselves in the states as well so I think they're up to speed on things. I just don't see a reason why that chart would be wrong... or from the 1940's ha ha.
Muscle relaxant potential is in blue.
Muscle relaxant potential is in blue.
Lorne???
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- May 3, 2014
- Messages
- 2,558
Lorazepam is in second place on that chart, and it has a gradual onset, and is more “neutral “ Benzodiazepine
That chart alone isn’t evidence w/out knowing how they put it together (So says Jugde Lorne, it is inadmissible! Pendind a frie hearing to determine evidentiary value (gavel bangs)
Lorazepam in second place (excluding tetrazepam) and dzp being exponentially higher than most doesn’t make sense, considering subunit selectively, it’s low binding affinity (Lorazepam’s is several times higher, clonazepam ‘sis over ~40x higher) so it’S just a bit too out of place and context. Interesting though what basis did they put it together? The Anglio anti-anxiety potential of clonazepam is the second lowest! Yet it’s used for a reason in severe forms of panic disorder and anxiety - worse than Tranxene, a partial agonist, or freakin oxazepam, one of the only Benzodiazepines that is just plain slow-acting and slower than clonazepam or PO lorazepam?
Sorry dont expect perfection though it’s way offfield in some areas. Lorazepam has the second lowest anti-convulsant activity... multiple studies have proven it is more effective with both a single dose and multiple doses than valium, so yeah... That’s a lot of glaring misinformation. Just saying
That chart alone isn’t evidence w/out knowing how they put it together (So says Jugde Lorne, it is inadmissible! Pendind a frie hearing to determine evidentiary value (gavel bangs)
Lorazepam in second place (excluding tetrazepam) and dzp being exponentially higher than most doesn’t make sense, considering subunit selectively, it’s low binding affinity (Lorazepam’s is several times higher, clonazepam ‘sis over ~40x higher) so it’S just a bit too out of place and context. Interesting though what basis did they put it together? The Anglio anti-anxiety potential of clonazepam is the second lowest! Yet it’s used for a reason in severe forms of panic disorder and anxiety - worse than Tranxene, a partial agonist, or freakin oxazepam, one of the only Benzodiazepines that is just plain slow-acting and slower than clonazepam or PO lorazepam?
Sorry dont expect perfection though it’s way offfield in some areas. Lorazepam has the second lowest anti-convulsant activity... multiple studies have proven it is more effective with both a single dose and multiple doses than valium, so yeah... That’s a lot of glaring misinformation. Just saying
Jekyl Anhydride
Bluelight Crew
I'll get to the bottom of the chart and the protocols they used I just have to finish learning german first. Without any defined metric for each category we don't know the actual difference (except for mm of color, the preferred way to quantify effects ) . Say Lorne??? do you have any good sources for subunit selectivity? The usual suspects as in the a's and any B or Y2 secondary for maybe Diaz & Clonaz to start? We might as well lay down some excerpts from citeable sources.
) . Say Lorne??? do you have any good sources for subunit selectivity? The usual suspects as in the a's and any B or Y2 secondary for maybe Diaz & Clonaz to start? We might as well lay down some excerpts from citeable sources.
Wilson Wilson
Bluelighter
It seems we have similar taste in benzos. I love diazepam and temazepam and find alprazolam to be extremely overrated.
As for why there's conflicting reports, it's simply because people react to drugs differently.
I get not much muscle relaxation from clonazepam while a mate of mine who actually needs benzos for that exact purpose finds clonazepam helps his muscle pain a lot, more than temazepam. He also gets reasonable muscle relaxation from alprazolam and lorazepam.
Personally I notice the strongest muscle relaxant properties from diazepam, temazepam, bromazepam, and lorazepam.
The only way to find out how clonazepam effects you would be to try some. I have a fondness for clonazepam it has to be said. It has a "buzz", doesn't cause too much sedation, is easy to function on, and obliterates anxiety. My only issue with it is that it's very good at wiping my memory.
Lorne???
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- May 3, 2014
- Messages
- 2,558
Egh I'll try - I had access to a paper with binding affinities and useful info, and alas
Subunit selectivity seems to be listed relative, that is "highly selective " vs "low " selectivity for say, A3
BL had a post, I think with references somewhere
How dare you not know German! And me too, �� ugh !!!! Yes it must be the colors
Try to find a citeable source, you have any others you know what to do (this msg may explode, eventually. Probably not though
Subunit selectivity seems to be listed relative, that is "highly selective " vs "low " selectivity for say, A3
BL had a post, I think with references somewhere
How dare you not know German! And me too, �� ugh !!!! Yes it must be the colors
Try to find a citeable source, you have any others you know what to do (this msg may explode, eventually. Probably not though
Speed King
Bluelighter
Quoting my friend so he is notified he has been quoted!
I have been taking 40 mg of Valium a day for ?. I saw my doctor and asked if I could give some receptors sub units a break and switch benzodiazepines.The doctor tried giving me 0.5mg Klonopin, but I managed to get 3mg of Klonopin perscribed.
Naturally I took some to compare the subjective effects and differences between the two medications.
I feel if one were not tolerant to either drug, Valium/diazepam would still be a better muscle relaxer.
Klonopin/clonazepam relaxes muscles also, until tolerance builds up. Don't get me wrong, it was a nice heavy duty benzodiazepine which I havn't had in quite a while. However, I remember switching to Valium, because the Klonopin wasn't working all that well. At that point, Valium kicked Klonopins ass in my head, due to tolerance. I gave it a long rest and the Klonopin feels stronger currently.
I think the Valium is weaker by weight, but produces more muscle relaxant qualities. This is all purely subjective. YMMV !!!
Wilson Wilson
Bluelighter
I notice the same kind of effect tolerance wise. Even though diazepam isn't potent on paper, the fact it hits all the receptors means if you've only been using more selective benzos for a while the diazepam feels real strong.
Speed King
Bluelighter
Yes. That was part of it. Were you also refering to the fact that Valium/diazepam hits "all those the receptors" also meaning that it, on paper, would be the better muscle relaxant?