US Politics The Mueller Investigation - report is out

[spacejunk]

"Freedom of speech" innit?

 

[JGrimez]

I said that the flag desecration may be legal, my question was is it a good idea and the absolute best way to get a message across
And if you're fine with the freedom to protest then you should also be fine with speech critical of the protest.
Nobody is saying that these guys have no right to protest, just that it wasn't well thought through.

On topic, if McCabe is angry about being fired he should leak the most damaging information on Trump that the FBI has compiled so far
Was the Mueller probe the 'insurance policy' that Stzrok and Andy had planned in case Trump won
Did Mccabe and Comey deserve to get fired? They both -

leaked knowingly classified material to the media
lied under oath in sworn testimony

The FBI recommended Mccabe be fired.

 

[JGrimez]

Kneeling during the national anthem is hardly disrespectful of the country or the flag.

Many people disagree, on both sides. For some people it's offensive on a deep level, as some view the moment as a rare unifier

 

[zephyr]

I dont really understand why there is an investigation after the fact and dont understand how its possible anyone with literally no experience in politics ar all can have the ability to become a President .

Surely common sense would prevail and the risk a person who has a lot of private buisness dealings with a lot of countries including Russia would be too high to let him be a presidential nominee.

Its really strange. Hes the President now and its too late. Whatever was done wil be just blamed on inexperience or not being aware what exchanges were done arent anything different to anything Hillary did or other election shenannigans.

Its a huge amount of money and the investigation should just be kept on the doen low until whatever the conclusion is.

Theres no point in investigating it and finding all the dirty little secrets then keeping them secret. Just a public showing of the conclusion so it'll be known before the next one.

 

[Tubbs]

I always thought it was weird they let him run, he's an international businessman, he has literally dozens of conflicts of interest. A president should be somewhat unbiased, there is literally no possibility that his business ventures aren't influencing his actions.

 

[alasdairm]

Is this the best way to protest?

talking about the importance of freedom then getting bent out of shape when somebody does it in a way that you don't like is called paying lip service...

the idea that to not stand while the national anthem is playing shows a lack of respect for, or allegiance to, the nation is just simplistic, not to mention lazy. also, it's just not binary and reminds me of bush's famous "if you are not with us, you're against us". i'm a myers-briggs estj so, believe me, i get seeing the world in black and white, but the issue is not black and white - there are hundreds of shades in between.

in a healthy relationship, criticism and admonishment are as fundamental as love, if not fundamental elements of love. what would be unpartriotic would be for him to not do what he's doing out of some unexamined sense of 'patriotism'.

as trevor noah astutely asked a few months ago, how else was he (kaepernick) supposed to send his message? what was the right way? send a tweet? nope, that's the refuge of the lazy and the superficial. pivot to the issue in a post-game interview? that would have been, for many, more respectful (and he'd likely still have been criticized for it).

he's an athlete so, given his inability to wear, say, a shirt with a protest message, he silently knelt during the national anthem. saying he's spitting in the face of the military by doing so is, to me, mock outrage.

so, if marching is bad. if assembling is bad. if quietly kneeling is bad. what is the 'good' way for him to protest? what use is a protest that is so antiseptic it gets no attention?

alasdair

 

[JGrimez]

talking about the importance of freedom then getting bent out of shape when somebody does it in a way that you don't like is called paying lip service..

I cannot help if I'm offended by something. But even if it offends me I'm still going to let the person say whatever they want to say

the idea that to not stand while the national anthem is playing shows a lack of respect for, or allegiance to, the nation is just simplistic, not to mention lazy. also, it's just not binary and reminds me of bush's famous "if you are not with us, you're against us". i'm a myers-briggs estj so, believe me, i get seeing the world in black and white, but the issue is not black and white - there are hundreds of shades in between.

Exactly hundreds of shades, so what does an NFL game have to do with police brutality?

as trevor noah astutely asked a few months ago, how else was he (kaepernick) supposed to send his message? what was the right way? send a tweet? nope, that's the refuge of the lazy and the superficial. pivot to the issue in a post-game interview? that would have been, for many, more respectful (and he'd likely still have been criticized for it).

I dunno, go to the inner cities and pump some of his millions into programs, or at least take time to educate some youth who are lost and need direction.
Or how about deciding to publicly go after police protocols. Or pushing that police are properly trained before put on duty. Repeat that same stuff day after day on every sports interview he does. Sure he'll be criticized that's what happens when you protest or become an activist, but he will also be reaching millions of people, and most importantly without having to anger a huge amount of people that value respect for the unity of the nation (or just standing and being silent for the anthem).

he's an athlete so, given his inability to wear, say, a shirt with a protest message, he silently knelt during the national anthem. saying he's spitting in the face of the military by doing so is, to me, mock outrage.

Do you care about how other people feel or not? Just because you consider it mock outrage doesn't mean that some people aren't deeply offended by not showing respect to the anthem and flag. People did die for that flag in the minds of a lot of people, with many having known someone personally. I personally don't care if he kneels but I do find it disrespectful and I reserve the first amendment right to tell him that it's a bad idea. His protest was not clear enough, a lot of people had no idea what he was even protesting, they just see this guy kneeling who looks like he hates America. Optics.

 

[spacejunk]

Do you care about how other people feel or not?

I care a lot more about how people feel about things which impact human lives (police brutality etc) than i do arbitrary "offence" taken at abstract concepts like "respecting the national anthem".
I guess i'm more likely to take those sorts of arguments seriously when the respect goes both ways. In other words, i think the right to peaceful protest is far more important than subservience to one specific idea of "respect" for a flag, anthem or other symbol.

I dunno, i've always kind of agreed with this:



I'm pretty keen on protest - when appropriate - and democracy and shit, and honestly "taking a knee" seems pretty dignified and respectful to me.

Like... America at it's best.

As opposed to reactionary, resentful or fearful.
They made a point, didn't hurt anyone - and i think there's something beautiful about that.

nothing got burned, nobody got clubbed or kettled or tear-gassed - and the flag is fine, as is the game that follows the nation anthem.
much ado about nothing, in my opinion.

 

[JGrimez]

^ I love Alex Jones' old stuff

I care a lot more about how people feel about things which impact human lives (police brutality etc) than i do arbitrary "offence" taken at abstract concepts like "respecting the national anthem".

In your subjective opinion. Some other people who do no harm feel differently about it. Symbolically the US flag is almost like a gravestone for a lot of people. Their son wanted to protect the country. Went off fought and died for the country. Every time the anthem is played that family pays their respects to their son, and many others pay their respects to all who have fallen to allow us to live in this civil society. Yes the wars were all probably started for stupid reasons but people did die. You woudln't protest by disrespecting the grave of a soldier (unless you're a Hilsboro Baptist).

 

[spacejunk]

alex jones is a charlatan gasbag, like trump. that stuff about him being hicks is beyond silly.

In your subjective opinion. Some other people who do no harm feel differently about it.

of course it is my subjective opinion - i started by saying "I care a lot more about..."

if people want to think of the stars and stripes as a "gravestone", that's very interesting - but of course it is those people's subjective opinion.
i think it's a ludicrous and highly emotive arguement, and a little hard to take seriously.

i mean, how can anyone justify "offence" at peaceful protest - whilst also bringing up the US flag - which surely also represents some other, more obvious things like the constitution and the bill of rights most americans seem to cherish?
"freedom of speech" seems to be a pretty powerful ideal to "americans".
doesn't the flag more objectively represent the kind of ideals that allow for peaceful protest and freedom of expression?

mountains =/= molehills

i mean, maybeio'm "offended" at you being offended.
what does that leave us with? an impasse of (subjectively, of course ) utter nonsense.

 

[JGrimez]

doesn't the flag more objectively represent the kind of ideals that allow for peaceful protest and freedom of expression?

Sure but there's no freedom to be absolved of responsibility for all of your actions automatically because you think you're more right.
If you want to protest in a counterproductive way you have the right to. But you cannot stop people being offended by it, and then you have to expect the backlash

 

[cduggles]

This thread is about the Mueller investigation. Please stay on topic. Thanks!

 

[zephyr]

Muellers day off

^^Ppl like Trump seem to enjoy the inevitable backlashes to his various headline grabbing actions and doesnt really seem to mind too much about the coverage of this investigation nor worried about the revolving door of his staff.

Pretty weird really tbh. Happy enough to accept any praise coming his way but seems to prefer the negative publicity.

I avoid anything about him or the world news in general as am sick to death of the bullshit so just get whats going on here and a few mates fb feeds. Thats enough for me.

 

[spacejunk]

Sure but there's no freedom to be absolved of responsibility for all of your actions automatically because you think you're more right.
If you want to protest in a counterproductive way you have the right to. But you cannot stop people being offended by it, and then you have to expect the backlash

it was highly productive!
you're discussing it with a guy in a different continent what - 6 months later?

sounds like a very effective and symbolic protest to me

you don't have to agree with them, but you're not really convincing me with this "offence" line. nobody gets hurt when some people listen a song with a slightly different gait to those around them.

shit, i've been crushed by fucking crowdsurfers and bruised by slam-dancers while listening to music, and i don't take offence.

edit:

This thread is about the Mueller investigation. Please stay on topic. Thanks!

sorry cduggz, you're absolutely right, and i only saw this after i finished writing this post. i just noticed tathra's post on the previous page too.


personally i consider trump's efforts to subvert democracy and justice far more troubling than any peaceful expressions of dissent. dissent is a vital part of any democracy.
if dissent is not allowed, it's not democracy.

like the legal system. and freedom of the press.

 

[zephyr]

*sigh*

 

[cduggles]

His most unhinged moments seem to correlate with key moments in the investigation. For example, records were subpoenaed from the Trump Organization a few weeks ago (this is unusual because Mueller has usually requested records. If they don't fully comply or if they destroy anything then they can apparently be seriously penalized). You might have noticed...

Also, in terms of media coverage, based on reports from the White House (he yells at the TV) and Mar-a-Lago in Florida (he wanders around and asks random guests for their opinions on negative news coverage), he is definitely aware.

Unfortunately it's impossible to avoid coverage in the US news.

Edit: yeah sorry... I try to let things go for a bit and it always seems personal at the insertion point. No problem. And I'm one of those people who freaks if a flag is touching the ground (it's hugely disrespectful), but to me, Kaepernick was fine. He did it intelligently (large audience) and peacefully, and if you disagree with him then consider he's unemployed, which is ridiculous. Back to Mueller...[h=1][/h]

 

[zephyr]

^ Lol when the pollies here have an investigation launched anout their dealings in office they just take stress leave, cost 50k in fees, everything is supressed, another 50k to investigate the previous investigation and another round of stress leave, all supressed again, back to work like nothing happened


Hes not the first or last to be investigated or yell at the tv. This will prolly just end up being a waste of money and get swept under the rug.

 

[cduggles]

If he hadn't fired the head of the FBI and screamed at the head of the DOJ, Jeff Sessions, for recusing himself from the investigation, and a few other things, I'd agree. But this is a serious investigation by career prosecutors who are experts at what they do (they all have specialties). It's probably one of the best legal teams ever assembled. And as the Manafort charges show (both federal and state- which he can't be pardoned out of), Mueller isn't messing around.

 

[zephyr]

Forgive my ignorance as ive scrolled and cant find this info.


Who started this investigation initially and why is it the Trump administration can fire the investigator thats investigating him?


Why does this seem so crazy?

 

[spacejunk]

Forgive my ignorance as ive scrolled and cant find this info.


Who started this investigation initially and why is it the Trump administration can fire the investigator thats investigating him?

lol - funny you should ask.

remember former australian federal minister alexander downer?


uh-huh - this guy;

Donald Trump aide's booze-fuelled admission to Alexander Downer 'helped spark FBI probe into Russian election interference


The attacks on US Special Counsel Robert Mueller, who is investigating allegations of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, have been coming thick and fast. And now Australia's High Commissioner to the UK Alexander Downer is involved.

Allies of President Donald Trump have sought to disparage the Russia investigation as a product of the infamous leaked dossier paid for by political rivals and full of lurid allegations about Mr Trump's private life.

Now the New York Times claims the ball was set rolling after a tip from a trusted ally, with Australia's very own Alexander Downer front and centre.

The newspaper claims Mr Downer had a night of heavy drinking with former Trump campaign aide George Papadopoulos at the Kensington Wine Rooms in London in May 2016.

According to the Times, it was Mr Downer who held his booze better ? extracting an admission from Mr Papadopoulos that Russia was shopping dirt on Hillary Clinton to her political rivals.

When leaked Democratic Party emails began appearing in public two months later it is alleged Australian officials passed on the Downer intel to American counterparts, helping to trigger the FBI probe into Russian interference in the US election.

That probe has morphed into the special counsel investigation led by Mr Mueller and has seen Mr Papadopoulos plead guilty to lying to officials, who he is now cooperating with.

The significance of Mr Downer's connection

The political significance of the Downer revelation is that rather than a tip-off from a former spy working for money from political rivals it (allegedly) came from a close ally.

Who is George Papadopoulos?

What we know about the man at the centre of the FBI's probe into Russian election interference and how his night out with Alexander Downer sparked his downfall.
The Times article was put together from off-the-record accounts and there is no direct attribution or explanation of how the paper proved Mr Downer's role.

It remains to be seen how it will stand up to scrutiny.

By the time the Australian intelligence was allegedly handed to the US, leaked emails had already been published clearly targeting Mrs Clinton.

According to the Times, information from intelligence services in Britain and the Netherlands also contributed to the decision to set up the FBI probe into Russian attempts to influence the election.

What is clear is the extraordinary scale and the detail of the intelligence leaks Mr Trump complains about.

Even news of a wine in London will spill out.

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