Captain.Heroin
Bluelight Crew
I think it's a legitimate choice if you make close to 1 million dollars per year. Rich people want to stay rich and I don't blame them.
2017 Trump Presidency Thread
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I think it's a legitimate choice if you make close to 1 million dollars per year. Rich people want to stay rich and I don't blame them.
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
Right, but again, I can understand the logic there behind why you might choose to vote for him. But that doesn't mean you have to like him as a human being. That's the part I don't understand.
How anyone who isn't either a horrible person like trump themselves or totally lacking in instincts for people could like trump as a person. That's the part I don't understand. How people can like someone who is so appallingly horrible. You don't have to like him to agree with his politics or think you should vote for him, and that's not the part I don't get. It's the liking him as a person part I don't understand.
As for rich people, being rich doesn't make you a horrible person. It's certainly not uncommon for the very wealthy to be assholes and lacking in perspective, but you should still be able to see how horrible trump is as a person.
Like I said, there is an easy answer here, which is to say that everyone who likes trump is either themselves an asshole or lack the ability to see how horrible he is. But I don't much like that answer, it seems too simplistic. I mean it might be true, but it seems too easy for my liking.
cduggles
Bluelight Crew
I'm a fiscal conservative, but this 'tax reform' is heaping on the deficit. Not conservative at all.
The Trump agenda also has some unrealistic items like the Wall that Mexico is not paying for ever and unilateral trade agreements that hurt us greatly.
Also, this 'tax reform' bill is so Christmas-treed with items that a Republican House and Senate should address separately, like health care reform and immigration. It's pathetic that they couldn't repel the ACA, which was a central agenda item for Republicans and they didn't have their own health care plan ready to go (see Paul Ryan).
Trump is a sideshow who has undermined the GOP, his brand is toxic in elections (see Roy Moore who the party faithful did not want to support and the other two losers he fully endorsed), and he's eroded confidence in the GOP by publicly attacking members of Congress and his own Cabinet members (e.g., Corker, McConnell, McCain, Tillerson, Sessions, Murkowski, Collins, even Haley, etc.), and turnover (which is about to be a stampede for the exits, watch out for that!) in the White House through firing or resignation has caused chaos. He's also appointed people who are completely unqualified, including his daughter and son-in-law, who have violated multiple laws like the emoluments clause and used private emails/servers and 'forgot' to include critical information on security clearance questions. He's not consulting party leadership and communicating major policy decisions to relevant entities by Tweet.
One of the things that most concerns me that isn't often discussed is that Trump's lack of experience is creating vacuums that are being filled by other players. As a minor example, whatever Republicans hand to Trump, he will sign. He wants one legislative win this year that isn't sactions on Russia. This lack of coordination much less cooperation from the executive branch is creating fiefdoms that are infighting or setting policy that is self-serving and dangerous. I'm referring to the State Department, both Houses of Congress, the military, and so on. These fractures are hindering any kind coherent policy framework and are going to weaken America in a fundamental way. The judiciary is plugging up holes in a last gasp manner. The Dutch Boy model is buckling and the results are going to take decades to repair. It's becoming untenable and it won't be amusing.
![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
He's a distraction, a danger, and a liability to an already fractured party. And it's going to get worse. Do I need to add more?
I started a thread about this, and it didn't get very much traction, conclusion i reached in watching the trump thing play out is that it is largely to do with tribalism overriding reason and critical thinking.
Some people are so emotionally opposed to what they see as "social justice warriors" or some inane nonsense, that they'll jump on any bandwagon that is at odds with those people, no matter how toxic, dangerous, shambolic and downright stupid that is.
Tribal allegiance over critical reasoning. That's one answer, i think.
Another more specific one is racism.
Like with anything, there are some people who are single-issue voters/campaigners etc.
some people will vote for any candidate with an implicit - or explicit - racist agenda.
Fresco
Bluelighter
Oh gee, I dont know. Maybe because:
- Stock market is at an alltime high.
- Unemployment at alltime low
- GDP setting record highs.
Well yeah, whats not to like...LOL 8)
And before you say Trump isnt responsible for all this economic success, then what are you complaining aboot, because this never happened under Obama
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
You clearly didn't pay much attention to what I was saying.
I'll explain this yet again. By my count this will be the third time now. This is NOT about who you decide to support politically, that's not what I don't understand.
I don't understand how such people can like Trump as a person. You can agree with someone you dislike, you can rationally vote for someone you dislike.
I'm not asking why anyone would vote for him or politically support him, I'm asking why anyone would LIKE him. On a human level.
Fresco
Bluelighter
Its because you have too much hate in your heart.
If Trump cured cancer tomorrow, and also solved world hunger, you would still find a reason to disagree with him. And dislike him
you have no way of knowing if that is true. can we(all) please find a way to avoid this lazy, specious discussion technique?
alasdair
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
Uhhh, yes?
Neither of those things make you a good person. Your motives for doing them are what establish that. And unless he'd completely changed as a human being (which by doing anything that competent, he clearly would have) they would still be for selfish arrogant dickish reasons like always.
Though I find the underlying logic here a little screwy. By suggesting I'll always find a reason to dislike and disagree with him, you suggest that neither of those are my true motive for opposition to him. Which is a bit strange cause once you're not opposing someone because you dislike or disagree with them you're kinda running out of any reason at all. Soo, people dislike and disagree with him, iunno, cause we're all jealous and hate rich people?
Trump is a horrible horrible human being. How you can't see that as self evident.... Well, that was my whole question to start with.
You still seem to be missing the point though. Disagreeing with him has never been a part of this question. Even if trump changed his policies tomorrow to be things I entirely agreed with, I might support him continuing to be president, but unless his personality changed I'd still hate him as a person.
You can hate someone you agree with and like someone you intensely disagree with. And this question has always been about why anyone would like him. To which I guess you have advanced my theory as to why, so uhh, thanks.
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Fresco
Bluelighter
^^^^ tell me whats so wrong about Trump
between january 2009 and january 2017, u.s. stocks gained ~12% a year. it was the 2nd longest bull market in us history: The U.S. Is in the Midst of a Historic Bull Market.
you seem to like the dow as an indicator? shortly after obama took office the dow slumped to ~6600. when he left it was at ~16000. an increase of pretty much exactly 150%. for trump to see the same result, the dow will have to be at ~46000 when he leaves. only time will tell if it is.
when he took office, unemployment was 7.8%. it peaked during his terms at 10% but, when he left office, it was at 4.5% - a full 3% drop. obama handed trump an economy which was at, effectively for economists, full employment.
so, sure, this happened under obama.
alasdair
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
If I need to explain it to you, something is really wrong.
Everything about the way he acts, his personality, countless things he has said over the last several years. You can't do that shit and be a good human being. Good people don't so that kinda shit.
You do that shit because you truly don't give a fuck about hurting other people. You do it cause you truly believe you are superior to other people, in a fundamental "just because I am" kinda way.
Sorry but I tend to think if you can't see the problem it's cause you are the problem. I don't see how you can NOT see what's wrong here unless you're fundamentally like that yourself.
Which is kinda my question here, are there people who aren't themselves assholes like trump, or too stupid to see what he's like, who like him as a person?
I suppose another explanation could be people who agree with him could be so blinded, so desperate for someone who says shit they agree with, that they brainwash themselves into thinking the way he acts is OK.
I dunno, I truly don't understand it. That's why I ask. Cause I just don't get how anyone can like him as a person without being just like him. And if everyone who likes him ARE just like him and everyone who agrees with him really like him. Well I didn't think my view of the world could get much lower but here we go again.
Everything about the way he acts, his personality, countless things he has said over the last several years. You can't do that shit and be a good human being. Good people don't so that kinda shit.
You do that shit because you truly don't give a fuck about hurting other people. You do it cause you truly believe you are superior to other people, in a fundamental "just because I am" kinda way.
Sorry but I tend to think if you can't see the problem it's cause you are the problem. I don't see how you can NOT see what's wrong here unless you're fundamentally like that yourself.
Which is kinda my question here, are there people who aren't themselves assholes like trump, or too stupid to see what he's like, who like him as a person?
I suppose another explanation could be people who agree with him could be so blinded, so desperate for someone who says shit they agree with, that they brainwash themselves into thinking the way he acts is OK.
I dunno, I truly don't understand it. That's why I ask. Cause I just don't get how anyone can like him as a person without being just like him. And if everyone who likes him ARE just like him and everyone who agrees with him really like him. Well I didn't think my view of the world could get much lower but here we go again.
Fresco
Bluelighter
Okay fine, alasdair. Lets say it was ALL Obama and nothing to do with Trump.
What exactly is wrong with a booming economy, a healthy stock-market and a GDP thats jumping through the roof????!!
Lets celebrate
Fresco
Bluelighter
Sorry Jess, but you see Trump as a negative person because you yourself are negative.
And I'm not saying that to be a jerk, its just the truth
JessFR
Bluelight Crew
Then why didn't I hate Obama and Bush?
I am a negative person, I won't argue that. I won't dispute that I wasn't fond of either of their terms in office either.
But I never hated either of them as a human being. Trump is the first president I've hated as a person. For your theory to be right I should have hated the previous two presidents.
You might be able to make the argument that my negativity causes me to find reasons to have problems with every president. There might be some truth to that.
But it has nothing to do with why I hate trump as a person. That's new.
But then, Obama and Bush never said anything like the kinda shit Trump says.
I am a negative person, I won't argue that. I won't dispute that I wasn't fond of either of their terms in office either.
But I never hated either of them as a human being. Trump is the first president I've hated as a person. For your theory to be right I should have hated the previous two presidents.
You might be able to make the argument that my negativity causes me to find reasons to have problems with every president. There might be some truth to that.
But it has nothing to do with why I hate trump as a person. That's new.
But then, Obama and Bush never said anything like the kinda shit Trump says.
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jfc, i never said that. why do you have to exaggerate and misrepresent?
your claim was that it never happened during obama's terms when even the most cursory analysis suggests that it did.
for me the problem is that looking at benefits outwith the context of the associated costs is foolish. the cost of trump's booming economy will be felt by the environment. coal companies can now dump waste into streams with impunity, we're going to start drilling in anwr, etc.
and the saddest thing of all is that this generation won't have to experience the full effects - but i guess future generations can look back from their once beautiful, fucked planet and console themselves with the fact that your 401k did gangbusters
alasdair
Fresco
Bluelighter
Fine alasdair, point made.jfc, i never said that. why do you have to exaggerate and misrepresent?
your claim was that it never happened during obama's terms when even the most cursory analysis suggests that it did.
for me the problem is that looking at benefits outwith the context of the associated costs is foolish. the cost of trump's booming economy will be felt by the environment. coal companies can now dump waste into streams with impunity, we're going to start drilling in anwr, etc.
and the saddest thing of all is that this generation won't have to experience the full effects - but i guess future generations can look back from their once beautiful, fucked planet and console themselves with the fact that your 401k did gangbusters
alasdair
Lets just say that Trump wasnt hired to fix the environment.
He was hired (elected) to kickstart the economy. And I think so far he has succeeded.
If you want to take issue with Trump on environmental issues then thats fine, but that wasnt the platform he ran on and thats also not what the American public voted for.
Having said all that, I somewhat agree with you that we need to get the fuck off oil and find a much better, cleaner energy source!
Maybe ethanol is the answer??? (you can run that stuff off corn beets FFS)
I was hearing something about a major infrastructure spend about to commence in the US today on the radio. Is it for real? The country hasn't had anything really substantial since the FDR-Ike period. Masses of repairs and major upgrades needed imo. Huge potential upsides to quality investment.
you seem annoyed at me that you made a claim which was incorrect.
i don't think you can make the general case that elections are about single issues. i expect they are for some people. that said, i agree that it's likely people who voted for him think the way you do and care more about benefits than costs.
common ground! fancy that
alasdair
aihfl
Bluelight Crew
Well it remains to be seen what will actually happen but with this tax bill adding over a trillion dollars to our national debt, I wouldn't count on it. Here in Florida our infrastructure is so new that it really isn't an issue but the infrastructure in a lot of places is falling apart. I thought conditions in the northeast was especially dire and I haven't lived there since 2013.
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