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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

2017 Trump Presidency Thread

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What does running track have to do with mental gymnastics?

Your formal education has robbed you of any sense of humor because that attempt at insult comedy sucks and makes no sense.

As far as the debt china owns, imo we'll most likely be at war with each other before that debt is paid back.
How disgusting is it now that liberals are touting the deficit as a real issue, with a straight face, after Obama ran it up 9 trillion dollars over his two terms. Never heard a peep about the deficit till just now. The CBO literally never gets anything even slightly close, an their assessment of the tax plan and it's one Trillin cost in no way takes growth into account. When our country is at 4 and 5% growth we will see where we are with our ability to pay down the debt. We sure as hell aren't gonna pay it down with obama level growth and bernies ideas about growing he welfare state, social programs, and 'free' everything. The true mental gymnastics are done by those that don't understand how our economy works.
 
I study liars. I've never seen one like President Trump



I spent the first two decades of my career as a social scientist studying liars and their lies. I thought I had developed a sense of what to expect from them. Then along came President Donald Trump. His lies are both more frequent and more malicious than ordinary people's.
In research beginning in the mid 1990s, when I was a professor at the University of Virginia, my colleagues and I asked 77 college students and 70 people from the nearby community to keep diaries of all the lies they told every day for a week. They handed them in to us with no names attached. We calculated participants' rates of lying and categorised each lie as either self-serving (told to advantage the liar or protect the liar from embarrassment, blame or other undesired outcomes) or kind (told to advantage, flatter or protect someone else).


At The Washington Post, the Fact Checker feature has been tracking every false and misleading claim and flip-flop made by Trump this year. The inclusion of misleading statements and flip-flops is consistent with the definition of lying my colleagues and I gave to our participants: "A lie occurs any time you intentionally try to mislead someone." In the case of Trump's claims, though, it is possible to ascertain only whether they were false or misleading, and not what the President's intentions were.
I categorised the most recent 400 lies that the Post had documented through mid-November in the same way my colleagues and I had categorised the lies of the participants in our study.
The college students in our research told an average of two lies a day, and the community members told one. (A more recent study of the lies 1000 US adults told in the previous 24 hours found that people told an average of 1.65 lies a day; the authors noted that 60 per cent of the participants said they told no lies at all, while the top 5 per cent of liars told nearly half of all the falsehoods in the study.) The most prolific liar among the students told an average of 6.6 lies a day. The biggest liar in the community sample told 4.3 lies in an average day.
In Trump's first 298 days in office, however, he made 1628 false or misleading claims or flip-flops, by the Post's tally. That's about six a day, far higher than the average rate in our studies. And of course, reporters have access to only a subset of Trump's false statements - the ones he makes publicly - so unless he never stretches the truth in private, his actual rate of lying is almost certainly higher.

That rate has been accelerating. Starting in early October, the Post's tracking showed that Trump told a remarkable nine lies a day, outpacing even the biggest liars in our research.
But the flood of deceit isn't the most surprising finding about Trump.

Both the college students and the community members in our study served their own interests with their lies more often than other people's interests. They told lies to try to advantage themselves in the workplace, the marketplace, their personal relationships and just about every other domain of everyday life. For example, a salesperson told a customer that the jeans she was trying on were not too tight, so she could make the sale. The participants also lied to protect themselves psychologically: one college student told a classmate that he wasn't worried about his grades, so the classmate wouldn't think he was stupid.
Less often, the participants lied in kind ways, to help other people get what they wanted, look or feel better, or to spare them from embarrassment or blame. For example, a son told his mother he didn't mind taking her shopping, and a woman took sides with a friend who was divorcing, even though she thought her friend was at fault, too.

About half the lies the participants told were self-serving (46 per cent for the college students, 57 per cent for the community members), compared with about a quarter that were kind (26 per cent for the students, 24 per cent for the community members). Other lies did not fit either category; they included, for instance, lies told to entertain or to keep conversations running smoothly.
One category of lies was so small that, when we reported the results, we just tucked them into a footnote. Those were cruel lies, told to hurt or disparage others. For example, one person told a co-worker that the boss wanted to see him when he really didn't, "so he'd look like a fool". Just 0.8 per cent of the lies told by the college students and 2.4 per cent of the lies told by the community members were mean-spirited.
My colleagues and I found it easy to code each of our participants' lies into just one category. This was not the case for Trump. Close to a quarter of his false statements (24 per cent) served several purposes simultaneously.
Nearly two-thirds of Trump's lies were self-serving. Examples included: "They're big tax cuts - the biggest cuts in the history of our country, actually"; and, about the people who came to see him on a presidential visit to Vietnam last month: "They were really lined up in the streets by the tens of thousands."
Slightly less than 10 per cent of Trump's lies were kind ones, told to advantage, flatter or protect someone else. An example was his statement on Twitter that "it is a 'miracle' how fast the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police were able to find the demented shooter and stop him from even more killing!" In the broadest sense, it is possible to interpret every lie as ultimately self-serving, but I tried to stick to how statements appeared on the surface.
Trump told 6.6 times as many self-serving lies as kind ones. That's a much higher ratio than we found for our study participants, who told about double the number of self-centered lies compared with kind ones.
The most stunning way Trump's lies differed from our participants', though, was in their cruelty. An astonishing 50 per cent of Trump's lies were hurtful or disparaging. For example, he proclaimed that John Brennan, James Clapper and James Comey, all career intelligence or law enforcement officials, were "political hacks". He said that "the Sloppy Michael Moore Show on Broadway was a TOTAL BOMB and was forced to close". He insisted that other "countries, they don't put their finest in the [immigration] lottery system. They put people probably in many cases that they don't want". And he claimed that "Ralph Northam, who is running for Governor of Virginia, is fighting for the violent MS-13 killer gangs & sanctuary cities".
The Trump lies that could not be coded into just one category were typically told both to belittle others and enhance himself. For example: "Senator Bob Corker 'begged' me to endorse him for reelection in Tennessee. I said 'NO' and he dropped out (said he could not win without my endorsement)."
The sheer frequency of Trump's lies appears to be having an effect, and it may not be the one he is going for. A Politico/Morning Consult poll from late October showed that only 35 per cent of voters believed that Trump was honest, while 51 per cent said he was not honest. (The others said they didn't know or had no opinion.) Results of a Quinnipiac University poll from November were similar: 37 per cent of voters thought Trump was honest, compared with 58 per cent who thought he was not.
For fewer than 40 per cent of American voters to see the President as honest is truly remarkable. Most humans, most of the time, believe other people. That's our default setting. Usually, we need a reason to disbelieve.
Research on the detection of deception consistently documents this "truth bias". In the typical study, participants observe people making statements and are asked to indicate, each time, whether they think the person is lying or telling the truth.
Measuring whether people believe others should be difficult to do accurately, because simply asking the question disrupts the tendency to assume that other people are telling the truth. It gives participants a reason to wonder. And yet, in our statistical summary of more than 200 studies, Charles F. Bond jnr and I found that participants still believed other people more often than they should have - 58 per cent of the time in studies in which only half of the statements were truthful. People are biased toward believing others, even in studies in which they are told explicitly that only half of the statements they will be judging are truths.
By telling so many lies, and so many that are mean-spirited, Trump is violating some of the most fundamental norms of human social interaction and human decency. Many of the rest of us, in turn, have abandoned a norm of our own - we no longer give Trump the benefit of the doubt that we usually give so readily.

Bella DePaulo is a social scientist who has published extensively on the psychology of lying

link
(originally published in the Washington Post)


Trump supporters might insist that the president's dishonesty isn't a problem - or insist that he isn't dishonest at all, but they're wrong.

Trump hasn't just debased the office he holds, he has helped foster a trend towards really dumbed-down and dishonest political discourse in the wider culture.

This is not the "post truth era" - there just some extremely dishonest people in positions of power.

It seems that this has inspired some of his supporters to take a leaf out of trump's book, but it's pretty transparent.

Making a discussion so insufferably inane and disingenuous that the other person walks away doesn't mean you've 'won' the debate, it just indicates a lack of integrity and/or self awareness.

Denying reality, or pushing really dishonest talking points, doesn't change reality or the nature of truth.
It just pollutes and harms the thing you claim to be passionately concerned about ("america first!" etc etc).
There is nothing patriotic about cheering on people who are dismantling your nation's democratic institutions.
 
If you're being honest with yourself you would be able to grasp what I was saying.

We did, and you basically lied. Don't try bullshitting us dude, it's just a waste of your time.

Whether or not you like the idea of a border wall, or deporting all the bad hombres, it just didn't happen. It was a pipe dream to begin with.

What does running track have to do with mental gymnastics?

Your formal education has robbed you of any sense of humor because that attempt at insult comedy sucks and makes no sense.

As far as the debt china owns, imo we'll most likely be at war with each other before that debt is paid back.

I wasn't insulting you, you are genuinely doing mental gymnastics to convince yourself of certain things.
 
The wall is going to happen, there have been prototypes. The wall is very necessary to secure out border, and help prevent incidents like that woman that was killed by the felon illegal alien that had snuck in 5 times prior. It will take a bit of time to procure the funding, but I honesty think it will happen in his first term.
 
lol that's what they said about the keystone access pipeline. We need the wall, and I don't doubt trump gets it done by the end of his first term, maybe beggining of second. Honeslty I don't even know how folks doubt he's gonna get this done, but I reckon haters are going to hate.

The Keystone access pipeline had to do with private land of native tribes, which we obviously have a long-standing history of violating their property rights and sovereignty. So...duh, of course the pipeline was going to get made.

The US/Mexico border, on the US side, is largely owned by private people who have money and don't want to see eminent domain buy them out of their land at a horrible loss of money. Some are ranchers/farmers who want their land to remain unobstructed. Most importantly they're white Americans, who will largely be able to use the justice system to their advantage.

The border wall would be a colossal environmental catastrophe and an eyesore of biblical proportions. We do not need it for national security. Most importantly we don't need to balloon the national debt to create such an eyesore.

After Trump's out of office, we'll probably rip up "the wall", if it gets created in part (highly unlikely) or in whole (it most certainly won't happen) at a loss to the taxpayers.

Trump supporters might insist that the president's dishonesty isn't a problem - or insist that he isn't dishonest at all, but they're wrong.

Trump hasn't just debased the office he holds, he has helped foster a trend towards really dumbed-down and dishonest political discourse in the wider culture.

This is not the "post truth era" - there just some extremely dishonest people in positions of power.

It seems that this has inspired some of his supporters to take a leaf out of trump's book, but it's pretty transparent.

Making a discussion so insufferably inane and disingenuous that the other person walks away doesn't mean you've 'won' the debate, it just indicates a lack of integrity and/or self awareness.

Denying reality, or pushing really dishonest talking points, doesn't change reality or the nature of truth.
It just pollutes and harms the thing you claim to be passionately concerned about ("america first!" etc etc).
There is nothing patriotic about cheering on people who are dismantling your nation's democratic institutions.

Dishonesty is a problem, perhaps people distrusted Clinton for this reason too?

Trump is a notorious habitual liar, and I do not doubt that for a second.
 
The Keystone access pipeline had to do with private land of native tribes, which we obviously have a long-standing history of violating their property rights and sovereignty. So...duh, of course the pipeline was going to get made.

The US/Mexico border, on the US side, is largely owned by private people who have money and don't want to see eminent domain buy them out of their land at a horrible loss of money. Some are ranchers/farmers who want their land to remain unobstructed. Most importantly they're white Americans, who will largely be able to use the justice system to their advantage.

The border wall would be a colossal environmental catastrophe and an eyesore of biblical proportions. We do not need it for national security. Most importantly we don't need to balloon the national debt to create such an eyesore.

Liberals being concerned with the national debt is my absolute favorite! The pipeline went through tons of private land, it's definitely doable. I agree on the eye soar part, but illegal immigration costs our country billons a year, and costs more than just monetarily. I don't think the wall is needed along the full length of the border either. It needs to be a combination of a wall in certain areas, technology with sensors and drones, and just monitoring those systems. We will never cut down on illegal immigration 100%, but we can lower the numbers drastically, and stop some of the drugs and human trafficking to boot.
 
The CBO literally never gets anything even slightly close, an their assessment of the tax plan and it's one Trillin cost in no way takes growth into account.

I'll call.

Economists disagree with you.

CBO has itself analyzed its forecasts and compared it with the Blue Chip consensus and the administration predictions and have found some deviation, but it compares quite well. Now that's from the CBO, but the data's there for you to ignore. ;)

About the biggest error the CBO has made in recent years is estimating how the ACA signups would work. One could read the details here. It's not as wildly inaccurate as some may claim, but it did overestimate how many people would get policies through the exchanges, and underestimate the number who would get policies through the Medicaid expansion. It's total estimate of uninsured was pretty dead on. It's accuracy was better than the Administration and the RAND corporation as well as other private groups. Here's another analysis of the CBO's estimate.

The CBO could be wrong - and has been wrong in the past. But since the early 1980s, their estimates for five years economic growth have deviated by an average of 1.2 points from what actually happened.

If the CBO predicts massive reduction in government revenue from this tax bill, based on past performance, it's likely to be fairly accurate.
 
How disgusting is it now that liberals are touting the deficit as a real issue, with a straight face, after Obama ran it up 9 trillion dollars over his two terms.

You mean the president that reduced deficits every year since the 2009?

Although that's less Obama's credit, and more the economic recovery from the housing crisis that drove up deficits in late 2008 and 2009.
 
The CBO has become compromised, as many other congressional agencies have. At the end of the day they were very off with their Obamacare predictions, and to say Obamacare was/is a failure is an understatement. Most of the people that end up even being able to afford a plan end up having insurance in name only. My mother deductible and premium is so high she decided to take the penalty this year bc there was no way to swing it. No economist on the planet knows what effect this tax plan will have on the economy, we can make educated guesses based on past legislation, but really I don't believe anyone that says this will cause X or any other declarative assertion. When out economy hits 4% growth for any extended period of time we will have more options to tackle the national debt, assuming conservatives are in power. But really these globalist shill president of the past 20 years raised the debt to where we are at now, and trump is going to dig us out, with the assumption that the economy keeps booming and these thousands of manufacturing jobs continue to roll in. Seriously eschers, I wouldn't have that much faith in the CBO. Regardless of if they are saying something you find to be supporting your political views.
 
Liberals being concerned with the national debt is my absolute favorite!

I'm not a liberal and I did not vote for Clinton, Sanders, and would rather die than vote for the anti-vaxxers (Stein and Trump both believe vaccines cause autism).

There's less and less people coming across the border. Illegal immigration is naturally declining, why do we need the wall if it is a problem that is self-correcting?

Deportations were highest under Obama, why was that such a bad thinG?
 
The CBO has become compromised, as many other congressional agencies have. At the end of the day they were very off with their Obamacare predictions

The CBO was almost dead on with the number of people who would remain uninsured in 2016. What they were wrong about is where they'd get their insurance from - less people bought on the exchanges and more got insurance through the medicaid expansion than the CBO predicted.

That's your "very off" prediction.

In 2012, when the CBO made their predictions based on the SCOTUS decision that modified the law*, the uninsured rate was 17.2% for non-elderly. The CBO predicted that would fall to 11% in 2016. In 2016, it fell to 10.3%.

The "compromised" agency actually overestimated the amount of uninsured in 2016!

*SCOTUS ruled that forcing states to expand medicaid was unconstitutional, thus allowing some states not to expand the program to cover more of the uninsured.
 
Donald Trump’s presidential win was a boon for the Republican Party in Washington, consolidating the GOP’s control of the Oval Office, Senate and House of Representatives. But beyond the Beltway, poll data suggests the election has had the opposite effect on the party, pushing voters away.

From November 2016 to November 2017 there was a 5-point drop in the number of people who call themselves Republicans, from 42 percent to 37 percent, according to Gallup. In that same time, the number of people identifying as Democrats stayed flat at 44 percent.

[...]

But perhaps just as concerning for the GOP may be how widespread the party defections have been. The numbers have dropped across a wide range of demographic groups — all age groups, different education levels and most racial and ethnic groups.

- NBC
 
Ms. [Nikki] Haley, a former governor and one of the highest-ranking women in Mr. Trump’s administration, refocused attention on the allegations against the president by insisting that his accusers should be treated no differently than the scores of women who have come forward in recent weeks with stories of sexual harassment and misconduct against other men.

“They should be heard, and they should be dealt with,” Ms. Haley said on CBS’s “Face the Nation.” “And I think we heard from them prior to the election. And I think any woman who has felt violated or felt mistreated in any way, they have every right to speak up.”

- New York Times

Any thoughts on why Ms. Haley would come out at this time with this statement? She seems well connected for a politician and her political future seems bright. What does she know?
 
Trump is Bad. We need more Mexicans to come into the Americas to make more burritos so we can be diversified.

On a more serious note. It is all just a giant circus. Keep the peasants occupied with race, politics and environment while the mega wealthy gang bang the shit out you. Donald Trump and Bill Clinton are probably in the White House tag teaming Ivanka and Hillary as we speak. American politics is about as real as fake Wrestling. A bad guy is fabricated to create drama. A good guy is fabricated to create suspense. Their elaborate "battles"(debates) are nothing more than rehearsed plays.

I must admit, it is really entertaining watching you guys unknowingly fall into your roles, taking turns removing the Elite's cock from your mouths as you bicker over your petty ideologies.
 
- New York Times

Any thoughts on why Ms. Haley would come out at this time with this statement? She seems well connected for a politician and her political future seems bright. What does she know?

I was just watching the same thing. Seems to me the prevailing sentiment is to listen to the women (men can be harassed too).

I must admit, it is really entertaining watching you guys unknowingly fall into your roles, taking turns removing the Elite's cock from your mouths as you bicker over your petty ideologies.

I love to parody myself
 
- New York Times

Any thoughts on why Ms. Haley would come out at this time with this statement? She seems well connected for a politician and her political future seems bright. What does she know?

"They should be dealt with" will save her job. Trump will hear it like "Yeah, they should be dealt with, and I'm going to countersue!"
 
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