The SEX ALLEGATIONS Megathread

[spacejunk]

Jesus, that's insane.


Wasn't cocaine associated with "sexually threatening" working class african americans in the 1920s, before it became the bourgeois drug of choice in the late 60s and 70s?

 

[Scrofula]

Black men have been raping white women in the popular imagination since probably 1650.

I just remember Latinos being the threat in the twenties, with LA Navy guys fighting the zoot suits. That might've been a song, though.

It was Nixon who locked up his opposition voters, blacks and college kids, by clamping down on their drugs.

(I figure the British started it after their opium wars backfired, but there's no question race is part of drug law here.)

 

[spacejunk]

"Drug use" and "rape" are popular ways to stir up moral panics against certain groups of people.
It's one of the main tactics that got trump elected (with a little help from spambots, etc)

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

These women put up with Harvey having sex with them to advance their careers. He did not assault them in a parking lot and hold them down against their will and rape them.

The willingly came to a hotel room alone with him, engaged in sex acts, and continued to engage in sex acts in order to advance their careers.

This is not rape, its prostitution if anything.

If he threatened to destroy their career if they didn't sleep with him, that would be coercion, and thus a form of rape.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

...then that means They had the choice to walk away from their carreer and not have sex with him.

It's wrong and probably illegal to fire someone for refusing sex...but it's not rape. Now they are violated instead of jobless which is worse to them all of a sudden

 

[spacejunk]

Rape has specific legal definitions. It's not a matter of opinion; being coerced into sex is rape.

Regardless of that, however, is the fact that he has been accused of rape.

Italian actress and director Asia Argento's first dealing with Weinstein's company Miramax was when she appeared in their crime drama B Monkey.
She says she was left alone with him in a hotel room on the French Riviera after being told she was going to a Miramax party.
Argento says she reluctantly agreed to give him a massage, but he then raped her.
Weinstein "terrified me, and he was so big", she said. "It wouldn't stop. It was a nightmare."
"I know he has crushed a lot of people before. That's why this story - in my case, it's 20 years old, some of them are old - has never come out."
Argento has not spoken out until now, saying she feared it would ruin her career to do so.

The thing about rape allegations is that it is important not to make preconceived judgements either way until the people involved have had their day in court.
It's a super sensitive subject (for accusers and accuses alike) and i think it is important to respect both the assumption of innocence and sincerity of accusation.

 

[JessFR]

Seems like rape to me.

Nobody has the right to pressure or coerce someone into having sex with them. I don’t really care what you call it. Rape, sexual assault, harassment. I for one have no interest in dictionary arguments. What matters is what happened. And it’s wrong and illegal and people like that belong in jail. I don’t really care what you call it.

There doesn’t have to be violence for it to be rape. Rape is forcing sex on someone. Coercion is a form of force.

I gotta be honest here. What I’m hearing from the OP sounds like victim blaming to me. It’s so easy to just dismiss this kinda shit as “well they could have just left” when you have no idea what the victim actually felt.

What matters when determining the severity of the crime is how harmful the crime would likely have been to the victim. Compelling someone to have sex, say by suggesting you’ll ruin their career if they don’t. Is profoundly harmful. And therefore a crime.

This isn’t rocket science. Nobody has any right to be trying to compel anybody to have sex with them. People like that are predators and don’t belong in our society with the rest of us. Way I see it it’s that simple.

 

[BehindtheShadow]

Seems like rape to me.

Nobody has the right to pressure or coerce someone into having sex with them. I don’t really care what you call it. Rape, sexual assault, harassment. I for one have no interest in dictionary arguments. What matters is what happened. And it’s wrong and illegal and people like that belong in jail. I don’t really care what you call it.

There doesn’t have to be violence for it to be rape. Rape is forcing sex on someone. Coercion is a form of force.

I gotta be honest here. What I’m hearing from the OP sounds like victim blaming to me. It’s so easy to just dismiss this kinda shit as “well they could have just left” when you have no idea what the victim actually felt.

What matters when determining the severity of the crime is how harmful the crime would likely have been to the victim. Compelling someone to have sex, say by suggesting you’ll ruin their career if they don’t. Is profoundly harmful. And therefore a crime.

This isn’t rocket science. Nobody has any right to be trying to compel anybody to have sex with them. People like that are predators and don’t belong in our society with the rest of us. Way I see it it’s that simple.

Well said Jess IMO you have no idea what the victims were experiencing or going through or what their state of mind was.
If its done forcefully be it violent or not its still rape!

 

[JessFR]

...then that means They had the choice to walk away from their carreer and not have sex with him.

It's wrong and probably illegal to fire someone for refusing sex...but it's not rape. Now they are violated instead of jobless which is worse to them all of a sudden

As spacejunk said these things have legal definitions that don't leave room for interpretation.

But for discussions sake, what does it matter what it's called? Even IF that were all that happened. And it probably isn't. That alone should be enough that no moral person should be siding with the piece of shit sexual predator over the victim. But that sure sounds to me like what you're doing.

Coercing someone to have sex with you or you'll destroy their career is despicable. It is likely to be very emotionally damaging to the victim. And in most western jurisdictions it would be rape. But rape or not, exactly what is your concern here? Should the victims not be speaking out? Should they not press charges for the harm that was brought to them to the fullest extent of the law? Do you think it is acceptable to coerce people into having sex with you?

What is it you think is wrong here exactly?

 

[-=SS=-]

So your assault v. rape criteria requires other people present to hold her down and locked doors/physical barriers? What kind of Amazonian tribe do you live in?

If these women are grown adults with their own volition, not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and there's no barrier to them actually getting up and walking away then all I'm saying is I find it hard to believe they were raped. How exactly do you 'coerce' a fully grown adult into being raped when they can remove themselves from the situation if they sense it's going in a negative direction. They're not minors that are susceptible to manipulation, we're talking about adults.. so, what's stopping them from leaving? That's all I'm saying.

People automatically doubting rape claims is exactly the reason stuff like this is able to happen.

So what if this happened in an industry notorious for sexual exploitation?
If anything that should make the claims more believable, not less so.

I doubt rape claims because I'm a cynical bastard, I trust no one and doubt everything. Just because it's women and the subject of rape doesn't mean they automatically get a free pass. People lie for their own benefit or twist the truth, this is no exception - and when there's a lot of money involved there's even more reason to doubt (both ways I might add.. thus we need evidence). It doesn't help that women have begun to utilize the accusation of rape and sexual assault charges more in recent times, or at least more are getting caught out and convicted for it.

Assuming there was no physical barrier to leaving, stuff like this happens because the individuals don't value themselves enough in the first place and/or get frozen into inaction because of the potential prospects (in this case, a lot of money through acting).. if they did value themselves they would have gotten up and left at the first sign of trouble. They're adults, they're not stupid.

Contributing to the culture of shaming and ostracising sexual assault victims isn't edgy or funny - it's creepy.

Until all the facts are in I reserve the right to make light of the situation and criticize freely. I'm not doubting the guy is probably a sleezeball who's abused his position of power.. it's Hollywood, he's a wealthy powerful man, it's not that unlikely really. On the same token and in light of that context you can't automatically give women a free pass on this. When there's smoke there is usually fire for sure, but until evidence is in again there is nothing wrong with doubting.

My doubting and cynicism might annoy you, but it didn't cause this stuff to happen and it doesn't contribute to it happening either.

 

[JessFR]

For me, like I said before. I don’t really care if you call it rape or not. I don’t consider it a relevant question.

What’s relevant is that of course you ‘can’ coerce someone into having sex with you without violence. Through threats, intimidation, manipulation.

You don’t have to be a minor to be manipulated or coerced or pressured. There is no reason society should tolerate people using such methods to procure sex. Even if it weren’t psychologically damaging, which it is. Anyone who does that is a sexual predator. A relatively mild one compared to some, but still a predator.

And in any case it prevents free consent. If you don’t want to call it rape fine, call it whatever you like. What matters is that it’s wrong, and illegal, and usually quite damaging to the victim psychologically.

Nobody has a right to do that. Why should it be lawful to coerce someone into having sex with you? It shouldn’t. And if it’s not lawful, why should they not be taken out of society so they can’t continue to do it? They should.

Rape, sexual assault, harassment, something else entirely, I’m not interested in what it’s labeled only on what it is. And what it is is disgusting predatory behavior that shouldn’t be tolerated in our society. Again I don’t see how this isn’t self evident.

 

[Scrofula]

If these women are grown adults with their own volition, not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and there's no barrier to them actually getting up and walking away then all I'm saying is I find it hard to believe they were raped. How exactly do you 'coerce' a fully grown adult into being raped when they can remove themselves from the situation if they sense it's going in a negative direction. They're not minors that are susceptible to manipulation, we're talking about adults.. so, what's stopping them from leaving? That's all I'm saying.

No barrier to their simply walking away? I don't know any of the details, don't know if the accusations fit legal definitions of rape or not, but suggesting a woman can't be raped if she isn't in a locked room or tied up is pretty absurd. I think you can find more than one jogger who would take issue with that.

How do you coerce a person into getting into a bad situation? By being their boss maybe. Someone with an enormous power imbalance, backed up with an enormous weight imbalance. Or being their date.

 

[spacejunk]

Until all the facts are in I reserve the right to make light of the situation and criticize freely.

Making light of rape, your "right"?
I'm not sure if you're trying to be inflammatory or just obnoxious.

 

[cduggles]

I doubt rape claims because I'm a cynical bastard, I trust no one and doubt everything.

It sounds as if you doubt women who speak up about illegal male behavior.

You seem to give men a free pass as to ever behaving like this.

You don't need to post the CYA statement.

 

[Uncadollas]

He's not a nice man for sure.....but there are some things that make me go hmmmmm.

Does it play into it that he's fat and unattractive in a shallow industry where everyone has to be good looking?

Most of his accusers do mentioning that he could further there careers and it seems their careers actually were furthered.

Some of the accusations sound like "an unattractive guy hit on me in an awkward way and I left" , sounds like more of a put down on the fat ugly guy than rape.

Some said it was half and half, Asia Argento said she gave him a massage and had consensual sex with him but when he gave her oral sex it was rape.

Some of them reaped the full benefits of having been on the casting couch and are throwing in there 2 cents just to stay in the limelight that they hunger so deeply for.

Some sound legit though, and there's a lot of them so I do believe that he is pretty much an asshole....but so are some of the women.

Using a person to further your career isn't all that nice either. There isn't a lot of honor in some of these ladies behavior as well. They knew he was an unattractive guy who wanted to get with hot girls." I was only willing to give him a massage" strikes me as a little shady. I got to wonder if any of these women would trade their fame and money to go back and erase their encounter with him...I kind of doubt it.

 

[Scrofula]

If an asshole who deserves it gets robbed, is it not still robbery, or does it not count?

 

[-=SS=-]

No barrier to their simply walking away? I don't know any of the details, don't know if the accusations fit legal definitions of rape or not, but suggesting a woman can't be raped if she isn't in a locked room or tied up is pretty absurd. I think you can find more than one jogger who would take issue with that.

Poor choice of comparison.. a jogger has even less barriers! They can.. jog on. If they get grabbed and forcibly taken then that's as clear cut as it gets really.

How do you coerce a person into getting into a bad situation? By being their boss maybe. Someone with an enormous power imbalance, backed up with an enormous weight imbalance. Or being their date.

But this doesn't really get to the heart of things, for in every situation the woman always has the power to just refuse the situation, get up and walk away. This very topic was being discussed on the radio today, and a caller gave the example of a coworker who was being harassed by her boss who had gotten her work VISA or something like that so he had an element of power over her. The caller was right in the sense that he had her over a barrel, but at the end of the day she still had the choice to walk away, even if it made her life more difficult in the short term. That's life. It doesn't make the boss any less of a dickhead, or Weiner any less of a deviant, but in the end all these women still had the choice.. hence my point about physical barriers.

They may have lost a shot at a career and had to take another turn in life, but faced with the choice between just exiting the situation or proceeding they chose not to exit. If they weren't physically prevented from leaving then I'm saying there was at least a part of them that was culpable in the context of the whole situation. Doesn't excuse his behavior or actions, of course it doesn't, but it takes two to tango at the end of the day.. except when you're physically forced or physically prevented from escaping. Any fully grown adult can get up and walk away. This was a well known man in a relatively public situation.. he was not going to murder these women if they didn't comply, they would have instinctively known that.

It sounds as if you doubt women who speak up about illegal male behavior.

You seem to give men a free pass as to ever behaving like this.

I doubt everyone and their motivations. If you read what I wrote I'm not excusing this guys behavior and actions, not at all, and in fact I think it's more than likely he has committed offenses. All I'm saying is there is more to this than just 'person x is a sexual deviant', it's just not that simple.

 

[Scrofula]

Poor choice of comparison.. a jogger has even less barriers! They can.. jog on. If they get grabbed and forcibly taken then that's as clear cut as it gets really.

Seems to make my point though . . . not a barrier in sight, and yet somehow a jogger can still be assaulted. This is something you said can't happen to a grown woman, getting forcibly overpowered.

Like that time your school chums, or whatever you call them there, tricked you and said if you ate those worms they'd give you a shilling or whatever, lured you out to their treehouse and then beat you up anyway? You could have walked away at any point, but you had something to gain, greedy bastard. Clearly you deserved to get beat up. You knew you shouldn't trust those guys, and frankly, you're the one who should stay after class and write on the board.

THey never even locked the treehouse door.

 

[-=SS=-]

Seems to make my point though . . . not a barrier in sight, and yet somehow a jogger can still be assaulted. This is something you said can't happen to a grown woman, getting forcibly overpowered.

Err no, I did not say a grown woman can not get forcibly overpowered. That's just ridiculous to even say that. What I said was that a grown woman, who is of sound mind and is not being physically prevented from walking away, can in fact walk away if she so wishes. Just as a jogger can keep on jogging, unless she is physically forcibly overpowered, in which case it is clear cut that it is assault, sexual assault or rape.

Were these women physically forcibly overpowered and raped? I doubt it. If they were then there would have been at least one of them reporting it to the authorities for sure. But they all chose to remain silent until now, after they've all made millions of dollars. How convenient 8)

 

[JessFR]

What they ‘could’ have done is irrelivent.

If someone extorts me, it’s still a crime no matter how I react to it.

It’s not the victims that should have to explain themselves.

I couldn’t care less the motives of the women involved. My only interest is if what they said the guy did is true. If it is, no matter how they reacted or why they wound up acting however they did, he shouldn’t be a free man.

It seems obvious to me that your motives go far beyond presumption of innocence.