The SEX ALLEGATIONS Megathread

[JessFR]

I don't think it is worthy of discussion, not the way you're discussing it. Discussing it in isolation as a hypothetical would be ok but discussing it in relation to an ACTUAL sex crime is NOT. It's very very not ok.

 

[-=SS=-]

The only part that I think has ANY merit is the argument that by staying quiet they potentially helped him get away with doing it to subsequent women. It's very common for rape victims to not report their assault, and one of the reasons is fear of being judged by people like you over stupid shit like this. So if you have concerns about women not reporting being sexually assaulted because the perpetrator will likely continue commiting their crimes, that's all the more reason for you to be far more compassionate and understanding toward the victims. Because it's attitudes like yours that are part of why they don't.

Why do you even care about the victims actions? What is it exactly you think they're getting away with and shouldn't? And why does it matter.

My attitude doesn't stop women from reporting these crimes, don't be ridiculous. It is far more likely they fear being judged by close family and friends, not strangers.. and I know that's the case because that is something I have found out from experience (re: previous girlfriends). The people they feared judgement from didn't hold my views either, it was more the fact they felt afraid of confiding and receiving help, and not wanting to experience that feeling of helplessness again.. trust, basically. Nothing to do with political, psychology or philosophical attitudes. They did not want to re-live the experience and emotions, and have the fear that those they loved the most wouldn't be sympathetic to their plight. They had no problem confiding the story to semi-close friends. I've seen it many times. Why? Because there is no great fear of loss if the person takes it negatively or throws it back at them.. they can just walk away and forget about that person as they are not that important.

I held the views I hold now at the time I helped my first girlfriend through her experience. I resent it when it's implied that I lack empathy, compassion or understanding, because I've been there and actually helped someone through it. I had no experience of it prior, it was my first relationship too. So yeah, that does upset me slightly actually, not that anyone here would believe that or care.. because I'm a misogynistic nazi sympathizer, apparently.

In this particular case I think it's quite pertinent to question their motives simply because of the vast sums of money involved.

 

[spacejunk]

Can we not go down the nonsense route of 'male privilege' and 'misogynistic' please, it's ridiculous. I know you have this image in your head of what you think I'm like as a person but as I've always maintained you are way, way off the mark. It's OK for people to have different attitudes, perspectives and convictions.. just because they don't all immediately fall into the neat little order you have in your head doesn't make them wrong, right-wing, or [insert bashing term here].

I don't think it's ridiculous to call this male privilege. far from it.

Do you know what happens to a person who is convicted of rape, especially one who isn't guilty? It completely fucks their life up, permanently. Even if evidence comes to light that they were falsely accused they're never going to be able to rebuild their life or get that time back, their reputation, their career, house, wife, whatever. It's all done.

Hence why if someone makes the charge they have to take it seriously. What would you rather happen? They just take their word at face value without any sort of process or protocol? If the police and courts are going to ruin a mans life permanently they need good evidence. It's a serious accusation and a serious crime, with a serious penalty if convicted, but even just involving the accused can affect their life greatly before even getting to trial. It's not alright to say that is alright, just because we're talking about rape. Yes rape is horrific, but we have this principle of innocent until proven guilty.. it is the absolute foundation of our legal system and there is nothing that will ever convince me we should abandon or modify it, because it is the one thing standing between the public and a state that becomes all powerful and tyrannical.

i don't know why you're talking about evidence - i'm very much aware of how much false rape accusations damage people. i've seen it firsthand.
and i've already acknowledged that point -

It's a super sensitive subject (for accusers and accuses alike) and i think it is important to respect both the assumption of innocence and sincerity of accusation.

but what doesn't make sense is why you're even bringing up false accusations. as jess says, putting the resposibility of this - and the doubt - on the victims makes people generally less likely to report rape.

you seem to offer a lot of sympathy for the accused - in fact, in every point you've made, you seem to be siding with him.
what's the deal with that?

Yeah, I have. My first long term girlfriend, who I helped through it. And every other woman I've been with, except the last but I only met her twice so who knows.. it may be 100%. So yeah, I know. I've seen the damage and tried to help these women. There was also a difference between those who had put themselves in a stupid situation and those who were grabbed physically by a complete stranger, in terms of their mental state. Regardless, I'm aware of what it does to a person and also to those around them, family and friends. It took it out of me trying to help my first long term girlfriend get through it.

you don't know that. unless you personally have been raped by a stranger, and also raped by someone you are familiar with - you have absolutely no right to make a claim like that.
even if you had experienced both type of rape, you can only speak for yourself.

the implication, that types of trauma are relative, and that some experiences are subjectively more harmful than others is just totally false.
i'm amazed that you're trying to argue otherwise.

So by all means question my motives and slate my attitude as misogynistic or whatever. You don't know me at all.

i do think your attitude is distinctly misogynistic. it doesn't matter that i don't know you, i read what you post here, and it is consistent.

Well you know what, the kind of clothing that a lot of women choose to wear today would 60 years ago put them straight into the prostitute or slut category.

well, you know what? who gives a fuck?

Now you may say "well cultural attitudes have shifted", and they have no question about that, but you know what hasn't shifted? The fact that men have a very close link between vision and sexual arousal. Yes women should be allowed to wear what they like, it doesn't automatically make them a slut, and it doesn't make them fair game or anything like that. But you are still dressing like a whore at the end of the day. You choose to emphasize physical features that men find sexually arousing, you're going to arouse men.. it's pretty straight forward. You can not expect men to change their biological nature to suit your cultural attitudes of what you'd like the world to be like.. it's never going to happen, and it's backwards to even try.

wow.

rape isn't about arousal, it is about power.
what you're saying is classic victim-blaming.
i don't know why you post things like that, then get so worked up when i use words like "male privilege" or "misogyny" (i think that was one of yours, i don't remember saying that) another term i would use to describe the paragraph above, however, is "rape apologist".

they're just words, it's how i convey meaning. you don't have to like those words, but to me they seem accurate and appropriate.

See my point to Alaisdarim. You're right, there is no need for a criminal inquiry into their motives, that's not what I was suggesting and it's a ridiculous assertion. What I meant was a general line of inquiry, from a purely thinking point of view and not a criminal one.

that is utter nonsense.
people that have accused someone of raping them need privacy, not a "general line of inquiry, from a purely thinking point of view". what is that anyway? a witch hunt?

You're also right, there is no excuse for the fact that someone chose to rape her (or him). But that's not the point. If you put yourself in a dangerous situation then whilst that doesn't make you a criminal it should at least get you thinking about your own motivations, attitudes or whatever that led you to be so naive or shortsighted to the dangers.

this is just so completely wrong. i'm amazed that there are still people that think like this.

 

[JessFR]

Not every abuse victim is the same. And the feelings and emotions abuse victims feel are very complex and I think you're failing to fully comprehend them, which is ok. And failing to comprehend that you're not comprehending it, which isn't as ok. And obviously I was talking about the attitudes like yours held by broader society. No one individual is the problem, but all of them contribute. And yes, it does matter because when people like you voice these attitudes, it increases the not entirely inaccurate perception that much if society in general is like you. And by extension, why take your rapist to trial if people like you will make up the jury? There are subtle influences like that all over the place that stem from your attitudes.

Their motives are irrelivent. Either what they said happened or it didn't. The courts will determine that. We as observers don't know all the facts and we as observers would be bettering society and the victims of sex crimes by either siding with the victims and not going out of our way to find selfish motives, or voicing no view at all. But nobody is served by voicing views such as yours. It does nothing but cause harm by perpetuating a culture that tries to find what the victim did wrong. It is irrelivent.

Your helping your ex girlfriends doesn't mean you have empathy in this situation. Empathy would be understanding the highly complex motivations and feelings that the victims could well be feeling and that victims tend to feel, of which I see none demonstrated.

I don't think you're a misogynist or a nazi sympathizer. I think you are experiencing a failure to empathize properly. Which isn't the same as feeling sympathetic to your ex's. And I think in failing to comprehend and empathize your desire to take a stand against what perhaps you see as overly left wing PC feminism ignoring wrong doing by the victins, and in taking a stand aim to speak a more balanced and accurate assessment of the situation is resulting in you coming off like a victim blaming asshole to the rest of us.

That's what I think. And before the mods get pissed at me, he did ask what I thought his motivations were. And all I said was it's how he comes across not that it's true.

 

[-=SS=-]

I'm not going to feign empathy for people who are thousands of miles away that I have no actual connection with what so ever, who I know absolutely nothing about them and all that I do know is coming from media sources. Until they are real people in my life or in the lives of those I do know then it's all just words and stories on a page, I'm not going to allow myself to get worked up over people I have no real connection with. It's not that I don't care.. if they were in my life I would, I just have so many fucks to give that's all and I choose to save them for those who are real to me. We can talk about the issues surrounding the whole deal without having to be emotionally involved.

You say I'm contributing by my subtle influences, then you have to acknowledge that the people involved in the actual situation also contribute by their subtle influences too. It's pretty insulting to suggest the victims are at absolutely no fault what so ever, despite being the ones actually there, and somehow I'm at fault with thousands of others despite being thousands of miles away with no connection to it what so ever! Where is the logic in that.

you seem to offer a lot of sympathy for the accused - in fact, in every point you've made, you seem to be siding with him.
what's the deal with that?

The deal with that is you're seeing something that isn't there. I haven't sided with him at all, hence the 'he most likely is a sexual deviant' comments I've made a few times now. Again you're painting a picture that just isn't there. Just because I'm questioning the context and motivations of the victims doesn't mean I'm automatically siding with the accused. There has been absolutely no sympathy towards him in any of my posts or siding with him. If you want to pick apart my points that's fine but please stop accusing me of stuff that just isn't true.

You're way too sensitive about this though. You don't know these people. The fuck does it matter if we talk about the context of the situation. It should not be taboo to have a discussion about sensitive topics and there shouldn't be an automatic shielding of people from being examined. Is this a discussion, or is this just a hysterical emotional circle jerk?

you don't know that. unless you personally have been raped by a stranger, and also raped by someone you are familiar with - you have absolutely no right to make a claim like that.
even if you had experienced both type of rape, you can only speak for yourself.

I have ever right to make a claim like that. I was intimately involved with these women and I sensed a distinct flavor, for lack of a better word, in their mental states. They were all deeply wounded, but the ones who had experienced it from total strangers had a different vibe to their mental state. It was my observation and experience. You can doubt my observations if you want, that's fine, but don't tell me I have no right to state my personal observations thank you very much.


You can brush over the point about clothing if you want, which is a shame because there is a very valid point in there. Unfortunately I sense your attitude is actually pretty common place now where cultural contexts and biological realities have become completely disconnected. If women want to dress like sluts that's fine, it's their right and they don't deserve anything for it.. but it doesn't change the fact you are dressed like a slut and it's going to generate a reaction in males. Expecting men not to react is insanity. It's hardwired.

If we want to talk about subtle influences then a good place to start would be with modern fashion and our hyper-sexualised culture. Or is that off limits too, because women can do no wrong?..

 

[AloeOne]

You almost had a solid post there worthy of debating.. until you started to go down the patriarchy, male privilege route. I refuse to engage on that area because it leads nowhere.

Victims of sexual assault are not culpable for the crime, no. That isn't really disputable, as they haven't committed a crime. However that does not absolve them from potentially putting themselves in a dangerous situation, which isn't a criminal offense of course but is worthy of discussion none the less. Whether it be clothing, state of mind (drunk) or whatever.

I refer you once again to 10 U.S. Code § 920 - Art. 120. Rape and sexual assault generally

(b)Sexual Assault.—Any person subject to this chapter who—
(3) commits a sexual act upon another person when the other person is incapable of consenting to the sexual act due to—
(A) impairment by any drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance, and that condition is known or reasonably should be known by the person;

(8 )Consent.—
(A) The term “consent” means a freely given agreement to the conduct at issue by a competent person. An expression of lack of consent through words or conduct means there is no consent. Lack of verbal or physical resistance or submission resulting from the use of force, threat of force, or placing another person in fear does not constitute consent. A current or previous dating or social or sexual relationship by itself or the manner of dress of the person involved with the accused in the conduct at issue shall not constitute consent.

Apologies if I gave you the wrong impression... When I said sexual assault victims are not culpable I mean that it is not the victims fault in any way and they bear NO responsibility for the violence someone chose to commit against them. The criminal code is really quite clear on this: no explicit consent = sexual violence.

I also have to disagree with you about the value of the "male privilege, patriarchy route"... I've been teasing out some patterns in your posts and I think I have some insight you (or others) might find interesting.

For what its worth, I do believe that you did your best to understand and support your ex through her experience of sexual trauma and this experience had a lasting impact on you.

With that said... It seems to me like you don't want to engage with discussions of male privilege, patriarchy and misogyny because you don't benefit from validating them as concepts or discourse. Lets talk a little bit about oppression as a concept:

Oppression is the experience of repeated, widespread, systemic injustice. It need not be extreme and involve the legal system ... nor violence ... Civilized oppression ... refers to the vast and deep injustices some groups suffer as a consequence of often unconscious assumptions and reactions of well-meaning people in ordinary interactions which are supported by the media and cultural stereotypes as well as by the structural features of bureaucratic hierarchies and market mechanisms. ... oppressions are systematically reproduced in the major economic, political and cultural institutions. While specific privileged groups are the beneficiaries of the oppression of other groups, and thus have an interest in the continuation of the status quo, they do not typically understand themselves to be agents of oppression.

Maybe I'll expand more on that another day, but here's how I see your attitudes:

This recent incident of many reported sexual assaults is a surface issue for you. You have openly admitted that the man in question is likely guilty, and that the hollywood environment would lend itself to sexual violence (boys will be boys, amirite?). From this I gather that you are not concerned with the defense of this specific man. While you don't seem to care about the potential harm he caused you also don't seem to care about what happens to him next.

What seems to be bothering you about this is a deeper issue... The fear that Those Women Out There are abusing their Social Powers to wrongfully accuse and profit from Innocent Men^TM and male lives will be ruined as a result. Really, again... This is some nonsense myth, the boogyman of persecuted masculinity. The reality is that coming out publicly as a victim of sexual violence opens you up to a shitstorm carnival of bullshit, much like the one you have provided us here. Women don't do this because they want your money, they do this because they were attacked and victimized.

Really, I suspect you feel unsettled because patriarchal power structures in society are being challenged and that is threatening to you on some deep level. Just like you don't stand to increase or maintain your male privilege by engaging/validating discussion about these topics, your privilege can't benefit from supporting these women by believing them.

This brings me to my next point: you don't value the perspectives of women as reliable and accurate, at least in comparison to men. I think you were able to support your exes because you were able to put your finger in the wound, so to speak. For you its valid sexual assault when you say its valid sexual assault... aaaaand thats not how that works.

Also don't even start with that pseudo-evolutionary-psychology rape apologist nonsense... I'll bet you a psychology degree you're talking out of your ass

I don't write out all this for your sake, by the way. I can tell you're dedicated to that deaf ear of yours. I'm putting all this here for the other people who read this thread. I do recommend you re-read the US Criminal Code I linked above... Though if someone were to have misogynist, rape apologist, victim blaming positions I can see why it might be challenging to digest.

Once again, shoutouts to those fighting the reasonable, empathetic, open-minded, etc fight lol. Peace!

 

[-=SS=-]

AloeOne:

It's great that you took the time to psychoanalyze me and fit your diagnosis into your own particular concept structure. I wouldn't quit your day job to become a psychologist just yet.

It's not a nonsense myth that men have their lives ruined by false allegations of rape, what world do you live in? A quick google search will return you plenty of stories. And those are just the ones the media has picked up, and which women have been convicted for. There's probably more men than you realize sitting in cells right now who are innocent of the crime they've been banged up for. That isn't really the thrust of my interest in this story/thread though.. it happens, it's a reality, but it's not the angle I'm coming from or trying to get to.

Nothing to do with the male patriarchy or male privilege either, or 'bros before hoes'. I don't really care to talk about that topic because it's a total non-issue that's been fabricated by idiot feminists who just can't accept the fact that men and women are not equal, and are using it as a propaganda tool to advance their warped agenda.

 

[alasdairm]

Well you know what, the kind of clothing that a lot of women choose to wear today would 60 years ago put them straight into the prostitute or slut category. Now you may say "well cultural attitudes have shifted", and they have no question about that, but you know what hasn't shifted? The fact that men have a very close link between vision and sexual arousal. Yes women should be allowed to wear what they like, it doesn't automatically make them a slut, and it doesn't make them fair game or anything like that. But you are still dressing like a whore at the end of the day. You choose to emphasize physical features that men find sexually arousing, you're going to arouse men.. it's pretty straight forward. You can not expect men to change their biological nature to suit your cultural attitudes of what you'd like the world to be like.. it's never going to happen, and it's backwards to even try.

i believe that nothing a woman wears ever makes it somehow ok under any circumstances ever to sexually assault or rape her. ever.

your true colors are starting to shine through...

aside, why did you choose to change the spelling of my username? genuinely interested to understand.

alasdair

 

[Scrofula]

I wonder what you [Mr. SS] consider "idiot feminists" warped agenda to be? How does it tie in with your overt racism? I'm scared to ask what you think about gays and gender non-conforming, but that's probably in your post history too.

So how do you rank your humans and sub-humans, in order of inferiority? White Straight-Acting Male (English-speaking) > White Women (non-slutty ones) > White Queers > Non-white males > Feminists > FTM (better than MTF, obviously) > and I have trouble where you put Blacks in relation to Muslims. Either way that's an awful lot of agendas all conspiring against you, the innocent white male who stands the same risk of getting raped by his boss or shot by the police.

But if you don't want to humor me there, maybe you could explain why false accusations of rape would happen any more often or be any greater risk than for any other crime? A quick visit to your local prison and you'll find out every man in there was falsely accused.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

So how do you rank your humans and sub-humans, in order of inferiority? White Straight-Acting Male (English-speaking) > White Women (non-slutty ones) > White Queers > Non-white males > Feminists > FTM (better than MTF, obviously) > and I have trouble where you put Blacks in relation to Muslims. Either way that's an awful lot of agendas all conspiring against you, the innocent white male who stands the same risk of getting raped by his boss or shot by the police.

Men, according to SS, can't stop themselves from raping if they see a thong. Wouldn't that indicate that men are nothing more than unthinking animals, and thus should be ranked last?

 

[alasdairm]

...idiot feminists who just can't accept the fact that men and women are not equal

of course they're not equal. i don't think even some feminists believe they are. but they should be treated equally which is all (most of them) are asking.

this (deliberate) mischaracterization is common and it speaks to the validity of the point.

ss, do you believe a woman who does the same job as a man and does it equally well - let's assume a 'black box' where the results of the work are presented blind and there's no way you could know whether the work was done by a man or a woman e.g. preparation of an accurate balance sheet for a massive, fortune 500 company - should be paid the same for doing the same job? it is a simple enough question so a simple yes or now should do, thanks.

alasdair

 

[Blue_Phlame]

Well, it's illegal for companies to pay people differently for the same job based on sex. Men and women are paid the same for the same jobs.

 

[Scrofula]

But alisdair, maybe a single balance sheet is worth the same, but you ignore the vast difference in output! A woman will spend half the day asking for reassurance and adjusting her makeup, when she's not menstruating, of course.


ETA: BP I do not believe such a law exists in the US.

(It sure doesn't exist in the corporate world. Except in that case the Ex was paid more.)

 

[cduggles]

Well, it's illegal for companies to pay people differently for the same job based on sex. Men and women are paid the same for the same jobs.

What??? Not in the US or for the vast majority of the world's labor (ask Ivanka).

 

[JessFR]

Yeah it's illegal to do it based on sex. So you don't do it based on sex. You do it as part of a complex series of negotiations that just happen to result in women being paid less. Nothing wrong about that right?

 

[Scrofula]

I'm pretty sure that's limited to housing and hiring, not wage or salary. But yeah, "same job" gets murky real fast.

 

[David Wooderson]

I'm very happy to see the whole anti fat shame trend disappear with Harvey's alleged crimes.

Almost every article takes a shot at his obesity, and I say good!

So nice to see people dropping the whole healthy at any size myth.

The reality is it is very fiscally healthy for a subsidized healthcare system to have a half dead fatty populace to have lifetime medical treatments, that healthy young people had to pay the brunt of.

Rape (and uh, "true rape" - whatever that is) happens in every country. There is a lot of racist bullshit about rape and "foreigners", but it's just a typically dismissive expression of xenophobia and paternalistic sexism.
"They're raping our women!" has been an excuse for racist hostility for a long time. The use of rape accusations against whole populations of people (say, Muslims and Mexicans) is just the latest in a long history of excuses for ostracising people (and worse)

The sad irony, of course, is that one of the things that trump campaigned on was a claim that Mexico is flooding the US with men that commit acts of sexual violence.
It is hard to understand rape as something that happens in your community or your culture (as if, y'know - it's not something "we" do; it must be part of the toxic culture imported from somewhere else by "them"; not "us") but unfortunately, sexual abuse happens seemingly everywhere.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't drug prohibition introduced initially to ""stop "black men" (on drugs from non-anglo cultures ) raping "white women"?
It's just another myth borne out of the intersection of racism and patriarchy that is colonialism.

Truth is though, there are probably fucked up rapists in all cultures - but they thrive most in cultures that have no basic human mututal respect. Hollywood is a classic example of that sort of toxic culture, where power is wielded shamelessly and people are considered expendable and replaceable.

What is this obsession with race?

By constantly getting on your high horse and signalling your virtue at every opportunity, you weaken your base's stance.

How tf do you take what I said having anything to do with race?

By true rape I meant the forcing of intercourse.

 

[swilow]

A huge impediment against reporting rape is the fear of victims being considered responsible and having to justify their own behavior publicly. "She was asking for it" does not fly. The victim of a crime is never responsible for the crime.

 

[David Wooderson]

A huge impediment against reporting rape is the fear of victims being considered responsible and having to justify their own behavior publicly. "She was asking for it" does not fly. The victim of a crime is never responsible for the crime.

100% true qft

However people do lie and as a result it muddies the waters for all legitimate rape cases.

 

[Scrofula]

Dave I feel like you come here solely to scour for any hint of hypocrisy or double standard, as if finding some proves a point you have that you never articulate.

If I make a fat joke after scolding someone for making a racist joke, does it mean victory for the Tea Party or something? Is it a sign that your idea of what "political correctness" is, is a fraud after all, so you were in the right to leer at the secretary?

Nobody here speaks for the English-speaking world's consensus on what's rude and inconsiderate; and it's not taking high moral ground to admonish outdated beliefs.

ETA: and then you double-down on the "legitimate rape". Just what reaction are you hoping for?