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2017 Trump Presidency Thread

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Unlawful Military Orders

Unlawful Orders

An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyedbut obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders -- if the order was illegal.

"I was only following orders," has been unsuccessfully used as a legal defense in hundreds of cases (probably most notably by Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg tribunals following World War II). The defense didn't work for them, nor has it worked in hundreds of cases since.

It's clear, under military law, that military members can be held accountable for crimes committed under the guise of "obeying orders," and there is no requirement to obey orders which are unlawful. However, here's the rub: A military member disobeys such orders at his/her own peril. Ultimately, it's not whether or not the military member thinks the order is illegal or unlawful, it's whether military superiors (and courts) think the order was illegal or unlawful.

An order to perform a dangerous mission is lawful because it's not an order to commit a crime.
 
I hate the idea that the US military (and allies) should "deal with" North Korea.
Their government may be scary, but frankly, most are.

To me, the idea that hundreds of thousands of innocent people should die because of the two opposing political forces can't co-exist without belligerent chest-thumping is just madness.
North Korea would never attack the USA - it would be (literal) suicide.
The only way i can see it happening is if they are backed into a corner and figure they're fucked anyway.

Trump is a dangerous madman. Easily the most dangerous American president.
This is not a wise way to go about reversing the fortunes of his unpopular and shambolic administration.
Deeply concerning.
 
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No other governments are threatening the USA with a nuclear strike though are they sj?
Don't assume someone wouldn't do something because of consequences, no one knows for sure if Kim is even sane.
If he's not then I doubt the consequences of his actions will come into his thought process, also kim would prob be in a good position to survive any counter attacks and sympathy for his people might not be enough to make him not do anything.
 
And you think Trump is the person in the world who is going to stop NK, at all costs, I presume - so that you feel better?
No I actually wish China & Sth Korea could do it themselves.

Whatever ideas he might have had you have to understand that this is not only between two countries. But you don't care about that, do you?
Well actually all 10 temporary and 5 permanent members of the UN approved the latest sanctions, including Russia & China. Even China said NK is on their own if they fire a missile at another country (the one thing I dread is a deep-state false flag in order to bait or force Trump into an attack). Our allies South Korea depend on us and the US is, for better or for worse the closest thing we have to a global enforcer. I always wish that they wielded that power in honor of truth and justice (some people believe they still do lol)

but because he's dangerous, toxic.
oh shit a new accusation. Trump is now too radioactive and must be impeached immediately.


To me, the idea that hundreds of thousands of innocent people should die because of the two opposing political forces can't co-exist without belligerent chest-thumping is just madness.
Every American politician that voted for the Iraq sanctions that killed hundreds of thousands of women and children for no good reason, should be imprisoned.
If NK sends a missile close to Guam then the US will strategically tomahawk their military facilities. Shouldn't be too many casualties.

Trump is a dangerous madman. Easily the most dangerous American president.
He has a lot more murdering to do to catch up to Dubya (or the real commander at the time Cheney).
 
Correction:

Can Trump launch a nuke?

Apparently, following lawful and unlawful orders don't have much to do with launching nuclear bombs.

There's really only way to stop it: Section 4 of the 25th Amendment of the Constitution - which has never been used.

That section allows for the vice president, together with a majority of cabinet heads or Congress, to declare the President disabled and unfit to execute the duties of the office. The vice president, which in this case would be either Trump's running mate, Mike Pence, or Clinton's running mate, Tim Kaine, would have to submit a written declaration to the Speaker of the House and President pro tempore of the Senate explaining why the president was unable to fulfill his duties. If approved, the vice president would then take over.

Apologies about previous primer on following unlawful orders. This is so much scarier!!
 
I personally don't think it would be difficult to show Trump's unfitness in order to make that order.
 
oh shit a new accusation. Trump is now too radioactive and must be impeached immediately.
Not an accusation at all, just describing how Trump behaved, pretty unstable and contradictory most of the times. That's enough to get a lot of people around the globe concerned.
 
Don't forget, Trump doesn't know what numbers to dial or even who to ask for if he wanted to bomb somebody. Some loyal advisor or Ivanka has to tell him.

So that's a helpful buffer right there.


Oh shit a new accusation. Trump is now too radioactive and must be impeached immediately.

Nah, nothing new! I said a hundred times he's been violating the Constitution since the moment he took office by failing to divest from his foreign holdings. You run a tight ship on State Dept. emails, I'm sure you have a similar attitude toward the fuckin' Constitution, right?

He was warned and memo-ed and threatened, and did nothing but a presser or two; but his party has the majority, so he wasn't impeached immediately and removed.

It's the biggest conflict of interest possible, FFS.
 
Reminds me of:

Fisher was known for a unique idea towards nuclear deterrence. In a March 1981 paper, while discussing the importance on reaching a "wise decision", especially in terms of nuclear arms, he suggested implanting the nuclear launch codes in a volunteer. If the President of the United States wanted to activate nuclear weapons, he would be required to kill the volunteer to retrieve the codes.

My suggestion was quite simple: Put that needed code number in a little capsule, and then implant that capsule right next to the heart of a volunteer. The volunteer would carry with him a big, heavy butcher knife as he accompanied the President. If ever the President wanted to fire nuclear weapons, the only way he could do so would be for him first, with his own hands, to kill one human being. The President says, “George, I’m sorry but tens of millions must die.” He has to look at someone and realize what death is—what an innocent death is. Blood on the White House carpet. It’s reality brought home.

When I suggested this to friends in the Pentagon they said, “My God, that’s terrible. Having to kill someone would distort the President’s judgment. He might never push the button.“

— Roger Fisher, via Wikipedia.
 
I'd say a blowtorch would be more accurate, leaving the volunteer briefly alive but missing a good portion of his skin--but then you lose some of the eye contact that makes it work. Wow, hadn't heard that.
 
so I'm really curious what all the Trump people think of him using, and repeating for emphasis, the phrase "many sides" when talking about a nazi terrorist attacking Americans. Thoughts?
 
so I'm really curious what all the Trump people think of him using, and repeating for emphasis, the phrase "many sides" when talking about a nazi terrorist attacking Americans. Thoughts?

Did I miss a nazi terrorist? OH, do you mean that church bombing?

(Still can't quite make it back to news consumption. Something happened in January, around the 20th, just kept passing out or vomiting.)
 
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