New member; dealing with withdrawal

[ImCorpse]

Hey bl, been using this site for years but have never posted anything. I've been battling this back and forth with heroin for a long time, trying to get off for almost two years now.

Right now I'm going through withdrawal, eased using high doses of loperamide. This works very well for me, even with a high iv tolerance to H, but it still has not been easy in the mental aspect.

I have been switching from H to lope for the past 3 weeks, like I used to with suboxone, before that stopped working and I would start to precipitate wd every time (even after waiting over 24 hours). I got terrified of bupe, and still am. It no longer works the way it used to for me.

So right now I'm back on the loperamide and it's been over 24 hours since my last dose of H. Feeling mild withdrawal symptoms ( i can't believe how well this works for physical symptoms) but my mental state is a mess and I can't stop thinking about using. I keep beating myself up for going back to H but I seem to be very weak and buckle this time around. I've had multiple times clean before, with 4 months being the longest, but I can't seem to stay away this time. I just want to use the lope and be done with it before that becomes another problem in itself.

I know how well loperamide works for me and that is a dangerous thing. I know that I can use heroin and not be sick after by dosing with the lope, so this safety net is perpetuating my heroin use. I'm sure that just like the suboxone, this to will stop working if I keep abusing it.

I'm filled with fear right now from the war in my head and really trying not to go score some H.

Im not sure where im going with this, just making my presence here known I guess. This forum has helped me so much throughout the years and felt like I can maybe be a part of it.

 

[Jabberwocky]

You sounds like you would benefit a lot more from the full agonism of methadone (it is more effective for dealing with cravings than buprenorphine or loperamide) and the structure of the clinic environment.

High dose loperamide use carries with it a whole host of potential very serious side effects like cardiotoxicity and shouldn't be used as a long term solution.

How much loperamide are you using?

 

[herbavore]

Welcome to TDS.

Do you feel like you are at a different place in your life this time, ImCorpse? It is easy to get discouraged but with a few different ways of looking at things, maybe you can turn a corner on that. A two year battle represents a lot of strength and stamina and even hope--those are all essential and you have proven them to be alive and well!

What is your life like right now? Do you have support? Are you under a lot of stress besides the WDs and PAWS?

 

[ImCorpse]

I'm using up to 80mg of loperamide a day. Not daily though. Usually every other day, in one dose. I have never tried methadone, and there are a few clinics nearby. I just read so much about the detox from methadone that I never thought it of an option.

 

[ImCorpse]

Thanks herbavore. This time around I've been dealing with constant stress and depression. Having to deal with moving, being alone and thinking about my wife still out there "working" to find her habit. We've been separated for months now but the wds have me thinking about every single thing and that feeling of "Your entire world has gone to shit"

It's hard to look back two years at all the failed attempts and fine any sort of good out of it, especially right now.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm using up to 80mg of loperamide a day. Not daily though. Usually every other day, in one dose. I have never tried methadone, and there are a few clinics nearby. I just read so much about the detox from methadone that I never thought it of an option.

That is a far bit of loperamide. Using methadone or buprenorphine would be much safer and easier on your body. Have you tried a buprenorphine program before? If not I'd suggest trying that before methadone, but if you have and it didn't work for you, I'd suggest trying methadone for at least six months. Most people do the best on methadone when they plan on taking it for about two years however.

When used properly and a taper is used to get off it, it is just as safe to use as buprenorphine and the withdrawal is very manageable. You only hear from people who struggle to get off it generally, about how bad it can be when it isn't used properly. I used methadone for 2.5 years and it was what finally enabled me to stop using heroin and really make progress in my recovery. Coming off it was relatively easy, much easier than most folks make it out to seem. I tapered over the course of about nine months and experienced very few effects of withdrawal when I came off (I did have access to the kind of comfort medication that should be used for detoxing however - and it was relatively painless, just some mild insomnia - nothing like normal withdrawal).

The methadone clinic is a highly structured environment, and methadone maintenance therapy (or even a six month extended detox) is really a big commitment. The structure and commitment to recovery that it requires however is just what a lot of people need to get clean.

 

[ImCorpse]

That is a far bit of loperamide. Using methadone or buprenorphine would be much safer and easier on your body. Have you tried a buprenorphine program before? If not I'd suggest trying that before methadone, but if you have and it didn't work for you, I'd suggest trying methadone for at least six months. Most people do the best on methadone when they plan on taking it for about two years however.

Yes I've used suboxone/subutex many times. I've done very short tapers (5 days) and maintenance, as well as abusing it and using it as my "safety net". When I first started using bupe it worked very well. I would be able to dose with very mild wds (around 12 hours) and be perfectly fine. As my tolerance got higher, the wds came on much faster, and the bupe would send me into precipitated wd. It got to the point where I was absolutely terrified of the drug. I would wait 24+ hours and still end up going through precip. wd. Now, It's incredibly hard for me to wait the correct amount of time before i can start dosing with bupe. I've used the COWS sheet and always think I'm ready, experiencing pretty heavy wd symptoms (extremely dilated pupils, cold sweats, gooseflesh, INSANE rls, anxiety and depression/paranoia).

Six months seems like a long time for a taper, but I have zero experience with methadone so I have no idea. I'm used to doing short tapers with suboxone now, but I just replaced that with the loperamide. I am worried about the dosage and risk involved with taking that much lope. I always figured "hey, at least it's not heroin" but taking 40 pills at a time is starting to get to me, and I have been reading more on the dangers of it and really would like to stop using it altogether.

I also have very little experience with getting drug's through pharmacies/clinics or prescriptions, other than treatment centers/detox clinics. The whole process would be new to me.

Random side note. I'm 28 years old and started using hard drug's recreationally when I was 16. Heroin for about 5 years.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yeah, you sounds like you'd really benefit from the structure and rigor of a MMT program. Basically the six month extended taper to multiple year commitment to maintenance on methadone is only to help stabilize you on a medication and keep you away from the ups and downs associated with constantly having to deal with being in withdrawal and living a lifestyle associated with the illegal/improper use of medication and substances like heroin.

I mean, if you realistically thought you could use loperamide to detox for a week or two, I'd say try that. But realistically, given how long you've been involved with opioid use, this doesn't sound like it is what is going to happen. Chances are, you will end up getting drawn back to using. A MMT program eliminate this issue, keeping you on a dose of medication that keeps you from craving opioids and still allows you to feel "good" (a mild buzz, much more enjoyable than buprenorphine when an ideal dose that doesn't have too many side effects is found). This enables you to start working on restructuring your life in terms of education, career, family, friends, your hobbies and your overall health so you can work towards a point where you don't feel the need to use opioids at all to feel good.

The stability of methadone maintenance is what allow folks to achieve success, because it eliminates the issue of having to deal with cravings and all the bullshit associated with a lifestyle that requires you to devote a lot of time and effort to keep from getting sick or dealing with withdrawal. It allows you to devote all that time, energy and mental focus onto efforts to create the foundations for moving forward beyond harmful patterns of drug use.

It isn't easy - it's a lot of hard work in fact - but methadone based ORT programs are the most successful in terms of treating individuals with severe opioid use disorder such as you and I.

Let me know if you have any specific questions. Dealing with clinics can involve dealing with a lot of bullshit given how they are run, and particular the stigma, associated with methadone use. But when used properly and as long as you educate yourself about what the treatment involves, they are highly effective at empowering people to move beyond a lifestyle centered on opioid use.

 

[Erikmen]

Nicely put. Great post!

 

[Jabberwocky]

Despite the typos Thanks Erik!

Let me also say, given your age OP, you're at a perfect time in your life to really get down and work hard at overcoming the harms illicit opioid/heroin use has caused you. Folks tend to start having more success in their efforts at recovery in their late twenties and early to mid thirties, so this might be the perfect time to commit to really doing every you can to restructure the role substance using plays in your life.

 

[ImCorpse]

Thank you for all the support and information, everyone. And toothpaste, yeah id really like to get some more info about the clinic if you don't mind, I'll pm you (i know I'm limited being a greenlighter)

I never thought of using methadone before just from what i have read on it, and figured if I can't do it with suboxone then I definitely can't do it with methadone.

I agree with you 100% about the loperamide use. This is the first time I have used only loperamide and it really does work for me in terms of allievateting wd symptoms, but this has also been the first time my cravings and mental state have been this bad, and I just can't seem to stay away completely even while on the lope. I've been in this constant back and forth for close to a month now and getting very concerned about my loperamide usage. I never intended on using it for more than 4 or 5 days.

The constant dosing of h and back to lope had me thinking many different things, one was that I can't possibly doing as much damage than with the heroin, but I know that is not true. I felt that as long as I just did the one dose of lope right before the wds, and continued with a once daily dose for 4 or 5 days that I would be fine, but it has bow been this daily back and forth, using h for a day then lope for two. It's really taking a toll on me and I just feel like shit all day.

I really appreciate all the quick feedback and I'm actually quite overwhelmed to be talking with some of you. I have been using this forum for a long time and have seen a lot of your posts (Lol don't mean to sound weird or anything)

 

[Jabberwocky]

It's cool, Erik and I are kinda Recovery Support stars

Seriously, we actually have our own stalker (let's hope they don't see this and come back to life, knock on wood...).

But yeah, feel free to pm me and we can go from there. I have a few ideas for ya.

Keep your head up - like I said, this is the perfect time in your life in terms of your being in a great position to get a handle on your opioid use disorder!

 

[ImCorpse]

Haha, let's hope not

Well this is embarrassing. I can't seem to find out how to pm. I see the contact tab on the profile and it says something like "send instant message using..." with no tab to click on. I am using my phone if that matters. Not really much of a forum user. Well in the sense of making and account and posting, I use it all the time to look up stuff. The quote function bested me as well... -. -

I hit the quote option and it just keeps putting the first quote I used from your first or second post.

 

[ImCorpse]

Okay so I switched to the desktop site and I see the option to private message, but when I click on it, it comes up with a bulletin telling me that im allowed one pm every 180 minutes ( a little ridiculous) but no other option to click on like "next" or "continue" to get to the actual message portion. I have not sent any pms yet so that's not the problem.

 

[Jabberwocky]

After seeing your posts here just now I have sent you a pm ImCorpse. If you like we can connect on some anonymous chat app off-site until you get your post count up high enough around here to send pms more easily.