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2017 Trump Presidency Thread

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why would you bother? it will just, you know, prove that your claim is based in fact.

if you make a claim and can't/won't back it up, you have no credibility.

alasdair
 
SKL said:
Just a fun fact from history, and maybe a parable.

At one time in England, you could purchase a "baronetcy" from the government, with which came some land but most importantly the title of being able to be called "Sir," and considered the lowest, but still, real enough, in effect if not in degree of respect, members of the aristocracy. But you weren't really a Baron. It was a favourite of the bourgeois and noveau riche and was looked down upon. It was not inheritable. Later on, these increased in status and price but were eventually no longer sold and became heritable and the Baronets gaining more and more admittance to aristocracy, on more of a level to be able to interact, although of course within the strict limits of decorum and social protocol but becoming more so by the generation, with more and more highly noble and highly-titled people, up and including the House of Lords and even the royalty, before whom they were nothing, really, not real aristocrats, but people's who's unaristocratic ancestors, if not themselves, had been paid money to be admitted into a social strata.
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Have you seen a movie called Barry Lyndon, by Stanley Kubrick? You'd love it I think, it's a fine example of attempting to buy one's way into the aristocracy of the 18th century.
 
consumer said:
I think Ryan gave up any pretense of credibility a long time ago.
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2u948qp.jpg
 
David...anyone that votes for someone on the basis of it annoys people they dont like is a moron.

Anyone who repeatedly states they want to run people down in a car is a psychopath.

Someone who then backpedals on their multiple statements advocating violence is a liar.

You tick all these boxes
 
consumer said:
David...anyone that votes for someone on the basis of it annoys people they dont like is a moron.

Anyone who repeatedly states they want to run people down in a car is a psychopath.

Someone who then backpedals on their multiple statements advocating violence is a liar.

You tick all these boxes
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Thanks for the lulz consumer, I don't care what you think of me personally, which means I don't care what you believe either.

donald-trump-jesus-christ.png

^^^
What happens with every executive order
 
alasdairm said:
if jesus co-signed trump's travel ban eo, then he's pretty fallible as the 9th circuit stopped it :)

alasdair
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:D

David, you do not really believe that aherm hahaha Jesus is guiding Trump do you? Your answer is important, it will determine whether you require full-time nursing or not. ;)
 
Having recently returned to church attendance I was shocked how many people are on that bus. My first exposure was a bit traumatic, but I've gotten gentler now, I haven't made a single Trump supporter cry this month.
 
Now, Trump-as-good-Christian-knight or Trump-as-God's-chosen are not really narratives I can buy into; although for the latter point the Bible does say that God appoints (in some sense, or at least holds us in obligation to) leaders and we should honor and follow them (of course not into anything and everything they say or do, though! remembering this was written in a time when Christianity was a growing, controversial, and on-and-off persecuted sect in the Roman Empire, so it was quite a particular thing to say, give these leaders their secular due, slaves obey your masters, soldiers your captains, etc. but of course ultimately God is God and no leader can order you away from that), although that doesn't say anything about those leaders being good. Whatever pretensions or shout outs Trump gives to the bible-thumping crowd are just that, pretensions; although this is no different from Obama. Some of the real lunatic Protestant dispensational-premillenarianists are already talking about Trump as Antichrist and in the New World Order and what not, not that they didn't say that about Obama, Clinton (to some lesser extent), Gorbachev, and over 9,000 other leaders, I'm sure some are talking about Putin in the same way, etc, etc. But those people will try to stick that label and put all the conspiracy-mongering occult-symbolism on whoever (now I do not disagree that there is a lot of occult symbolism all over the place and that at least certain groups involved with Freemasonry, etc.—not talking about your local lodge where the good old boy network goes to smoke cigars or whatever by any means—but as far as these people take it is just lunacy), because nothing is good enough for people like [that], and the fundamental point of view is paranoiac, but not much lesser so (although expressed in markedly different terms) than various people on the Left.

The support for Trump (in the Republican primaries, anyway) amongst Evangelicals is rather surprising, given his lifestyle and crude public image, although there is the "blab-it-and-grab-it" "prosperity Gospel" contingent for whom God is supposed to be among other things an ATM machine and the wealthy are blessed, etc.; Catholics, OTOH, although many of us are affiliated with the Democratic party for historical reasons, despite their being vigorously pro-life, etc., were probably more likely to be troubled by the divorces, etc., but I think it's fair to say that he is not the candidate that was elected because of his apparent personal religious piety. He probably made even less a show of it than Obama which if anything makes him less of a hypocrite. GW Bush is an interesting case, of course, with his "becoming saved" and delivered from alcoholism, etc. a totally different, and perhaps more sincere thing, but, by far, religion is a lot of dog-whistling in politics in many cases, pace a number of members of the House and the Senate; Carter was probably our most serious Evangelical president in recent history (remember the Playboy article about "committing adultery in my heart" [cf. Matthew 5:27,28] and so on), even though his social agenda wasn't necessarily in line with most of the standards of political Evangelicalism. JFK of course remains our only RC president and his case may not really be all that different in terms of policy but he certainly did not live a pious lifestyle, exceeding even Clinton and Trump in concupiscence and adultery. Although Catholic social teaching is another matter and the Church itself is certainly neither of the left nor the right. Gingrich is now of course fairly a prominent convert to Catholicism and a good bit of that I can appreciate, of course, and there are hardcore political Protestant Evangelical/Charismatic/Fundamentailist types elsewhere in politics, Brownback, Bachman, Palin, and many more.

But, basically, I don't buy into any religious claims about Trump or by Trump, at the risk of judging another man's piety and heart, which I do not want to do, but I'm speaking on externalities only; but again, the teaching of the Bible and the Church is to submit to authorities who, even if they are bad, are in some way appointed by God, towards some ultimate teleological-eschatological angle, and that as such we honor them even if purely secular.

Trump's following among the so-called "Religious Right," though, is a bit puzzling to me, at least in the beginning, although eventually, of course, for everyone voting (inasmuch as voting matters, I don't believe it does and I don't vote myself, for mostly abstract political-philosophical reasons but also at least somewhat religious ones, as one voting for a politician could be considered to be a party to their more public sins, e.g., the support of things like abortion; it always would seem to be a grave offense and is often called so by the more traditional elements in the Church, to, as a nominal Catholic like Pelosi, take Communion when promoting abortion and marriage-redefinition and a whole other host of other evils; but also, for politicians who support grave socioeconomic injustices.) Not that I know of a practical option for them, though; Gingrich would have been my favorite, Carson would probably be closest strictly speaking to their worldview, but wouldn't stand a chance, Gingrich either, probably, but who knows. I would not go too far into the Trump-as-Hand-of-God idea, though, except of course as "authority is of God" (Romans 13) and so on.

alasdairm said:
as gandhi once observed: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

alasdair
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While the Imitation of Christ is an important spiritual exercise, we cannot be like Christ, ontologically, or in terms of moral perfection, we can only try, stumble at times ("missing the mark", like a wayward arrow, hamartia, the word translated as "sin" in the NT), and try again; this is, after all, why we need him as Saviour.
 
I like how Muhammad said this: "A people will not succeed who are commanded by a woman.",
but of course the Muslims in America wanted America to elect Clinton, a lot of them. Really following their prophet. Really on America's side, and convicted people. Good Muslims.

And then Jesus the tribalist, who was not "colorblind"- who refers to a Greek/Canaanite as a "dog", compared to his people.

Mark 7:24-30...

24 And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.

"25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:

26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first (of Israel) be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed."

No, the "racists" are the "bad" Christians.
 
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