can someone help explain these effects today using kratom and tramadol?

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

FROM MY DETOX DIARY (not going so well): http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/813619-About-to-do-a-Kratom-Detox

I'll post the full text emotions and all. I'm just curious as to why I reacted so strongly to a standard dose of kratom, plus a relatively standard dose of tramadol? Was it the choline? Is my stomach acid playing a role in anything? or even the carbs I ate? It was quite distressing... especially as a few days earlier 4 tramadol seemed like a minimum dose, with even room to add other drugs. But as mentioned, there was little kratom that day - just a touch of stem and vein.

Forgive the rambling nature of the post, I'm like that - plus I'm still fraggled from the experience.



drugs: 2.5g kratom, 250mg tramadol, 700mg choline bitratate, (semi serotonin syndrome inducing combo?) 20mg Diazepam and just now 240mg DHC and 240mg codeine phosphate (with little effect so far, due to acidic problems mentioned following I believe - these would normally have some reasonable effect, especially on top of any other opiates consumed that day)


Just wanted to document my flatline/zero success atm just to be honest about it.

I ordered 100 tramadol this week as I found over the weekend it helped, and it has multiple functions that help me in different ways. It's also a good Kratom replacement, and I have a rough idea how to use it in that way. But not practised it yet - as you will see.

Today I took 1 teaspoon of kratom in the morning around 10.30am, that was fine, and then I started to feel achy and WD started to creep in quite early around 12.45. It seems to creep in quite fast at the moment - I think I have a stomach acid problem that is fucking everything up. I was also getting extreme hunger acidic feelings.

so I popped 5 x 50mg tramadol. 250mg. Not an excessive dose, but I obviously didn't realise the context as I gave myself a weak level of serotonin syndrome and got some spasms and restless legs, probably the beginnings of the symptoms one would expect from a seizure.

Last week, I took some opium, some codeine, some morphine. All to take some days off kratom and (I hoped) to lower my kratom dosage. I also used these drugs as I needed to be in good form to get shit done and just wanted that positivity to keep going. Taper and detox took second place as it wrecks my sleep and productivity. I'm also now waiting on agmatine, memantine, and some other helpful meds to really make a new go at this taper. My current regimen has some major flaws. I previously mentioned the problems of loperamide and pregabalin..., Kava would be great if it was longer lasting, but no. And benzos... I treat extremely carefully.

My point is after those heavier opiates, I then switched to tramadol on following days, and it felt just right. NMDA action, stimulant, serotonin. Every base was covered and my head was clear and I was productive. Of course - I hadn't taken kratom properly for about 36 hours I guess. Maybe more. So there was no real cross interaction of serotogenic substances on a large scale.

Yesterday was a Kratom day, and this morning was a Kratom morning. I then took the 250mg tramadol within 3 hours of the kratom dose. It totally fucked me up. I've had to use valium to counter the spasms and the anxiety and restlessesness. 20mg - which is high for me, and still feel nothing but a slight abation of the negative symptoms. I also later added about 1-2 grams of inositol just for balance perhaps. I got sweaty, dilated pupils, cold, heart racing - all the symptoms of excess serotonin. I also became overwhelmingly sexually aroused, so had to indulge myself, it was very weird - I just wish I'd had a partner there it would have been much much better.

Last weekend, I had used 200mg easily, and had to top up with codeine. But today, it was an overdose. It felt dangerous. I'm very disappointed that I treated this "new" drug in my arsenal without the respect it deserved and I wanted to post the experience as a warning about taking kratom and tramadol too close together. I had also taken 700mg of choline bitratate and eaten a bunch of carbs on top of the trams. That may also have played a factor.

I'm now coming down off the trams and the serotonin saturation. Headache coming in, stomach acid is extremely high again to the point of nausea. This is probably related to my abuse of antacids and over eating carbs with other acidic foods. So my whole system is in flux and so is my headspace and my detox.

I'm going to take some time to stabilise, and to wait for my memantine, quinine, agmatine, low dose naltrexone and some other supports to arrive (hopefully proglumide) before I really resume a proper detox diary. I will post as much as I can, but want to take the pressure off to do the perfect detox so no real daily updates for now. I hate the idea of failure with everyone watching. I will also be changing my diet and stopping antacids because they are really ruining my perception of tolerance and hunger.


So, BE CAREFUL WHEN COMBINING KRATOM AND TRAMADOL - for me it was above 200mg and above 2.5g of strong kratom that led to issues, and I have a tolerance... supplements such as DLPA and Rhodiola and Choline may also all have a role. The first 2 were administered last night, the 2nd this morning. Benzos were probably a life saver to get out of the slight spasms and extreme agitation.

and BE CAREFUL WITH EXCESS USE OF ANTACIDS, it can only lead to rebound acidity, which if you decide to stop the antacids and don't change your diet, will leave you with horrible acidic stomach and a higher tolerance for drugs than you would wish for. That said, I have had stomach acid and other gastro problems for years, but never really understood them. So now is the time to figure that out. Apple Cider Vinegar literally helped the acidic feeling within seconds. At this point I would be unsure when to administer it around drug dosage though.

 

[serotonin2A]

The dose of tramadol you are taking is a very high dose, not a standard dose.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

I took 4 trams when I was opiate naive and it was the first time. I didn't feel any negative effects then.

I also took a shitload of trams on a night out a few years ago when I first found them, and took many other drugs around the same time including cocaine, speed, ketamine, alcohol. Never any negative effects. I might be lucky and tramadol works slightly differently with me. But... I have never used them with such an opiate tolerance as I have now, which is not exactly massive, but could lead to new complications I would not have come across in the past. Also kratom is a key issue here I think, due to it's serotogenic properties...

 

[serotonin2A]

I took 4 trams when I was opiate naive and it was the first time. I didn't feel any negative effects then.

I also took a shitload of trams on a night out a few years ago when I first found them, and took many other drugs around the same time including cocaine, speed, ketamine, alcohol. Never any negative effects. I might be lucky and tramadol works slightly differently with me. But... I have never used them with such an opiate tolerance as I have now, which is not exactly massive, but could lead to new complications I would not have come across in the past. Also kratom is a key issue here I think, due to it's serotogenic properties...

Whether or not you experienced negative effects is besides the point. The normal dose range of tramadol is 50-100 mg. Taking 250 mg is not likely to cause negative effects in most healthy adults, but it is a high dose of tramadol. Tramadol is not like other opioids where there is no upper limit on dosing. Some people are poor tramadol metabolizers and don't show much of a therapeutic response to tramadol, but they can still experience seizures.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

Whether or not you experienced negative effects is besides the point. The normal dose range of tramadol is 50-100 mg. Taking 250 mg is not likely to cause negative effects in most healthy adults, but it is a high dose of tramadol. Tramadol is not like other opioids where there is no upper limit on dosing. Some people are poor tramadol metabolizers and don't show much of a therapeutic response to tramadol, but they can still experience seizures.

my main points were that - it was within the range of dosages I had used in the past when opiate naive, I remember taking 4 tramadol the first time I was randomly given some for back pain by a family friends dad. I was quite happy for many hours, although a mild "heart in the mouth" type euphoria was the on the edge of uncomfortable - like I didn't deserve to feel that good or something. But that dosage range (100-200) was my normal for a time.

2nd'ly that I have abused them stupidly in a the past, and perhaps that is some context that might point to evidence that I have a higher seizure threshold than average when it comes to tramadol.

the last thing I will say is that medicine doesn't know exactly what's it's saying half the time. "Everybody is just winging it all of the time" comes to mind. The normal dose range is normal for what reason (rhetorical)? One persons normal is another's abnormal, but most importantly - many drugs are given normal dosages ranges based on many other variables. So if someone was taking something for bipolar, say lithium, and they were consuming 170mg that is their normal. But another person might find that dosage insane, and they might consume 1 - 9mg and call that normal for whatever they are using it for (neuro protective etc... [I'm still researching Lithium..])

I'm sure you know this and not disagreeing or looking for debate, I'm just making the point observation to exercise my mind I guess I'm re-reading right now and realise we are kind of saying the same thing on some level... anyways I'm currently very cynical about medicine at the moment, when it comes to mental health or chronic pain in particular. Dr's don't know what the fuck they are doing half the time, how should we feel confident that "normal" recommendations are in fact normal for us given all of the variables that you state and more.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

"...is besides the point"

also wanted to say, actually considering this is my thread, it is exactly the point!

I don't care about the normal range, I care about the effects on myself and why it might have affected me differently at different times, how to learn from that, and how to manage any further use safely.

 

[serotonin2A]

the last thing I will say is that medicine doesn't know exactly what's it's saying half the time. "Everybody is just winging it all of the time" comes to mind. The normal dose range is normal for what reason (rhetorical)? One persons normal is another's abnormal, but most importantly - many drugs are given normal dosages ranges based on many other variables. So if someone was taking something for bipolar, say lithium, and they were consuming 170mg that is their normal. But another person might find that dosage insane, and they might consume 1 - 9mg and call that normal for whatever they are using it for (neuro protective etc... [I'm still researching Lithium..])

This board is supposed to be about harm reduction, and your post described a behavior that is potentially dangerous. Hence why I pointed out that what you are describing as a normal dose of tramadol is actually a relatively high dose. You may not have had a negative outcome -- I'm glad you are OK -- but I think it is an important point to make for others who might read the post.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

This board is supposed to be about harm reduction, and your post described a behavior that is potentially dangerous. Hence why I pointed out that what you are describing as a normal dose of tramadol is actually a relatively high dose. You may not have had a negative outcome -- I'm glad you are OK -- but I think it is an important point to make for others who might read the post.

Thanks, yes I was being defensive and using the excuse to get overly philosophical about a few things that bug me about drugs and medicine in general. Most importanly I forgot one of the key points of this forum. I appreciate you pointing that out and reminding me. At the moment I am not a shining example of harm reduction practices. I could use a good lesson or 2 beyond just hurting myself and learning from my mistakes tbh (which is my "normal" way of doing things).

I think I was also annoyed at a 1 sentence answer for something that I was hoping someone would get right into the neurochemistry details about so I could learn something beyond essentially "just take less"

when I mentioned "standard dose", I meant standard recreational dose for myself.

It was a surprising discovery that this happened, whatever else there is to say about it.

I should learn to be more succinct I guess, then I might get more dialogue. thanks

 

[perpetualmotion288]

Whether or not you experienced negative effects is besides the point. The normal dose range of tramadol is 50-100 mg. Taking 250 mg is not likely to cause negative effects in most healthy adults, but it is a high dose of tramadol. Tramadol is not like other opioids where there is no upper limit on dosing. Some people are poor tramadol metabolizers and don't show much of a therapeutic response to tramadol, but they can still experience seizures.

The people that are poor metabolizers and experience less of a buzz are exactly the people that are most at risk of seizures.
Tramadol itself isn't much of an opiate but has high potential for causing seizures.
It's main metabolite doesn't have much potential for causing seizures but is a decent opiate.

Get minimal buzz, increase dose, possibly have seizures.

 

[Drink_Tea_Love_Cat]

The people that are poor metabolizers and experience less of a buzz are exactly the people that are most at risk of seizures.
Tramadol itself isn't much of an opiate but has high potential for causing seizures.
It's main metabolite doesn't have much potential for causing seizures but is a decent opiate.

Get minimal buzz, increase dose, possibly have seizures.

I see, that's quite interesting.

I think I get quite a response from tramadol. If I take into account this OP and also my aforementioned memory of using it when I was not a kratom/opiate addict and had a very low tolerance to most drugs. The sensations on the day of this OP were certainly scary enough for me to understand what comes next in the picture and to give this drug the respect it deserves. Intended use will be as substitution therapy once I have tapered to a low dose of kratom... then 3-7 days of tramadol, in small doses, then sober (hopefully). I have read anecdotal evidence to suggest that this is a fair method to combat kratom WDS. Theoretically it makes a bit more sense than switching to other (probably stronger) opiates, which was my original plan. Using it recreationally seems kind of stupid now that I think of it. It does certainly help me therapeutically though with SAD and "brain zaps" which are a related side effect to my anxiety disorder.

I'm curious. If we throw harm reduction out the window temporarily for arguments sake. If one were to take some dosage of loperamide in advance of tramadol admin. Would that potentiate tramadols opiate effects possibly without increasing it's seizure threshold? I have read that the predominant issue around tramadol seizures is to do with the serotonin function. Hence why my kratom dosage interfered with the tramadol perhaps. I have read some comments that refute this scaredy cat approach to tramadol, because it is only in certain situations that tramadol becomes a danger. Not in as many as people have been lead to believe through perpetuation of "common knowledge" that ANY drug with tramadol increases it's seizure threshold.

I ask about the lope because I find with my current kratom tolerance (15-20g a day of an above average strength strain, give or take), if I take anything around or above 12mg loperamide a few hours before kratom, I get a very strong opiate buzz from the kratom. Stronger than usual, without increase of the other effects. One time I took 24mg loperamide and I took half my usual kratom dose and had to lie down due to the power of the effects. (Don't try this at home).

I genuinely don't want to try this with tramadol, but I am curious.