Can't Fully Understand Some Research I Did On A Drug

[LandsUnknown]

I've honestly had some amazing insights from them that have truly been life changing, and for me it's not just "tripping off OTC flower seeds because I can't get anything better", far from it. I feel like they have their own spirit that is entirely unique from other psychedelics but just as powerful and meaningful, if not more in some ways. I have found that mushrooms and other psychedelics have shown me many incredible things, but morning glory seems to show me things that have had a certain direct relevance to my life. Other psychedelics have done this for me as well, but the things I have learned from these seeds have been especially relevant to my day to day life.

Then, somehow I stumbled across some info that was confusing to me about how the seeds are used in Chinese medicine daily, and that this practice has caused people to have cumulative kidney damage as doctors had seen supposedly. First, I did not know that morning glory seeds even affected the kidneys at all, let alone are nephrotoxic even to a slight degree. I also found it odd that they are taken daily in Chinese medicine, as I couldn't even imagine anyone tripping on a daily basis. It said a slightly different species is used, Ipomoea purpurea and Ipomoea nil rather than Ipomoea tricolor and Ipomoea violacea, the latter being the kinds used for psychedelic purposes. The alkaloids may be different and perhaps that accounts for the differences in the effects, as maybe these varieties are substantially different...... and maybe also the kidney issue wouldn't even apply to the ones that are used as psychedelics.

Studies have been done, involving rats..... with interesting results. One involved putting morning glory seeds in the food of the rats each day for 90 days. In one study they were given a diet with 1% seeds. This didn't really seem to cause ill effect physical health wise. Obviously, I'm sure having psychedelics slipped in their food for three months straight wasn't good for their mental health 8( Of course, that would be difficult to impossible to observe in a rodent. However, despite 1% of their diet being seeds which seems like an impossibly large amount, there was an even higher dose category. While it seems like it probably has no real relevance to human use of the seeds given the impossibly large amount that the rats were being given, the rats given a diet of 8% seeds had some really freaky and horrible things happen. Not that it would be a surprised that eating a diet of nearly 10% drugs of any kind would cause some seriously bad stuff to happen 8)

Then, another study was done saying that the seeds being given at 1.5 grams/kg to a rat per day did indeed cause kidney damage after 10 weeks daily. This second study made me wonder what, if any impact this would have on the health of someone using the seeds once a month or so. Would that be likely to cause any sort of kidney disease over time? Although, one and a half grams per kilogram would be far more than any human would consume, as it would be like 100+ grams of seeds. Also, this involved I. purpurea and I. nil rather than the specific species used for tripping. Possibly the species that are used as psychs don't have these negative effects?

Then, there was a third study that came to a conclusion that I found rather interesting and I didn't know what to make of it. It said that the kidney issues were likely caused by extracts using ethanol being used rather than water based extracts...... and water based extracts were likely to be fine in terms of the effect on the kidneys. Does this mean that morning glory seeds interact dangerously with alcohol? I usually don't drink while on them anyways though. I also always keep the dosages reasonable (e.g. usually somewhere in the range of 3 grams or so to maybe 5-6 from a weaker batch).

I just saw a site saying something about Chinese medicine and morning glory seeds, that they give them to people everyday, and it gave them (at least some of them) kidney problems? I know relatively little about pharmacology and all compared to most of the other people on this side of Bluelight, and I figured I'd post it on here. Would this stuff about the kidneys be something to be concerned about with my usage of them? Or is this just likely pertaining to the different species of seed I. purpurea and I. nil, rather than the Ipomoea species used as hallucinogens? I was confused, and I tried to do research on the subject but I couldn't fully ascertain what all this meant, as I don't really know that much about this sort of stuff. I usually have been one to just read stuff on erowid, rather than doing this sort of research.

 

[Solipsis]

Only things I can think of that the seeds contain is cyanoglycosides and something that is said to be a laxative resin that can be unhealthy. I don't know if these are one and the same. Also don't think diarrhea is a very common side effect of MGS is it?

Whatever is the culprit, doesn't seem impossible that an ethanolic extract perhaps changes bioavailability of toxic constituents and makes it a systemic toxicity rather than a GI toxicity? Another thing is that chronic use in general can have very different results than acute use, so it seems too little evidence to say anything about occasional use being dangerous.

Don't know about TCM but I saw that in homeopathy (which I have zero trust in by the way) that I. Purpurea seeds are used for kidney issues, and they have a tendency to use something as medication that can also be the culprit albeit in tiny dosages. So I wonder if that is also the application in TCM, and it could point at a correlation with kidney patients who are perhaps more sensitive to getting daily administrations of certain compounds, that are fine to take occasionally in healthy persons.

From what little I know of TCM it seems these practitioners may have a lot of unique knowledge about phytotherapy but that in TCM the stuff they give people can also give them other unrelated diseases on a regular basis because of some complex concoctions and the lack of oversight of the toxicity of all those chemicals that are in them. Or if this is not really the truth, then this might be the prejudiced view western medicine often has on it.

 

[LandsUnknown]

Makes sense. Doesn't even look like the ones used in TCM necessarily have the same alkaloids as the ones used for psychedelic purposes. Therefore, no reason to even think the culprit is there. Yes, that is true about TCM uses cocktails of numerous pharmacologically active herbs at once. The average is said to be seven different ones per patient! Plus, I've never heard of anybody dropping dead from tripping on MG seeds...... and I'm sure I won't be the first Also, the cyanoglycoside thing is a myth. Although, cyanoglycosides are present in apple seeds..... though accidentally eating a seed or a few seeds isn't a danger.

Interestingly though, I did read an interesting thread from a while back here on Bluelight about what is in them..... it was interesting, and it basically showed a study that did a breakdown of all the alkaloids. The only one that made me think anything related to these studies was small amounts of something called penniclavine that apparently is an ergot alkaloid that has the form of ethylene glycol, although it's natural alkaloid in ergot/MG seeds so obviously not the same chemical as manmade ethylene glycol which is in fact toxic to the kidneys. Not necessarily related, but possibly as you said when people already have health problems/kidney disease and/or are consuming them daily rather than occasionally, the trace amounts of this substance build up and cause problems perhaps I also thought this was odd as I thought ethylene glycol was exclusively manmade not naturally occurring Interestingly though, the post said something about how that compound can be turned into another chemical called chanoclavine or something, which also exists in the seeds along with it's chemical predecessor. It said this chemical is a psychoactive that is somewhat unique in it's own right and may work synergistically with the LSA/LSH to lead to a different kind of trip.

 

[Solipsis]

While on wiki it's claimed that only I. Violacea is proven to contain LSA, this article / correspondence claims otherwise with accreditation for analysis of I. Purpurea varieties.
http://www.lycaeum.org/diseyes/olo/glory.txt

What is a myth about cyanoglycosides? Maybe they are not nearly as toxic as to injure kidneys even on the long run but GI upset doesn't seem out of the question to me. Even if that doesn't fall under real dangers.

Penniclavine might have the ethylene glycol structure in it, but that says absolutely nothing. Sugars do as well. IMO it's not related, if all polyols would be a threat to kidneys it would be mayhem. Chemicals get their properties from their entire structure and only rarely from a functional group that does something regardless of what is hanging off it. And there is a huge freaking ergot alkaloid attached that incorporates that ethylenediol.

But yes some ergot alkaloids are known to cause health problems in several ways, notably that some of them (summarized as ergotoxins) like ergotamine and ergocryptine are not only responsible for cardiovascular effects but also effect on kidney function, effect on thyroid function and a few other things. This is compounds from ergot though, mind you...

I guess it just goes to show that it's not impossible for I. Purpurea or I. Nil to contain ergot alkaloids that could have similar effects that become clear especially after chronic administration.

 

[LandsUnknown]

What is a myth about cyanoglycosides? Maybe they are not nearly as toxic as to injure kidneys even on the long run but GI upset doesn't seem out of the question to me. Even if that doesn't fall under real dangers.

But yes some ergot alkaloids are known to cause health problems in several ways, notably that some of them (summarized as ergotoxins) like ergotamine and ergocryptine are not only responsible for cardiovascular effects but also effect on kidney function, effect on thyroid function and a few other things. This is compounds from ergot though, mind you...

I guess it just goes to show that it's not impossible for I. Purpurea or I. Nil to contain ergot alkaloids that could have similar effects that become clear especially after chronic administration.

Interesting. The seeds do contain ergot alkaloids, I have heard this. This is what causes the hallucinogenic effect, as they contain lysergic acid amide and lysergic acid hydroxyamide. They also contain other things, such as ergotamine (although there are only small amounts of ergotamine). I didn't know that ergot poisoning to have kidney involvement, but for ergotism to come as a result of morning glory seeds...... one would have to either ingest an effectively impossible dose or do them with truly extraordinary frequency (e.g. dosing every other day) as far as I know. Although when you explain it this way, it seems that the practice of taking them everyday would in fact be bad for the kidneys and other things as well possibly. Not that I'm surprised that dosing a hallucinogen everyday might not be the greatest idea
However, the mystery remains of why Chinese medicine herbalists advise their clients to do psychedelics on a daily basis While I agree that homeopathy is largely quackery, it seems like even a complete quack and moron would have the intuitive instinct that psychedelics simply aren't something to take everyday..... they are something to be done occasionally or at least relatively infrequently compared to most substances.... and for some people even just once may be enough for them, as they're simply so profound and utterly awe inspiring. I consider them sacred, not something that's supposed to be taken everyday as psychedelics aren't really even mere "drugs" in my experience, it's just something on a level beyond IMO. Daily use of any psychedelic just seems completely insane.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Tachyphylaxis would rapidly set in if the seeds were taken in large doses on a daily basis.