Weekly MDMA sessions not noticing any bad signs yet?

[Bearlove]

Couldn't agree more.

The whole point of BL is harm reduction and advice. Advice collected as a community of what is deemed, 'safe'. This comes from gathering the experiences of everyone, studies, general knowledge and meeting in the middle.
I'm sure those in the MDMA recovery thread, have the opposite experiences of bearlove and consumer.

A couple of peoples experiences doesn't trump the general consensus of a community. Which has always been, take breaks of a month+.

The thing with this though - this section is the work of many, a community and the rules of once per three months whilst are without doubt safer than dropping everyone weekend they are hardly hard facts. If you read a lot of the threads in this section and the MDMA recovery stories (I have) then there must be something majorly wrong with the MDMA that is used in the USA by teenagers than that used across the rest of the world as these problems are just not talked about and if it was such a problem with MDMA then there would be a major health scare in progress and not the few and far between deaths.

People using this section are so quick to jump to the conclusion that they have serotonin syndrome after they have taken 200mg twice in 6 months - harm reduction yes but allowing this is akin to scaremongering.

I am not saying that using MDMA weekly is safe, I am simply stating that I did (along with so many other people) without any ill effects.

 

[Jabberwocky]

And frankly if you have an issue with the way I go about trying to guide users in indisputably safer manner than some others in here would have guided them, cry me a river. I'm here to do just that, not babysit feelings.

Then at least be

HONEST!

Tell them that the reported negative effects could just as easily be caused by poly-drug ABUSE, or use of a substance that isn't MDMA, or due to an unreported mood disorder.

Let people know that what you say are "guidelines" are only based on

WILD ASS GUESSES

and have no foundation in any of the scientific literature.

Tell people that there is absolutely no scientific data that MDMA causes any damage to neurons, or the 5HT receptor complex in humans -- NONE, ZERO, ZIP, NADA.

Tell them that the studies with animals commonly use dosages equivalent to 800mg mure MDMA injected into the body cavity 4 times in a day (10 mg/kg ip. QID)

Tell them that the studies that show changes to the serotonin system in MDMA users all concede that:

1. There is not enough data to actually say the changes are outside the norm

2. There is no data to say the changes cause any negative issues (actually in almost every study the MDMA users with changes to SERT and 5HT binding affinity were

more well adjusted than the controls

3. The 'changes' could be the result of genetic/epigenetic predisposition

 

[Jabberwocky]

If you read a lot of the threads in this section and the MDMA recovery stories (I have) then there must be something majorly wrong with the MDMA that is used in the USA by teenagers.

It's called psycho-somatism

or transference

Same with benzodiazepines

Tens of millions of people take them -- some have withdrawal issues

apparently -- according to bitchfest websites -- benzo w/d can cause:

yeast infections (i'm not kidding)
burning ass syndrome
farting (months after abstinence)

but none of their symptoms could possibly be caused by the PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUES they started taking Benzos for like fucking ANXIETY -- hmmm.


Lets face it -- many people are drug seeking because they have psych issues (in denial or not) -- many times MDMA exposes them to the light

 

[Clocktower]

If you are of the opinion that frequent MDMA use is safe for everyone (or even most people), then the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence of it (scientific, not anecdotal).

It is not on the people advising caution because it MIGHT be dangerous for OP.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It is not on the people advising caution because it MIGHT be dangerous for OP.

There might be an invisible pink unicorn sitting next to you. -- Is it upon you to prove there isn't or upon me to prove there is???


The onus is on YOU to prove there is actual harm.

 

[Yeetbeat]

So is Bearloves opinion bullshit too or just mine?

Bearlove didn't state he believes the abstinence rule to be bullshit, you did. Bearlove provided his experience which is fine, but he didn't suggest weekly usage was or is safe.

Yeah i guess (hundreds of) thousands of people who have indulged more than once a month but dont post in the bluelight recovery thread dont count. Most people do not experience problems from using mdma more than once a month. Show me the studies to show that they do.

Sorry mate but when we're dealing with people's health and aiming to keep them safe, the onus of providing proof when giving out HR advice doesn't really fall on us, but on you to prove there is no risk.

But whatever. Stick to your once a month thing if it works for you. I was just saying my experience before Trozzle needed to personally attack me to make himself feel important. I will leave you too it.

You suggested the rule of abstinence is bullshit, which is all well and good if that's your opinion but as above we err on the side of caution as we aim for harm reduction, hence we advise at least a month's break. I'm not attacking you personally but the wording of your comment; probably would've helped if I weren't a smart ass to begin with but quite simply I want users to be safe in their use and as per MY personal anecdotal experiences, even a 2 week break was not enough. Bearlove may have his own experiences in line with yours, and quite frankly I envy the both of you if it's truly accurate, however as below he understands our mission:

The thing with this though - this section is the work of many, a community and the rules of once per three months whilst are without doubt safer than dropping everyone weekend they are hardly hard facts. If you read a lot of the threads in this section and the MDMA recovery stories (I have) then there must be something majorly wrong with the MDMA that is used in the USA by teenagers than that used across the rest of the world as these problems are just not talked about and if it was such a problem with MDMA then there would be a major health scare in progress and not the few and far between deaths.

People using this section are so quick to jump to the conclusion that they have serotonin syndrome after they have taken 200mg twice in 6 months - harm reduction yes but allowing this is akin to scaremongering.

I am not saying that using MDMA weekly is safe, I am simply stating that I did (along with so many other people) without any ill effects.

I agree, but as per my own personal experiences it's a little difficult to consider that the only possible factor at play. I'm overwhelmingly sure (short of a GC/MS) that the 2 batches of MDMA I've been going through over the past 2 years (both from same source) are not cut with anything active or inactive at all, though purity regarding dirty synth is definitely a possible factor.

There might be an invisible pink unicorn sitting next to you. -- Is it upon you to prove there isn't or upon me to prove there is???


The onus is on YOU to prove there is actual harm.

Sorry not when the health of other people is on the table. Provide anecdotal evidence all you like, that's fine. Just don't suggest the usage pattern is safe as that contradicts the entire purpose of the forum.

 

[Pallyress]

I feel for saying something here, even if I might be caught in the crossfire...

First of all, I appreciate the right for everybody to form their own opinion based on their own experience and available information. Two or ten different people can have different drug experiences/attitudes about the same drug. All experiences are valid, even if they are different and conflicting.

We are all different, and can react different, to the same drug. Also, with psychedelia/empatica, the setting plays a huge part in how it affects us.

That being said;
I would like to see discussions where participants share different views and experiences. I believe we can learn from eachother.

However, I would advice that the heated discussions are not in the treads where individuals seek personal advice. First time posters are likely to shy away with such experiences, only achieving confusion.

Nuanced views can of course be communicated, what should be frown upon is attacks on persons. This doesn't help the OP getting any closer to finding his or hers answer in how much risk they are willing to take.

It is all about risk, really. The safest choice is obviously to never do drugs. The more we choose to do drug, the more risk we choose to take. Different persons with their own uniqe circumstances have, and choose, different risk profiles. This forum is about allowing drug users to take better informed choices.

I do believe that some can take MDMA very often and not suffer harm. These people exist. What I don't know is why they can do it, while others can suffer permanent damages from using MDMA a couple of times. A lot is unclear. Dosing, purity, other substances combined, user background health, the environment around the person when rolling.

What we do know is that it isn't entirely risk free. This is important to communicate. It also follows that even if the potential risk is very low; frequent exposure will statistically increase the risk.

Knowing little about the individuals seeking out this forum and asking questions about a particular habit, I tend to side with the "better safe than sorry" policy. As fellow humans we should inform about potential risk.

The OP may continue his/hers drug habit, with no negative experiences. It is not a given that this will happen. Others have used in the same way and experienced serious long term effects. But not everbody. Not knowing the OP it is impossible for us to say that it is safe. Encouraging this habit could potentially lead to severe injuries, even death or suicide (worst case scenario). Warning about such frequent MDMA use could lead to less frequent drug use, or even not using drug (worst/best case scenario).

Yes, some can tolerate a high/frequent MDMA use. Others do not. The potential negative outcome can be so severe that the only responsible thing is to communicate the potential risk, without judgemental black/white stances.

 

[Bearlove]

I agree, but as per my own personal experiences it's a little difficult to consider that the only possible factor at play. I'm overwhelmingly sure (short of a GC/MS) that the 2 batches of MDMA I've been going through over the past 2 years (both from same source) are not cut with anything active or inactive at all, though purity regarding dirty synth is definitely a possible factor.

I know it's not the only factor and that was sort of my point :D - There really isn't that many wildly different batches of MDMA being made, the majority of the pills people are buying are from several sources (apart from the smaller local batches).

I have always struggled with these threads in this section - Loss of magic, Serotonin Syndrome, Long term comedowns etc. There just seems to be a huge divide on problems noticed, reported and suffered from users in the US than the rest of the world (Everywhere else). I would think that IF MDMA caused these kinds of problems then it would be reported, it would be a major issue - it's not though, people are not dropping off with serotonin syndrome.

If you look at some of the statistics of MDMA use the figures are astronomical, we are either very unlucky on the site that there are this many people using MDMA once and have these side effects OR there is something else in play (people expecting the come down, over thinking the comedown, being told from communities that they will have serotonin syndrome if they use twice a month etc).

The more you expose yourself to any drug the higher the risk you take of any problems be that short term or long term due to repeated exposure.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Sorry not when the health of other people is on the table. Provide anecdotal evidence all you like, that's fine. Just don't suggest the usage pattern is safe as that contradicts the entire purpose of the forum.

Harm Reduction.

In order to reduce Harm, one must quantify it. Where is the data that harm actually exists?


Dihydrogen Monoxide is necessary for life, yet if too much is consumed will kill you.

 

[Pallyress]

Harm Reduction.

In order to reduce Harm, one must quantify it. Where is the data that harm actually exists?

The same way one identifies butthurt; by recognising symptoms.

If you disagree with my post in this thread, feel free to argue against me. Jumping in with hostile replies in other active threads where I participate is not really the way to counter arguments I made here.

 

[Yeetbeat]

I know it's not the only factor and that was sort of my point :D - There really isn't that many wildly different batches of MDMA being made, the majority of the pills people are buying are from several sources (apart from the smaller local batches).

I have always struggled with these threads in this section - Loss of magic, Serotonin Syndrome, Long term comedowns etc. There just seems to be a huge divide on problems noticed, reported and suffered from users in the US than the rest of the world (Everywhere else). I would think that IF MDMA caused these kinds of problems then it would be reported, it would be a major issue - it's not though, people are not dropping off with serotonin syndrome.

If you look at some of the statistics of MDMA use the figures are astronomical, we are either very unlucky on the site that there are this many people using MDMA once and have these side effects OR there is something else in play (people expecting the come down, over thinking the comedown, being told from communities that they will have serotonin syndrome if they use twice a month etc).

The more you expose yourself to any drug the higher the risk you take of any problems be that short term or long term due to repeated exposure.

Wooooaaahhhh who on earth suggests SS from dosing twice in a month? Serotonin Syndrome will potentially come about from taking a very high dose in a very short timeframe, or through a combination of substances (often a 5HT releaser and an MAOI), but not from taking recreational doses - even on the high end of the scale - a little too frequently. I'd be just as quick to question anyone suggesting serotonin syndrome from rolling even weekly unless they were consuming a LOT in each session.

Further, I'm not suggesting the ill-effects I'm getting at are a result of acute neurotoxicity from the MDMA either, but rather extended periods of potentially much lower serotonin levels than our bodies optimally function on.

Ultimate none of us can say anything for certain, even with regards to our own experiences and where they may land us. We're all rolling the dice, just some people have significantly better odds?

Harm Reduction.

In order to reduce Harm, one must quantify it. Where is the data that harm actually exists?


Dihydrogen Monoxide is necessary for life, yet if too much is consumed will kill you.

We take our measures not to avoid certain harm but potential harm, which as some such as consumer and Bearlove have demonstrated isn't necessarily guaranteed (at least not in the short term). We don't base our advice on the possibility the user may not suffer ill-effects; we base it on the possibility that they may. This possibility increases with some habits: like not testing their drugs to ensure they're what they believe them to be, not weighing their doses, excessive redosing, dosing too high, and frequent dosing among others.

 

[Jabberwocky]

We take our measures not to avoid certain harm but potential harm, which as some such as consumer and Bearlove have demonstrated isn't necessarily guaranteed (at least not in the short term). We don't base our advice on the possibility the user may not suffer ill-effects; we base it on the possibility that they may. This possibility increases with some habits: like not testing their drugs to ensure they're what they believe them to be, not weighing their doses, excessive redosing, dosing too high, and frequent dosing among others.

From the standpoint of credibility, full disclosure should be practiced -- else people won't embrace BB message.

Frequency questions should be answered with something like

"Although there is no scientific data to support how frequently one should use MDMA, anecdotal reports suggest no more frequently than x times per y for the average person. Some persons can use MDMA frequently for extended periods of time, without ill effects; however this seems to be the exception not the rule."

Or else you run the very likely risk of people discounting ALL your harm reduction advice because they personally know someone that has be rolling frequently for years.

 

[Yeetbeat]

One should be responsible when handling firearms by never pointing them at themselves or someone else regardless of whether they're loaded, and always treating them as though they were.

Something I learned from a very young age, and my opinion is that this sentiment can be applied to these circumstances: Many people have survived gunshots. Being accidentally shot may not injure you very badly at all, say if it were in the foot. However that does not mean we should be any less careful when handling firearms, and it's the potential for something to go awry that we take precautions in the first place.

I'm not denying people get away with discouraged usage without obvious lasting effects. Bearlove and consumer are examples. However if someone is prepared to discount advice recommending they take it easy in case they get burned entirely because the source of that advice neglected to also state many have avoided coming to harm, I'd argue that individual was only looking for the answer they wanted to hear and would likely have gone with their desires regardless.

 

[Jabberwocky]

One should be responsible when handling firearms by never pointing them at themselves or someone else regardless of whether they're loaded, and always treating them as though they were.

Something I learned from a very young age, and my opinion is that this sentiment can be applied to these circumstances: Many people have survived gunshots. Being accidentally shot may not injure you very badly at all, say if it were in the foot. However that does not mean we should be any less careful when handling firearms, and it's the potential for something to go awry that we take precautions in the first place.

I'm not denying people get away with discouraged usage without obvious lasting effects. Bearlove and consumer are examples. However if someone is prepared to discount advice recommending they take it easy in case they get burned entirely because the source of that advice neglected to also state many have avoided coming to harm, I'd argue that individual was only looking for the answer they wanted to hear and would likely have gone with their desires regardless.

But it goes to responsible use and the principle that if you are giving information you should give it all.

If Bluelight has integrity --it should give ALL information, and allow people to decide the level of harm and which reduction methods they wish to choose. Otherwise, Bluelight is guilty of the censorship and prohibition that governments around the world engage in WRT drugs.

Even your use of the term "discouraged usage" is authoritarian in nature as opposed to free-thought. Bluelight should take the position of information broker in support of harm reduction -- discouraged usage? really?

Many people choose to carry a firearm with a round in the chamber. Many people I know prefer to carry with the chamber empty-- they have done a risk assessment and chosen the extra time to rack the slide to chamber a round is worth the extra time they get if their weapon is taken by an adversary.

 

[Clocktower]

"Although there is no scientific data to support how frequently one should use MDMA, anecdotal reports suggest no more frequently than x times per y for the average person. Some persons can use MDMA frequently for extended periods of time, without ill effects; however this seems to be the exception not the rule."

For the record, the claim that there is no scientific data suggesting wait times between MDMA doses should be on the order of months is not really true. Consider this very interesting 2011 study in which users of MDMA and certain psychedelic drugs were given PET scans to measure SERT in brain after various periods of abstinence. The most interesting result to me:

For participants with a median lifetime use [of MDMA], we see an expected return to the normal SERT level occurring after an average of 212 days (right vertical dashed line). Based on the lower 95% confidence limit (top edge of the shaded area), SERT BPND will reach the average level among controls after 91 days (left vertical dashed line), whereas the upper limit estimate is beyond the human lifespan.

Of course, no study is perfect, this one had a small sample, and nobody's treating it as gospel. Still, there are many studies that find MDMA use seems to carry a nontrivial risk of harm, and no self-respecting health scientist would claim that using MDMA on a weekly basis is risk-free. Talk about using it just a few times a year though, and then you've got a debate.

 

[Yeetbeat]

I guess maybe my relating it to a firearm wasn't the best, given I'm Australian and the need to carry a deadly weapon for self-protection is relatively non-existent. That being said, if I were knowingly in the presence of someone completely disregarding the precautions I've been brought up with around firearms I'd leave the vicinity (pretty much always treating it as though it can potentially fire at any given time, regardless of whether the holder 'knows' it to be 'safe').

In any case, I've said my part and expressed my opinion on frequent dosing of MDMA and the reason I support and advise a minimum break. Sounds like you're getting pretty worked up about censorship, which hasn't happened here. I don't believe in censoring people's opinion on the same topic however I do however believe that we should stop short of any advise that may encourage a user to follow in those steps which includes suggesting it's safe because people have got away with it - not to suggest this thread went that way. If you want to split hairs just to dig, yeah - I'd 'censor' (or at the least strongly call out) a post that encouraged unnecessary risks such as heroic doses or multi-day binging, though as I'm not a moderator of MED it's not my place, and again that hasn't occurred here anyway.

 

[Jabberwocky]

For the record, the claim that there is no scientific data suggesting wait times between MDMA doses should be on the order of months is not really true. Consider this very interesting 2011 study in which users of MDMA and certain psychedelic drugs were given PET scans to measure SERT in brain after various periods of abstinence. The most interesting result to me:



Of course, no study is perfect, this one had a small sample, and nobody's treating it as gospel. Still, there are many studies that find MDMA use seems to carry a nontrivial risk of harm, and no self-respecting health scientist would claim that using MDMA on a weekly basis is risk-free. Talk about using it just a few times a year though, and then you've got a debate.

Of course my claim is true



SSRIs reduce SERT binding also

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/19/23/10494.full.pdf

 

[Pallyress]

I think it would ve cool to have an educational thread where different aftereffects are discussed. Obviously not all symptoms experienced after a MDMA trip is due to serotonin syndrome, and a broader educational thread, based on research, could help users differentiate between causes and symptoms.

I for one didn't realise that drugs in the restitution phase could diminish or increase the long term effects of MDMA use, in regards of the dopamine theory.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Obviously not all symptoms experienced after a MDMA trip is due to serotonin syndrome,

None are -- unless you are in a hospital hooked up to machines.

 

[terarc]

If you can use MDMA as much as you want without any ill effects then good for you, but surely it's not that hard to see how it would be bad to tell someone that they can use it as much as they want?

There's an obvious risk of complications from MDMA use, there's some science behind it, yes it's lacklustre as of yet but that doesn't mean there isn't a huge number of people reporting these problems anecdotally.

Therefore, from a harm reduction standpoint, the best thing we can do until we have more solid science is advise people to use MDMA as infrequently as possible if they wish to minimise risk of experiencing long term negative after effects.