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50 dead in LGBT dance club shooting in Orlando FL by Islamic terrorist.

Alpha all you are doing is inciting anger and not making any real points. I am in orlando. This has been a rough couple days.

Regardless of if islam is the religion of peace, or just a political regime masquerading as a religion it will not solve any of our problems of mass shootings, gun violence, and runaway military budget we have here in the states that does not seem to be a problem in most other western parts of the world. If you turn a blind eye to these problems then what happened today will keep happening no matter if it is a muslim, a right wing paramilitant, or a terrorist tree hugger.

If you do not think our country has a problem with guns then look only to our neighbor to the north. They have similar gun laws and do not experience the same level of violence due to existential turmoil.
 
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The problem is not nor has it ever been about gun control. The problem is our society and foreign/domestic policies.

Our foreign policies of dropping millions of dollars of bombs on other countries and killing countless thousands of civilians has created anti-American extremism all over the world.

At home, the socioeconomic conditions that we've created by allowing the rich and powerful to shape this country have gotten so bad that domestic terrorism is now a real threat. No, not everyone that picks up an assault rifle and starts shooting people does so because of Islam. People in America are working 2 or 3 jobs just to feed their families. Most of them can't afford proper medical care or education for their children. They're drowning in debt while multi-billion dollar banks charge them 15%-25% and $35 overdraft fees. They spend their entire lives struggling and worrying while a tiny percentage of Americans soak up 90% of all new wealth coming into the country. They feel, and rightfully so, that the entire system is rigged against them and that their own government is constantly plotting ways to exploit them to the benefit of rich corporations. They see that 1-in-every-5 children in the richest country in the planet's history live under the poverty level and are terrified of what kind of life their own children will have. They feel helpless and hopeless. Is it any wonder then why things like these mass shootings happen? There are lots of other countries with similar gun laws to ours and NONE of them have a problem with mass shootings like we do.

When you make people feel like they're trapped in a corner and drive them to insanity, they'll do insane things. It doesn't matter what our gun laws are. These shootings will continue until people start realizing what the true nature of the problem is.
 
stupid gun culture.
Your laws need reform.
I say this because a) i care about my family and friends in the US and b) it's the last thing the islamophobe mob want to hear.

Civilised societies don't have that level of gun crime.

I agree we need to change things here. I had a change of heart when the girl was shot the night before. It shouldn't be easy to get a weapon. Weapons shouldn't be marketed and for such profit, to people. It makes no sense that guns are sold, which have sole purpose of killing others, yet marijuana, cocaine, etc., all drugs people take on their own, are illegal. Make drugs legal, and get rid of the power of criminals, or greatly reduce it. Tighten gun control... I'm not sure exactly how.

I tend to go back and forth on this issue.

Sooner or later people are going to learn how to print their own weapons, reliably.
 
LOL, as though Australia and other countries in the Commonwealth of the UK are not violent and are not countries of 'war, death, murder, etc.' 8)
I didn't say any of us are blameless.

But i especially dislike the intelllectual laziness of islamophobia at the present time.
All that "SJW" shit that has all the internet convervatives worked up currently. I've also been called a communist and a fascist tonight, so like whatever man :)

Most people on here are very nice, so if we just try and go with that, it'll flow better, dig?

All im saying is that letting "ISIS" dominate the discussion is a convenient distraction from talking about other issues these fucked up events raise socially.
Saying "oh, that's just ISIS, no need to discuss local issues besides the Islamist Peril" is missing a really major parts of the issue besides apparent islamic fundamentalist inspiration or whatever. And this is especially topical leading up to an already heated Presidential election.
I'm sure all kinds of data will be dug up on the perpetrator of this one, conclusions made, blah blah. I'm not really interested, i just think it is fucking sad, but I think always having an enemy is a constant theme of the US government for at least the last century (more or less) is something to consider. Who is it now? It's ISIS.
Sort of stifles further discussion, because we all agree they're vicious, dirty fuckers.
All i'm saying is, don't take your eyes off the bigger picture.
 
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I've mentioned this before in a previous thread and will say it again here for everyone's benefit. First, let me identify myself as a leftist, further left than Bernie Sanders. I consider myself a socialist, but also a "small-r republican" and a federalist. So technically speaking, I am a "left federal republican". That means that in the social and legal tradition of my country of citizenship, I believe that all people have a right to practice their religion and that government cannot interfere with that (so long as their "practice" does not infringe on the rights of others). But I'm also an atheist and heavily critical of ALL religions (not just Islam), and I also call shit the way I see it. Below, I'm going to be very critical of Islam, but there is much to be said about Christianity and Judaism and all other defunct, obsolete mythical paradigms as well. But that's for another discussion. For now, let's talk Islam:

I don't usually disagree with SpaceJunk, but...

Islam is a very ugly and dangerous religion. The whole "religion of peace" thing is utter crap. If you open the Quran and read it in it's original Arabic, the word "kill" will appear on nearly every page. I'm not making this up, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

When the Quran is translated into English, terms like "kill the infidel" are translated into "[God will] punish the sinful". This is all part of an Islamic doctrine which says that it is admissible to lie about your religion if it grants you safety (or stealth) in a country hostile to your religion. Therefore, all English language Qurans found in your home town will not mention the "kill" part, but all the ones written in Arabic do, and the Arabic readers of Arabic Qurans will read it too. And they'll take it as God's word, and may carry it out so they can have their 72 virgins when the get to "paradise". Which also brings me to another important point - look at the religion's founder, Muhammad. He was basically just a warlord who invented his own religion mostly to satisfy his sexual desires by force (he was "god's messenger, after all). His second wife, Aisha, was NINE YEARS OLD when they married and consummated their marriage (i.e. he fucked a prepubescent child). This is the man muslims look towards as a shining example of the ideal muslim human being. It's also the reason why men in their 50's are often married to teenage daughters of someone in their village or city all over the middle east.

There are exactly three kinds of muslims: 1 - the open jihadist // 2 - the closet jihadist (blends into society until his opportunity arises to do what he wants to do) // 3 - the useful idiot who actually buys the "religion of peace" nonsense because they don't actually read from the Quran in its original Arabic, or pick and choose the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff (the same way Christians do out of the Bible - it says "don't eat shrimp" and "don't blend textiles" on the same page it says "don't be gay", but I know most christians eat shrimp and wear polyester/cotton blend fabrics before, while and after they try to "save" their gay friend/family member by attempting to brainwash them into not being gay, which is not possible, because homosexuality is a natural and innate, inborn tendency among a certain % of any population, and it always has been for all of history. The third type is the type you find most commonly in western countries, but even they are not immune to being "flipped".

My family had to flee from Iran in the wake of the '79 Islamic Revolution. Tehran (Iran's capital) was once referred to as the "Paris of the Middle East". After the revolution, females who were once teachers, mayors, librarians, and government bureaucrats, who only months before could wear whatever they wanted (skirts, bikinis at the beach, etc) found themselves suddenly being forced by the religious enforcement police (known as Comitè) to wear hijabs and who would beat them in public if a strand of hair was showing through said hijabs. Now, I should state here that I do not condone monarchism, and the Shah (king) of Iran who ruled previous to the Islamic Republic government was an autocrat, but was certainly the MUCH lesser of two evils.

Just look at the middle east. Violence literally everywhere. Lack of civil infrastructure. Low industrial output (for instance, name a single vehicle manufactured in a mid-east country - there aren't any - the royal Saudi family can afford to buy the nicest luxury cars available, but not a single screw or bolt in the car is manufactured anywhere in a thousand mile radius). Now, granted, the United States played a large role in the stoking of this infernal violence. If you fuck with a bee's nest, the bees will get angry and start swarming, and you very well may get stung. We fucked with the bee's nest. It was politically advantageous for us to do so (in the eyes of the officials who carried it out), just like in Afghanistan when we funded the mujahideen to fight against the Soviets (who were not actually invading the country, but had come to assist the rightwise communist government that was trying to westernize and modernize the country at said rightwise government's request), but that came back to bite us in the ass in the form of Al-Qaeda and 9/11. We also continue to do it now to purposefully destabilize the region ("muddy the waters and the fish can't see") as a pretext to engage militarily and gain control of the vast oil wealth there, establish military bases (we have over a thousand all over the world, many in countries we were previously at war with, such as Japan and South Korea, and now in places like Iraq). Had we left them alone (Iraq and Afghanistan and perhaps all the way back to Mossadeq's government in Iran in the 50's), none of this would be happening (they would still stone women to death and hang people accused of homosexuality in public, but there would be no ISIS at the very least). So, we are in part to blame, and to be fair I must mention that.

But Islam is very certainly at its true core a violent religion. Its built in. It began with violence (Muhammad) and has been violent its entire history (refer to muslim occupation of the Iberian Peninsula for centuries).

Just look at the reaction to Charlie Hebdo depicting Muhammad in a satirical manner in one of their issues. That was enough to encourage a couple "Type I" and "Type II" muslims to murder/attempt to murder Hebdo's staff.

I am still, and always will be, an "SJW" as the fascist white nationalists like to refer to people who believe everyone deserves to be equal in the eyes of justice/the law. I will always believe in human rights, free speech, and the right to do as you please so long as you not infringe on the liberties of others.

But with my background having been born to refugee parents from a muslim theocratic country and my knowledge as an atheist about the ugly truth of ALL organized religions, I have to be honest about the truth of Islam. It is violent in its doctrines and encourages violence among its followers.

Check out MEMRI, which is an organization that operates a website that archives media from muslim countries in which their true doctrines are clearly spelled out. I know MEMRI is an Israeli propaganda operation, and I certainly am NO FRIEND to Israel. For the record, I sympathize with the Palestinians and deeply believe in a two-state solution and a cessation of hostilities between the two parties. But the videos you'll find on MEMRI are real, and the translations are accurate. Check it out, you'll have a field day.

I have no doubt that the act in the Florida nightclub was performed by a homophobe muslim in service to his god and religion.

I am not an Islamophobe, I am a realist. My commitment to atheism prevents me from viewing religion with rose-tinted glasses. It is what it is.
 
Christian zealotry =/= Islamic extremist terrorism

Have we helped piss them off with interventionalist policy? Probably. These people are intolerant and want you dead. The moderate Muslim outside of the U.S. Is not a reality if you look at any of the national polls in a country like turkey. Apostates must die and that is all there is to it.
 
Considering we've directly caused the deaths of literally millions of civilians in the middle east over the past 30 years it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that there are people that want to harm us. I'd imagine if it was your wife and daughter that got blown to pieces by a U.S. bomb or your brother or sister murdered with a rifle supplied to rebels by the United States it'd drive you insane enough for revenge that you'd be willing to kill Americans any way you could. I know it would me.
 
I don't have anything particularly useful to say because I don't know enough about politics etc to be right when I make a claim, so I don't know anything about what this means in the wider scale of things.

But this has had an immediate impact on the LGBT community across the world (at least where I am, which is a city in England). I know people who have lost people. There is a sense of not knowing what to say to each-other, organising vigils and extra support provisions in my local LGBT organisations, and the sadness at realising some people will probably be outed to their families in death. I know my feelings are probably quite irrational and I don't usually react to current events this strongly, but I feel like some people I've seen are being opportunistic in making points. It doesn't hurt to approach conversations after an event like this with sensitivity.
 
I've mentioned this before in a previous thread and will say it again here for everyone's benefit. First, let me identify myself as a leftist, further left than Bernie Sanders. I consider myself a socialist, but also a "small-r republican" and a federalist. So technically speaking, I am a "left federal republican". That means that in the social and legal tradition of my country of citizenship, I believe that all people have a right to practice their religion and that government cannot interfere with that (so long as their "practice" does not infringe on the rights of others). But I'm also an atheist and heavily critical of ALL religions (not just Islam), and I also call shit the way I see it. Below, I'm going to be very critical of Islam, but there is much to be said about Christianity and Judaism and all other defunct, obsolete mythical paradigms as well. But that's for another discussion. For now, let's talk Islam:

I don't usually disagree with SpaceJunk, but...

Islam is a very ugly and dangerous religion. The whole "religion of peace" thing is utter crap. If you open the Quran and read it in it's original Arabic, the word "kill" will appear on nearly every page. I'm not making this up, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

When the Quran is translated into English, terms like "kill the infidel" are translated into "[God will] punish the sinful". This is all part of an Islamic doctrine which says that it is admissible to lie about your religion if it grants you safety (or stealth) in a country hostile to your religion. Therefore, all English language Qurans found in your home town will not mention the "kill" part, but all the ones written in Arabic do, and the Arabic readers of Arabic Qurans will read it too. And they'll take it as God's word, and may carry it out so they can have their 72 virgins when the get to "paradise". Which also brings me to another important point - look at the religion's founder, Muhammad. He was basically just a warlord who invented his own religion mostly to satisfy his sexual desires by force (he was "god's messenger, after all). His second wife, Aisha, was NINE YEARS OLD when they married and consummated their marriage (i.e. he fucked a prepubescent child). This is the man muslims look towards as a shining example of the ideal muslim human being. It's also the reason why men in their 50's are often married to teenage daughters of someone in their village or city all over the middle east.

There are exactly three kinds of muslims: 1 - the open jihadist // 2 - the closet jihadist (blends into society until his opportunity arises to do what he wants to do) // 3 - the useful idiot who actually buys the "religion of peace" nonsense because they don't actually read from the Quran in its original Arabic, or pick and choose the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff (the same way Christians do out of the Bible - it says "don't eat shrimp" and "don't blend textiles" on the same page it says "don't be gay", but I know most christians eat shrimp and wear polyester/cotton blend fabrics before, while and after they try to "save" their gay friend/family member by attempting to brainwash them into not being gay, which is not possible, because homosexuality is a natural and innate, inborn tendency among a certain % of any population, and it always has been for all of history. The third type is the type you find most commonly in western countries, but even they are not immune to being "flipped".

My family had to flee from Iran in the wake of the '79 Islamic Revolution. Tehran (Iran's capital) was once referred to as the "Paris of the Middle East". After the revolution, females who were once teachers, mayors, librarians, and government bureaucrats, who only months before could wear whatever they wanted (skirts, bikinis at the beach, etc) found themselves suddenly being forced by the religious enforcement police (known as Comitè) to wear hijabs and who would beat them in public if a strand of hair was showing through said hijabs. Now, I should state here that I do not condone monarchism, and the Shah (king) of Iran who ruled previous to the Islamic Republic government was an autocrat, but was certainly the MUCH lesser of two evils.

Just look at the middle east. Violence literally everywhere. Lack of civil infrastructure. Low industrial output (for instance, name a single vehicle manufactured in a mid-east country - there aren't any - the royal Saudi family can afford to buy the nicest luxury cars available, but not a single screw or bolt in the car is manufactured anywhere in a thousand mile radius). Now, granted, the United States played a large role in the stoking of this infernal violence. If you fuck with a bee's nest, the bees will get angry and start swarming, and you very well may get stung. We fucked with the bee's nest. It was politically advantageous for us to do so (in the eyes of the officials who carried it out), just like in Afghanistan when we funded the mujahideen to fight against the Soviets (who were not actually invading the country, but had come to assist the rightwise communist government that was trying to westernize and modernize the country at said rightwise government's request), but that came back to bite us in the ass in the form of Al-Qaeda and 9/11. We also continue to do it now to purposefully destabilize the region ("muddy the waters and the fish can't see") as a pretext to engage militarily and gain control of the vast oil wealth there, establish military bases (we have over a thousand all over the world, many in countries we were previously at war with, such as Japan and South Korea, and now in places like Iraq). Had we left them alone (Iraq and Afghanistan and perhaps all the way back to Mossadeq's government in Iran in the 50's), none of this would be happening (they would still stone women to death and hang people accused of homosexuality in public, but there would be no ISIS at the very least). So, we are in part to blame, and to be fair I must mention that.

But Islam is very certainly at its true core a violent religion. Its built in. It began with violence (Muhammad) and has been violent its entire history (refer to muslim occupation of the Iberian Peninsula for centuries).

Just look at the reaction to Charlie Hebdo depicting Muhammad in a satirical manner in one of their issues. That was enough to encourage a couple "Type I" and "Type II" muslims to murder/attempt to murder Hebdo's staff.

I am still, and always will be, an "SJW" as the fascist white nationalists like to refer to people who believe everyone deserves to be equal in the eyes of justice/the law. I will always believe in human rights, free speech, and the right to do as you please so long as you not infringe on the liberties of others.

But with my background having been born to refugee parents from a muslim theocratic country and my knowledge as an atheist about the ugly truth of ALL organized religions, I have to be honest about the truth of Islam. It is violent in its doctrines and encourages violence among its followers.

Check out MEMRI, which is an organization that operates a website that archives media from muslim countries in which their true doctrines are clearly spelled out. I know MEMRI is an Israeli propaganda operation, and I certainly am NO FRIEND to Israel. For the record, I sympathize with the Palestinians and deeply believe in a two-state solution and a cessation of hostilities between the two parties. But the videos you'll find on MEMRI are real, and the translations are accurate. Check it out, you'll have a field day.

I have no doubt that the act in the Florida nightclub was performed by a homophobe muslim in service to his god and religion.

I am not an Islamophobe, I am a realist. My commitment to atheism prevents me from viewing religion with rose-tinted glasses. It is what it is.


Thank you for posting this.

Police arrested a Muslim carrying weapons including rifles and explosives to the LA Pride fest.
IN ELEVEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, STATE EXECUTION OF HOMOSEXUAL/BISEXUAL MEN IS STILL GOVERNMENT POLICY.
A SINGLE MUSLIM JUST MURDERED MORE GAY AND BISEXUAL MEN THAN DOMESTIC GAY AND BI-BASHING HAS HARMED IN THE LAST 50 YEARS.

THIS IS A MUSLIM PROBLEM, NOT A GUN PROBLEM.
 
considering we've directly caused the deaths of literally millions of civilians in the middle east over the past 30 years it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that there are people that want to harm us. I'd imagine if it was your wife and daughter that got blown to pieces by a u.s. Bomb or your brother or sister murdered with a rifle supplied to rebels by the united states it'd drive you insane enough for revenge that you'd be willing to kill americans any way you could. I know it would me.

qft
 
I don't have anything particularly useful to say because I don't know enough about politics etc to be right when I make a claim, so I don't know anything about what this means in the wider scale of things.

But this has had an immediate impact on the LGBT community across the world (at least where I am, which is a city in England). I know people who have lost people. There is a sense of not knowing what to say to each-other, organising vigils and extra support provisions in my local LGBT organisations, and the sadness at realising some people will probably be outed to their families in death. I know my feelings are probably quite irrational and I don't usually react to current events this strongly, but I feel like some people I've seen are being opportunistic in making points. It doesn't hurt to approach conversations after an event like this with sensitivity.

good post man and my heart goes out to you. I don't know a lot or have much to do with the community, but i know that this has sent some shockwaves around the world. I live within an hour of orlando, and its easy to forget how this impacts the rest of the world. I was having some conversations with some people today without watching the news (not really interested in the spin atm) and it was brought up how tight a community the LGBT world is. Im sure people are prob closer to the community than they are their own families for one reason or another. I hope your friends are able to find some peace. We are all so desensitized now. Its easy to foret that some people on BL may have been personally affected with a loss like this. Its annoying seeing this politicized into some right vs left thing in such a short matter of time. This is a disgrace. que the gun control debate.

don't really know what to say, I can only shake my head, but this is unreal. over a hundred people? that is INSANE.
 
Since the shootings here last year, practically every night club and place where large numbers of people gather has security guards who check EVERYBODY who enters. You must open any bags and hold open your coat before you can enter. Of course, those types of weapons used in the killings are not easily available to the public here, but those who are determined to kill will always find ways to get them. The FBI has not stated that the shooter was affiliated to ISIS, but it is apparently easy enough to join. And, this is an ISIS style of attack and target. Having the support of a widespread network like ISIS makes acquiring military grade weapons child's play - it takes little more than the click of a mouse to get them.

In Florida, there is no regulation of private firearm sales. All he had to do was look in the classifieds, meet the seller and pay. No records are even kept.
 
Considering we've directly caused the deaths of literally millions of civilians in the middle east over the past 30 years it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that there are people that want to harm us. I'd imagine if it was your wife and daughter that got blown to pieces by a U.S. bomb or your brother or sister murdered with a rifle supplied to rebels by the United States it'd drive you insane enough for revenge that you'd be willing to kill Americans any way you could. I know it would me.

The shooter was a born and bred US citizen. (Born in Port St. Lucie Florida in 1986)
 
The shooter was a born and bred US citizen. (Born in Port St. Lucie Florida in 1986)

And he's of middle eastern descent. Do you know how many people have radicalized over the years for transgressions against their "people?" Do you know how much funding the IRA got in the early 20th century from influential and wealthy Irish Americans that had never been to Ireland?
 
Considering we've directly caused the deaths of literally millions of civilians in the middle east over the past 30 years it shouldn't be a shock to anyone that there are people that want to harm us. I'd imagine if it was your wife and daughter that got blown to pieces by a U.S. bomb or your brother or sister murdered with a rifle supplied to rebels by the United States it'd drive you insane enough for revenge that you'd be willing to kill Americans any way you could. I know it would me.

Really? If a country's government killed your family, you would then be willing to indiscriminately murder an unlimited number of that country's citizens?
 
Or are we still doing the "detached message forum intellectual high horse" thing?

Because I'll tell you right now, I'd be ready to let loose the dogs of war if someone seriously harmed, let alone murdered, anyone I hold dear. I'd be ready to raze the entire Earth if my family was taken from me. And I think anyone who says otherwise doesn't fully grasp the implications of such an event.
 
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