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2016 American Presidential Campaign

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I don't know, socko.
I think voter ignorance is one part of a larger problem.
Information - and editorials and political analysis has never been more easier to access in massive quantities.
Yeah, the amount of information available is too much for anyone to read - let alone process and understand - but i don't think access to knowledge is as much of a problem as media misinformation, distraction, personality-politics and insanely expensive campaigns are. Bread and circuses kind of stuff.
But even if we were to have some kind of media reform - where independent, dissenting voices were able to be heard by large amounfs of people - amongst the noise of the shallow sound-byte corporate media - it wouldn't solve the flaws in what "democracy" has become.
Taking various wealthy special-interest lobby groups out of the equation, would be a start - but again - there are still a lot of things in our current political system(s) - ie not just the US - that are deeply flawed.
This is because there is no perfect model.
And of course, you can't please everyone all the time. My belief regarding the (itself simplifically flawed) left-right political divide is that we humans just all think differently.
I believe studies into the way human brains work have shown differences in terms of neurological make up of "left-leaning" and "right leaning" individuals - as well as social and environmental conditions that shape our belief systems.

It would be great to take ego and self interest out of politics - but how realistic is such a proposition?
No system is perfect, but i'd just like to see more pragmatic solutions to society's problems being offered by our leaders.
Slogans are great for television news segments - but rarely mean very much.
Blaming an ideological rival - or an easy scapegoat is again, just cheap and shallow.

For too long, people have voted with apathy.
Seems like Americans are quite interested in this particular campaign - from what i gather, because so many people are having a tough time economically and socially.
Yet, at this point - the (arguably) two most vacuous candidates from the major parties are looking like contesting the presidency against one another.
Shit's fucked up.
 
Droppersneck said:
an inexperienced president who did nothing but create policies that hindered the economy and created great racial/ class division in 8 short years.
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No matter who says it, it is the truth.I will go so far as to say that the racial division was deliberate.

And I will argue that Trump is A LOT more liberal than he lets on.The problem is his ego can't let go of the love the right wing voters have shown him so he continues his sometimes racist rants to keep the love coming.His ego disables him.
 
SKL said:
I think a lot of low information voters are very unhappy with the state of things, but most of their support for the Democrat party are naïve indoctrinated college-educated Whites, who are, despite fancy degrees, etc. in fact often relatively low-information outside of their own echo chambers, and in minorities who supported Obama simply out of cultural affinity, and for a variety of reasons which I find harder to understand are quite fond of Hillary.

The only thing that will save us is working-class Whites, and hopefully enough of the more culturally and religiously conservative Blacks and Hispanics will wake up to the liberal agenda to radically redefine fundamental social institutions like marriage and even prioritize ideology over ontology and biology when it comes to "sexual identity." The more liberal impulses of these groups are stoked my the media and manipulated by radicals of all stripes—but a lot of the people at the top are actually White and Jewish and motivated only by a political agenda rather than any real love for other groups. See, the furore over police misconduct of varying degrees of severity from genuine to imaginary, but the incidences of which are neither less nor more than before, but now receive a lot of attention, leading to #BlackLivesMatter, etc. which is a giant distraction for minorities from the real issues; just like the sexual identity politics is the same sort of distraction for White hipsters and SJWs. It's all connected and driven by the media.

But I think the people, ordinary Americans, will rise up against it all of this nonsense in the end. We face significant demographic threats, but when I see the outpouring of support for someone like Trump, hypocrite and buffoon that he may be, it is in rebellion against all of the above, which is why the media–cultural Marxist axis can barely understand, and at first mocked and now mongers fear against the man. But that he's created a genuine movement gives me hope. He may not win in the general but a segment of the populace is becoming more and more politically aware and involved, as evidenced also by some nascent right-wing movements largely based on the Internet, and there is a genuine backlash against rampant identity politics, victim-mongering, "SJWery," "political correctness," and so forth. These movements on the left have already achieved the redefinition of marriage, now they want to redefine sexuality in general, and so on, and so forth; they have gone too far. Immigration and demographic changes are going too far. America is losing it's identity. And we won't give up without a fight; what we're seeing now with Trump is not just a candidacy born out of narcissism nor a personality cult or anything, but the germ of a movement that has been long in coming.
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this is it exactly. You are good with words skl. I wonder if gender based affinities will drive low information voters to the polls like the culturally based ones for Obama..
noone1 said:
I agree with the spirit of what you're saying but totally disagree with the content so I won't get into it here, as it will make me very angry.
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This is why I have a hard time with my bro in law. When fact or logic isn't on his side he gets all emotional and upset. Typically name calls and things of that nature, I never understood it.
 
SKL said:
I think a lot of low information voters are very unhappy with the state of things, but most of their support for the Democrat party are naïve indoctrinated college-educated Whites, who are, despite fancy degrees, etc. in fact often relatively low-information outside of their own echo chambers, and in minorities who supported Obama simply out of cultural affinity, and for a variety of reasons which I find harder to understand are quite fond of Hillary.

The only thing that will save us is working-class Whites, and hopefully enough of the more culturally and religiously conservative Blacks and Hispanics will wake up to the liberal agenda to radically redefine fundamental social institutions like marriage and even prioritize ideology over ontology and biology when it comes to "sexual identity." The more liberal impulses of these groups are stoked my the media and manipulated by radicals of all stripes—but a lot of the people at the top are actually White and Jewish and motivated only by a political agenda rather than any real love for other groups. See, the furore over police misconduct of varying degrees of severity from genuine to imaginary, but the incidences of which are neither less nor more than before, but now receive a lot of attention, leading to #BlackLivesMatter, etc. which is a giant distraction for minorities from the real issues; just like the sexual identity politics is the same sort of distraction for White hipsters and SJWs. It's all connected and driven by the media.

But I think the people, ordinary Americans, will rise up against it all of this nonsense in the end. We face significant demographic threats, but when I see the outpouring of support for someone like Trump, hypocrite and buffoon that he may be, it is in rebellion against all of the above, which is why the media–cultural Marxist axis can barely understand, and at first mocked and now mongers fear against the man. But that he's created a genuine movement gives me hope. He may not win in the general but a segment of the populace is becoming more and more politically aware and involved, as evidenced also by some nascent right-wing movements largely based on the Internet, and there is a genuine backlash against rampant identity politics, victim-mongering, "SJWery," "political correctness," and so forth. These movements on the left have already achieved the redefinition of marriage, now they want to redefine sexuality in general, and so on, and so forth; they have gone too far. Immigration and demographic changes are going too far. America is losing it's identity. And we won't give up without a fight; what we're seeing now with Trump is not just a candidacy born out of narcissism nor a personality cult or anything, but the germ of a movement that has been long in coming.
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SKL said:
I find so much common ground lately with folks with whom we hold one another's politics to be mutually deplorable. A bit of the old horseshoe theory, perhaps, but also a sign of the times—anything to break the status quo and the iron grip of whatever the subtle matrix of corporations, military, NGOs, governments, ethnic voting blocks, whatever, that creates our current world. Both of us want to burn it down, but want to remake it in a different image. It is quite easy for me to ally with the left on many economic issues, i.e. in governmental involvement in finance and even the means of production, and protectionism (which doesn't fit easily into our current left–right paradigm), although not on some others (minimum wage, for instance, which I think is just bad economics); I can't with the social-domestic policies and the identity politics and the rejection of identitarianism among the groups who historically built our country but the celebration of identitarianism among others, etc. A practical alliance between people of my persuasion and people of yours is probably possible in the short term but would likely end as well as it did in WWII, albeit with a bunch less snow. Either way, I find it fascinating how many points of agreement I find myself having with leftists although disagreeing on so much more, but those points of agreement being some of the most essential changes needed to be made in government (campaign finance reform, state seizure of the banks, etc. being among them.) Interesting stuff.
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Both excellent analysis of the current climate. But I will argue that the continuing rise of the Police State is real,started by W and shamelessly escalated by the Obama administration.Granted,Blacks bear the brunt of it but now everyone is a potential victim and a lot of the frustration is directly tied to the abuse of power by lawless authority while the criminal elite are allowed to skate.The right has shown their angst by supporting Trump and the left by supporting Sanders.Only those invested in the status quo,including the treasonous right wing elite,are or will be voting for Hillary in November.Both sides use social issues to great success in advancing the fallacy that they have different values but when it comes to maintaining their grip on power,bi-partisanship rules the day,always.Regrettably,we have reached the point where the only answer is to burn it all down and see what emerges.Hopefully,as I believe,the majority of Americans simply want freedom,fairness and a level playing field of opportunity for all.
 
spacejunk said:
I don't know, socko.
I think voter ignorance is one part of a larger problem.
Information - and editorials and political analysis has never been more easier to access in massive quantities.
Yeah, the amount of information available is too much for anyone to read - let alone process and understand - but i don't think access to knowledge is as much of a problem as media misinformation, distraction, personality-politics and insanely expensive campaigns are. Bread and circuses kind of stuff.
But even if we were to have some kind of media reform - where independent, dissenting voices were able to be heard by large amounfs of people - amongst the noise of the shallow sound-byte corporate media - it wouldn't solve the flaws in what "democracy" has become.
Taking various wealthy special-interest lobby groups out of the equation, would be a start - but again - there are still a lot of things in our current political system(s) - ie not just the US - that are deeply flawed.
This is because there is no perfect model.
And of course, you can't please everyone all the time. My belief regarding the (itself simplifically flawed) left-right political divide is that we humans just all think differently.
I believe studies into the way human brains work have shown differences in terms of neurological make up of "left-leaning" and "right leaning" individuals - as well as social and environmental conditions that shape our belief systems.

It would be great to take ego and self interest out of politics - but how realistic is such a proposition?
No system is perfect, but i'd just like to see more pragmatic solutions to society's problems being offered by our leaders.
Slogans are great for television news segments - but rarely mean very much.
Blaming an ideological rival - or an easy scapegoat is again, just cheap and shallow.

For too long, people have voted with apathy.
Seems like Americans are quite interested in this particular campaign - from what i gather, because so many people are having a tough time economically and socially.
Yet, at this point - the (arguably) two most vacuous candidates from the major parties are looking like contesting the presidency against one another.
Shit's fucked up.
Click to expand...
In this case, we need a way to make it possible for voters to identify the better candidate. The election results of the past several decades idicate that most voters do not know how to do this. Politicalfacts fact-checking websites are a step in the right direction but they can be fooled. They miss flip-flopping (opportunisitic temporary policy shifts).

I don't expect everyone to be able to understand the science behind AGW, foreign policy, or economics, but everyone who votes needs to be able to identify the candidate who understands these issues and how they will deal with them. Every voter needs to understand what the big issues are. Instead of taking a balanced perspective and voting based this, too many people vote for only one insignificant reason- gender, race, guns, abortion, immigration, or whatever their community leader tells them to vote for.

I agree with you that some issues are hard wired, and no matter how smart or knowledgeble one is, they will always have a left or right view social issues in particular like abortion. There is some scientific research that backs this up.
 
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socko said:
I don't expect everyone to be able to understand the science behind AGW, foreign policy, or economics, but everyone who votes needs to be able to identify the candidate who understands these issues and how they will deal with them. Every voter needs to understand what the big issues are. Instead of taking a balanced perspective and voting based this, too many people vote for only one insignificant reason- gender, race, guns, abortion, immigration, or whatever their community leader tells them to vote for.
Click to expand...

I agree. Very well put.
 
MMT said:
Both excellent analysis of the current climate. But I will argue that the continuing rise of the Police State is real,started by W and shamelessly escalated by the Obama administration.Granted,Blacks bear the brunt of it but now everyone is a potential victim and a lot of the frustration is directly tied to the abuse of power by lawless authority while the criminal elite are allowed to skate.The right has shown their angst by supporting Trump and the left by supporting Sanders.Only those invested in the status quo,including the treasonous right wing elite,are or will be voting for Hillary in November.Both sides use social issues to great success in advancing the fallacy that they have different values but when it comes to maintaining their grip on power,bi-partisanship rules the day,always.Regrettably,we have reached the point where the only answer is to burn it all down and see what emerges.Hopefully,as I believe,the majority of Americans simply want freedom,fairness and a level playing field of opportunity for all.
Click to expand...

I agree with dismantling a large of the police state before, here's a story about how I once woke up and answered the door to a squad of about 7 cops with military grade equipment pointed at me, which was unnecessarily even if I was what they probably thought I was (the actual thing is a long story and immaterial here) ... but yes, I think we have too many laws in general, that the War on Drugs has failed, that military police enforcement tactics are more often than not brought to bear unnecessarily, etc. What I dislike, though, is the cynical use of disproportionate statistics (and there are niceties to the statistics here that of course are ignored by the cynical users) and general moral panic about police force against Blacks in particular which is simply a shameless grab at their votes, it's exactly how our incredibly incompetent and overtly nearly-Communist but covertly in bed with developers &c. mayor here in NYC.
 
SKL said:
I agree with dismantling a large of the police state before, here's a story about how I once woke up and answered the door to a squad of about 7 cops with military grade equipment pointed at me, which was unnecessarily even if I was what they probably thought I was (the actual thing is a long story and immaterial here) ... but yes, I think we have too many laws in general, that the War on Drugs has failed, that military police enforcement tactics are more often than not brought to bear unnecessarily, etc. What I dislike, though, is the cynical use of disproportionate statistics (and there are niceties to the statistics here that of course are ignored by the cynical users) and general moral panic about police force against Blacks in particular which is simply a shameless grab at their votes, it's exactly how our incredibly incompetent and overtly nearly-Communist but covertly in bed with developers &c. mayor here in NYC.
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The swat team was originally only brought out for hostage situations and they did not have as much of the military gear they have these days. I think they got sick of doing nothing now they go after low level dealers.
 
I would like to post my supreme and unfettered love for Donald<3

NSFW:
Because really he is doing an absolutely bang up job of utterly making the Republican party look like absolute bat shit crazy idiot morons. Could it be that Trump takes down the whole party single handedly? Thank You Donald.. YOU CAN DO IT!!!
 
I would like to post my supreme and unfettered love for George W. Bush<3

NSFW:
Because really he is doing an absolutely bang up job of utterly making the Republican party look like absolute incompetently crazy idiot morons. Could it be that Bush takes down the whole party single handedly? Thank You George.. YOU CAN DO IT!!!


Oh wait, that was several years ago... carry on.
 
neversickanymore said:
NSFW:
Because really he is doing an absolutely bang up job of utterly making the Republican party look like absolute bat shit crazy idiot morons. Could it be that Trump takes down the whole party single handedly? Thank You Donald.. YOU CAN DO IT!!!
Click to expand...

This man is completely crazy. Radical racist, a complete idiot IMO. Sometimes hearing what he says followed by applauses and victories, like in Indiana makes me wonder everything is really possible. If this man continues to spread hate with this narrow mind way of thinking, US can soon get into real trouble. People will want to fight back, we've seen this before.

I'm not following the elections as closely as I would want to. But is it possible that this idiot beats Hillary?
 
One definition of racism is: "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

Another definition of racism is the combination of race

"race 1 (rās)
n.
1. A group of people identified as distinct from other groups because of supposed physical or genetic traits shared by the group. Most biologists and anthropologists do not recognize race as a biologically valid classification, in part because there is more genetic variation within groups than between them.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the Celtic race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.
5. Biology
a. A usually geographically isolated population of organisms that differs from other populations of the same species in certain heritable traits: an island race of birds.
b. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.
6. A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine."


and the morphological suffix -ism; by which is defined as:

" -ism: a suffix appearing in loanwords from Greek, where it was used to form action nouns from verbs ( baptism); on this model, used as a productive suffix in the formation of nouns denoting action or practice, state or condition, principles, doctrines, a usage or characteristic, devotion or adherence, etc. ( criticism; barbarism; Darwinism; despotism; plagiarism; realism; witticism; intellectualism)."


Therefore, depending on the context of its usage, can mean the appreciation for the existence of race and its diversity. Talking about race, is a discussion on the state, condition, principles, doctrines, or characteristics of diverse individuals denoting historical, national, geographic, or genetic differences.
 
If you think Trump is a radical racist I don't think you have much experience with actual racially oriented politics.
 
I dig your use of extended UNICODE logic symbols. I actually keep a file open of useful characters mostly because I can't seem to find how to type em/en dashes but I have the math stuff too, haven't had the chance to use lol.
 
Droppersneck said:
Solid post BP didn't know you were into American politics. Being an Aussie I'd venture to say you are left of centre, but that doesn't mean anything if you are willing to follow a logical line of thought.
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I am willing to criticize my own ideas. I'll start with saying that my case on racism is full of holes and I'm waiting for someone to pick it apart.
 
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