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2016 American Presidential Campaign

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So no Bernie/Trump debate, eh?

let's just say one of them showed up.

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After changing his mind four times during the course of that day, Trump decided it would be a bad idea.
 
Talk about liars I think Hilary beats out trump anyday of the week. Felt so good bc I feel like i talked a good buddy of mine out of throwing his vote out by voting for Gary Johnson and voting for trump yesterday. He lives in a key purple area of Kentucky so it felt like a bit of a moral victory.
 
The most hilarious thing about Trump supporters is that they don't realize the only reason he even has a chance of being taken semi-seriously in this race is because his presumptive Democratic opponent is such a corrupt and hated person. Replace Hillary with Bernie and you might as well just skip the November election, Trump stands zero chance of winning.
 
Bardeaux said:
Trump is recorded as the most lying presidential candidate in some time.

Not that I'm such a huge clinton fan, but numbers is numbers.
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politifact check is only able to measure certain kinds of lies. But the minute somebody changes her mind about a position or a policy, it is no longer counted among the lies. It doesnt even matter why she changes her mind, no matter how calculated the reason. It could be to court a new Wall Street donor or simply to follow the latest polling info to win a state. She has lobbied hard and pushed NAFTA and TPP and other trade agreements on the country her whole career yet suddenly she says she no longer supports these pacts "in their current form" the minute Sanders and Trump say they hurt workers. She has a rally for low information voters and tells them sher is their long-suffering abuela who sneaked across the border and spent her life picking apples for 1$ a day, etc etc etc. This kind of flip flopping is just as dishonest yet goes under the radar. She misleads the public about her emails by having her spokes people lie for her - claiming that other Sec of State also had private email servers in their basement.... Clinton has made a career out of "flip flopping" making her just as big a liar as anybody else.
 
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Droppersneck said:
Talk about liars I think Hilary beats out trump anyday of the week. Felt so good bc I feel like i talked a good buddy of mine out of throwing his vote out by voting for Gary Johnson and voting for trump yesterday. He lives in a key purple area of Kentucky so it felt like a bit of a moral victory.
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that's the best you can do for your guy? sure he's an unbelievable pants on fire liar but hillary is just as bad...

weakest of sauces.

alasdair
 
socko said:
politifact check is only able to measure certain kinds of lies. But the minute somebody changes her mind about a position or a policy, it is no longer counted among the lies.
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I don't understand. Politifact judges comments made by political figures, not official positions. If Hilary or Trump both made the same false comment in 2009, it would remain a false comment. If they change their minds and issue a true comment on the position in 2016, it's going to be ruled a true comment, not voiding the 2009 comment. During the course of this campaign, Donald has been the biggest liar by quite a large margin.
 
GenericMind said:
Hillary is one of the most dangerous people on the entire planet. And no I'm not exaggerating.

Donald Trump is like a puppy compared to her.
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I agree for sure. The Clinton family is just fucked. Who was that billionaire pedophile bill flew on his plane like 28 times down to his mansion. Hilary is more anti woman than trump could ever hope to be.
 
I'm not even talking about any of her domestic policies and actions which are scandalous enough as it is. I'm talking about her being a driving force or intimately involved in every major military conflict and military coup we've been involved in for the past decade plus. She voted for the Iraq/Afghanistan wars as a Senator, she had her hand in the military coup in Honduras as Secretary of State, she was the one that convinced a "wary" president Obama(from the president's own mouth) to arm the rebels in Syria and Libya to fuel their civil wars. Which, by the way, led to complete destabilization of the region and allowed ISIS to form there in the power vacuum. She also sold hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons to dangerous countries who all just so happened to make multi-million dollar contributions to her personal "Clinton Foundation" charity. The Secretary of State has a lot more power than people realize. It's basically the second most powerful position in the country behind only the president.

And why did she do all this? Because she thought all those actions were for the good of Democracy around the world? Fuck no. It's public record that the 5 largest weapons manufacturers are among her biggest donors. She's received millions from the companies that make our missiles, tanks, guns, and fighter jets.

So while people sit around and fret over what Donald Trump would do as president, they're somehow not understanding that the other option is a woman who has helped cause the deaths of literally hundreds of thousands of civilians and thousands of soldiers and who clearly has no hesitation in fueling real life war where people DIE, strictly for money or power. It blows my mind that anyone could believe some jackass with a big mouth who has never done anything remotely as dangerous as her is somehow a bigger threat to America and the world.
 
So will you vote trump if hilary is nominated? I doubt he can take NY in the general though altho he did quite well in the primary. the city is a lost cause except maybe SI. if he pulls it off it'll be because white folks from upstate turn out en masse and turnout among minorities is in the toilet down here. I don't imagine both of these things happening at once which to me would be necessary. Informally, a lot of my black friends and coworkers (and that is a fairly large sample) like Hilary and the Clintons in general (remember Bill "our first black president?") Of course in the beginning Obama could do no wrong and was almost a messianic figure (I remember the atmosphere in Harlem the night the results were announced and over the next few weeks and months, there was even a guy who would walk around with a sign with a Bible verse on it referring to "Barak," a fairly obscure warrior from the book of Judges, claiming it was some sort of prophecy about the president. But by now some of them have even soured with Obama. But I guess Bill was always popular in this demographic and they extend that to Hilary. Most of these people don't really follow the international stuff too much. But GM is right Hilary is a war criminal and at the center of some of the worst stuff that's happened post 9/11.

I can't fathom wanting to vote for Hilary though. Really. I think the #1 thing is probably 90s nostalgia to be honest and the whole "two for the price of one" deal. Clinton presided over a prosperous and relatively peaceful time in this country. We want that back. A lot of people probably feel like putting a Clinton in the white house again will do that , magically. But it's a different country and a different world now and Hilary will continue the policy of Obama who continued the policy of Bush. Everyone is a neo-con now. There is far too little talk about foreign policy in the media coverage of the election and candidates statements and platforms, speeches, even the debates (which are a bizarre ritual to watch.) The media obsesses over idiocies like transgender bathrooms, and Obama unilaterally tries to shove it down the country's throat. And transsexuality is now hip in the media just as homosexuality began to be as the Overton window shifted on that issue earlier; and the fact that gay marriage came about would have been unfathomable just a few years ago. And every black man shot by the police is now a victim and a hero and a media circus. Why all the focus on identity politics? Because it gets people riled up. It gets me pretty damn riled up. And riled up about that I think about the other stuff (and, as an aside, Trump is hardly better than Clinton on this kind of stuff, "the bathroom of their choice," etc.)

GM what's the political atmosphere like up there? Is there enthusiasm for Trump? Did people like Bernie? I know he did pretty well upstate in general ...
 
Bardeaux said:
I don't understand. Politifact judges comments made by political figures, not official positions. If Hilary or Trump both made the same false comment in 2009, it would remain a false comment. If they change their minds and issue a true comment on the position in 2016, it's going to be ruled a true comment, not voiding the 2009 comment. During the course of this campaign, Donald has been the biggest liar by quite a large margin.
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My point is changing your official position is a form of dishonesty, especially when it is for any of the shallow reasons I gave above, yet politifact cannot judge it a false comment. If it did, HRC could be ranked as the biggest liar of all the candidates.
 
SKL said:
Hilary will continue the policy of Obama who continued the policy of Bush.
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In what sense did Obama continue the policies of Bush? Foreign policy? Economic policy? Social policy? I'm not seeing it but am interested in how you see the policies as related. A certain amount of continuation is inevitable as presidents do not get a blank state from which to operate, however I do not believe that is what you are getting at.

There is far too little talk about foreign policy in the media coverage of the election and candidates statements and platforms, speeches, even the debates (which are a bizarre ritual to watch.) The media obsesses over idiocies like transgender bathrooms, and Obama unilaterally tries to shove it down the country's throat. And transsexuality is now hip in the media just as homosexuality began to be as the Overton window shifted on that issue earlier; and the fact that gay marriage came about would have been unfathomable just a few years ago. And every black man shot by the police is now a victim and a hero and a media circus. Why all the focus on identity politics? Because it gets people riled up. It gets me pretty damn riled up. And riled up about that I think about the other stuff (and, as an aside, Trump is hardly better than Clinton on this kind of stuff, "the bathroom of their choice," etc.)
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I think this is a criticism of the media first and foremost. The politicians have to pander to their constituencies. The media is to blame for getting people worked up over this unimportant stuff. As far as I can tell, this isn't an entirely new phenomenon though. I may have been young before, but it seems that abortion, etc, played a pretty big role in previous elections.
 
alasdairm said:
^ so a politician should not be allowed to change their mind for any reason?

alasdair
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She's done more than that. She's flip-flopped on almost every major issue when it's politically convenient for her. The timing of these switches make it painfully obvious they're not due to a genuine change of heart.
 
GenericMind said:
She's done more than that. She's flip-flopped on almost every major issue when it's politically convenient for her. The timing of these switches make it painfully obvious they're not due to a genuine change of heart.
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i understand that and it is different. my comment was aimed more at socko's "My point is changing your official position is a form of dishonesty..."

alasdair
 
Droppersneck said:
what about that time she got really snippy with terry groce of NPR for callin her out on being against gay marriage and then doing a 180 and denying she was ever not against or had changed her mind for polical convenience?
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what about that time trump lied about pretty much everything he's told you on the campaign? remember that?

:)

alasdair
 
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