2016 American Presidential Campaign

[StoneHappyMonday]

On the social democrat/democratic socialist thing...you'll find no better example, if you can drift out of American politics for a second, than the situation in the UK over the last 30 years.

Tony Blair = social democrat. A man who, to many, destroyed the ideals of the Labour Party (Google Clause 4). And in doing so he was only really following on from the efforts of 'the Gang of Four' (so many 4's) who, in the 1980's, broke away from the Labour Party, horrified at the left turn they perceived (which wasn't actually very real) and formed the SDP, the Social Democratic Party. This in turn was a short-lived attempt at changing the face of British politics rightwards, though Thatcher, in her unique way, and Blair in his made sure the change was eventually made.

And now we have an attempt to turn back the tide, within the Labour Party, with the democratically elected new leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who is most definitely a democratic socialist.

Socialism was destroyed here by Thatcher. For the last proper socialist, and the defeat of socialism, see Arthur Scargill and the defeat of the miners in 1984/5.

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

On the social democrat/democratic socialist thing...you'll find no better example, if you can drift out of American politics for a second, than the situation in the UK over the last 30 years.

Tony Blair = social democrat. A man who, to many, destroyed the ideals of the Labour Party (Google Clause 4). And in doing so he was only really following on from the efforts of 'the Gang of Four' (so many 4's) who, in the 1980's, broke away from the Labour Party, horrified at the left turn they perceived (which wasn't actually very real) and formed the SDP, the Social Democratic Party. This in turn was a short-lived attempt at changing the face of British politics rightwards, though Thatcher, in her unique way, and Blair in his made sure the change was eventually made.

And now we have an attempt to turn back the tide, within the Labour Party, with the democratically elected new leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who is most definitely a democratic socialist.

Socialism was destroyed here by Thatcher. For the last proper socialist, and the defeat of socialism, see Arthur Scargill and the defeat of the miners in 1984/5.

Do you think the UK was simply not ready for socialism? Was Tony Blair a true social democrat? I find Blair and Sanders to be very far apart politically. IMO Blair was a neo-con masquerading as a member of the Labour Party. I think the UK has regressed in recent years, and if they go through with the Brexit will simply become Britain. No more great. They will still sort of have their United Kingdom, for all the good it does them. I don't understand how they can't see it is the equivalent of cutting off both legs in order to keep the infection from a gangrenous toe spreading.

The Brits would do well to look just how tied up they are within, specifically, the German economy. Germans fear war more than anything else, and have more or less sewn themselves at the hip to Britain (primary local English speaking country). However, Germany has also established a much larger capacity to take and diffuse economic damage. They have pretty much ensured that when Britain falls off the cliff, they will have something to hang onto. This is all my theoretical opinion based on what I have read, and my limited knowledge of the economies of both countries.

 

[mal3volent]

Looks like Hitlery Clinton is on CP time.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Do you think the UK was simply not ready for socialism? Was Tony Blair a true social democrat? I find Blair and Sanders to be very far apart politically. IMO Blair was a neo-con masquerading as a member of the Labour Party. I think the UK has regressed in recent years, and if they go through with the Brexit will simply become Britain. No more great. They will still sort of have their United Kingdom, for all the good it does them. I don't understand how they can't see it is the equivalent of cutting off both legs in order to keep the infection from a gangrenous toe spreading.

The Brits would do well to look just how tied up they are within, specifically, the German economy. Germans fear war more than anything else, and have more or less sewn themselves at the hip to Britain (primary local English speaking country). However, Germany has also established a much larger capacity to take and diffuse economic damage. They have pretty much ensured that when Britain falls off the cliff, they will have something to hang onto. This is all my theoretical opinion based on what I have read, and my limited knowledge of the economies of both countries.

I like to think that in 1980 the country could have tipped either way and we missed a massive chance for democratic socialism to take a step forward, which would in turn have helped prepare the ground for socialism. Unions were strong, strikers won strikes and conditions and wages improved for workers quite dramatically throughout the 1970's. The Labour Party came within the width of a gnats cock (sorry, don't know where that came from) of electing Tony Benn, symbolic spearhead radical at least, as deputy to the already radical Michael Foot as the Labour leadership. If that had happened, and the Falklands war had not happened (Thatcher was at the bottom of the polls pre the Falklands) everything could have turned out very different.

Was Blair a true social democrat? That's an interesting question of political linguistics from which I could stay into all sorts of conspiracy to support what you say about him masquerading. Blair, by his own admission, had no firm politics at all at university aged 21. Not bad for someone who went on to lead the party supposedly representing the left by the age of 40. But I'll leave aside the conspiracy theories. What is sure, in the UK, is that social democracy, in the form of the failed SDP, was already hijacked by what you label neocons. For some of us here, there is little difference. Were the Gang of Four that different to Blair? Take out Shirley Williams and I don't think so. Were they any different to Thatcher? Probably not. Where this leaves you, the USA, and your attempts to define Bernie Sanders is...politically culturally relative and for you to decide.

Brexit, as you frame it, is another complicated issue I'll come back to, because it's an interesting one. I don't have time now, but I will get back to you later.

 

[treezy z]

Damn this thread is a fucking echo chamber .my only support is semi literate, WTF.

Say no to drugs and the mainstream.

 

[treezy z]

On the "conservative" (nothing left to conserve, new word needed) we got a problem with these inbred Cruz supporters.

There is a 100% chance Cruz is full of shit and he has verified, indisputable Goldman Sachs connections. Dude is the sleaziest politician I have ever seen as well and can't win a general election against damn near anyone. I'd like to see a search warrant on his yard to see how many prostitutes he has buried there.

Trump is probably full of shit, he's a blustering asshole but he's the only politician since at least JFK offering any answers. (And I'm basing this on theories JFK wanted to handle the Federal Reserve.

Trump destroys Hillary in the general, he's got WAY to much ammunition on her. One debate and she gets furious and starts yelling in a way that reveals her psychopathy to the public. The media will have to cancel the other debates or mute Trump or she's fucked. In fact, Trump get's the nomination Hillary gets indicted because Sanders has a good chance of winning. Republicans broker a nominee Hillary is not indicted and she will be the nominee with all the tricks up her sleeve.

Sanders is a complete pushover, I'll just call it like I see it he's a pussy and at least halfway with the establishment: globalist on the border, nominally against them on trade but his frail old arms are easy to twist.

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

On the "conservative" (nothing left to conserve, new word needed) we got a problem with these inbred Cruz supporters.

There is a 100% chance Cruz is full of shit and he has verified, indisputable Goldman Sachs connections. Dude is the sleaziest politician I have ever seen as well and can't win a general election against damn near anyone. I'd like to see a search warrant on his yard to see how many prostitutes he has buried there.

Trump is probably full of shit, he's a blustering asshole but he's the only politician since at least JFK offering any answers. (And I'm basing this on theories JFK wanted to handle the Federal Reserve.

Trump destroys Hillary in the general, he's got WAY to much ammunition on her. One debate and she gets furious and starts yelling in a way that reveals her psychopathy to the public. The media will have to cancel the other debates or mute Trump or she's fucked. In fact, Trump get's the nomination Hillary gets indicted because Sanders has a good chance of winning. Republicans broker a nominee Hillary is not indicted and she will be the nominee with all the tricks up her sleeve.

Sanders is a complete pushover, I'll just call it like I see it he's a pussy and at least halfway with the establishment: globalist on the border, nominally against them on trade but his frail old arms are easy to twist.

If you believe anything Trump says, I have a philosopher's stone I'm trying to sell. Bago already has one.

As you say Republicans are not conservative. Trump is way the fuck away from what could be considered conservative. Believe it or not, I am what used to be considered conservative, at least fiscally. It is really ironic to call this thread an echo chamber.

Have you stopped to think why the people with the seeming best educations tend to come to the same conclusions? Those that don't share my opinion on these conclusions, but understand them, are raping those who can't defend themselves using the system they have created. Republicans/Trump live in an amplifying echo chamber. You re-hash the same useless bullshit over and over again, trying to force it down the throats of people who, more than likely, have a broader perspective than you to begin with. When they disagree, you just get louder as opposed to any attempt at discussion.

I've read yall's shit for years Treezy. Do you really think you can sweep the past under the rug?

 

[treezy z]

Page after page of Sanders support, then occasionally me and droppersneck. It's a fucking echo chamber.

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

Page after page of Sanders support, then occasionally me and droppersneck. It's a fucking echo chamber.

You don't need to be here at all. In fact those of us who you think agree on everything disagree on quite a bit, we just have learned to discuss it in a civil manner with each other. There should be no surprise that those partaking in the same discussion often come to similar conclusions even if they hold different opinions about said conclusions. Maybe you should reflect that maybe you aren't even part of the discussion?

You obviously have no clue how I tick, so how about you ask me a legitimate question regarding something relevant? Or do you have no interest in discussion, and only want to dictate?

 

[spacejunk]

Page after page of Sanders support, then occasionally me and droppersneck. It's a fucking echo chamber.

Funny that, on a drug harm reduction website.

 

[Just A Guy]

On the "conservative" (nothing left to conserve, new word needed) we got a problem with these inbred Cruz supporters.

There is a 100% chance Cruz is full of shit and he has verified, indisputable Goldman Sachs connections. Dude is the sleaziest politician I have ever seen as well and can't win a general election against damn near anyone. I'd like to see a search warrant on his yard to see how many prostitutes he has buried there.

Trump is probably full of shit, he's a blustering asshole but he's the only politician since at least JFK offering any answers. (And I'm basing this on theories JFK wanted to handle the Federal Reserve.

Trump destroys Hillary in the general, he's got WAY to much ammunition on her. One debate and she gets furious and starts yelling in a way that reveals her psychopathy to the public. The media will have to cancel the other debates or mute Trump or she's fucked. In fact, Trump get's the nomination Hillary gets indicted because Sanders has a good chance of winning. Republicans broker a nominee Hillary is not indicted and she will be the nominee with all the tricks up her sleeve.

Sanders is a complete pushover, I'll just call it like I see it he's a pussy and at least halfway with the establishment: globalist on the border, nominally against them on trade but his frail old arms are easy to twist.

I campaigned for Cruz in Iowa -- was even a voice on one of our radio ads. I know the man (from several meetings, a lunch, and during the campaign) and he's not the person you think he is. He's honest, compassionate, and cares deeply about the United States and our people, history, and future -- and respects the limitations of the US Constitution. If he doesn't get the Republican nomination, I am probably going to vote for the Libertarian nominee.

 

[RedLeader]

If you haven't watched any of the Libertarian debates yet, you really should. Compared to the Republican and Democratic debates, they are refreshingly full of substance and respect for the questions, the candidates, and the audience, which the others treat as a large mass of "epsilons."





Also, they feature our very own stuffmonger. lol

Great stuff, very refreshing against the three ring circus that has the main spotlight. So great to hear such honesty on so many issues.

I think stuffmonger did very well. Yes, I am aware that he is a pathological liar and psychopath, and maybe my support for him is Trumpian in spirit, but I did think he did a good job.

Though he should have asked how many billions of tax dollars he'd immediately put toward getting to the bottom of the tan pv...make tan pv, not war.

 

[Just A Guy]

Great stuff, very refreshing against the three ring circus that has the main spotlight.

I think stuffmonger did very well. Yes, I am aware that he is a pathological liar and sociopath, and maybe my support for him is Trumpian in spirit, but I did think he did a good job.

Though he should have asked how many billions of tax dollars he'd immediately put toward getting to the bottom of the tan pv...make tan pv, not war.

lol -- I know, right? In the first debate, I liked Austin Petersen best. In the second, it was stuffmonger! Any of these guys would make good government officials, I believe, so long as they practiced what they preached.

 

[RedLeader]

I like Petersen's content, but I kind of want to punch the guy in the face. Especially when he said that line about reading the Constitution every day. But I'd support any of these guys at the end of the day.

Will be interesting to see who gets the party nomination. Any idea when this is settled?

 

[Just A Guy]

^^^ Yes! He's so smug and holier than thou it's a bit of a turn off. May 30th is the end of the Libertarian party's national convention, so I expect that's when we'll know who their nominee is.

 

[Just A Guy]

Ultimately, if Donald Trump wins the nomination for the Republican party, the conditions are right for the party base to abandon ship and move over the Libertarian party -- there needs to be an effective party to elect small-government officials and compete with the Democratic party.

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

I campaigned for Cruz in Iowa -- was even a voice on one of our radio ads. I know the man (from several meetings, a lunch, and during the campaign) and he's not the person you think he is. He's honest, compassionate, and cares deeply about the United States and our people, history, and future -- and respects the limitations of the US Constitution. If he doesn't get the Republican nomination, I am probably going to vote for the Libertarian nominee.

If true, this would put him without question ahead of Trump for me. I am concerned he is just a sleeze-bag politician using his religion as a tool.

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

Brexit, as you frame it, is another complicated issue I'll come back to, because it's an interesting one. I don't have time now, but I will get back to you later.

Thanks SHM, that does make things a bit more clear for me. I look forward to your feeling on the "AusBrit". Few Germans have this sentiment, and I want Britain to stay no matter what, but it is a funny play on words (Austreten -> Substantiv; Austritt: means to exit). It would also be the imperative for "leave Brit". Like I said, not a popular sentiment here, but the Germans have no official say.

 

[Shimmer.Fade]

Great stuff, very refreshing against the three ring circus that has the main spotlight. So great to hear such honesty on so many issues. .

Looking forward to be able to sit down and watch these. I've always kinda liked Gary Johnson. I have no clue about his politics because he always just talks about all the cool stuff he does outside lol.

 

[spacejunk]

Thanks SHM, that does make things a bit more clear for me. I look forward to your feeling on the "AusBrit". Few Germans have this sentiment, and I want Britain to stay no matter what, but it is a funny play on words (Austreten -> Substantiv; Austritt: means to exit). It would also be the imperative for "leave Brit". Like I said, not a popular sentiment here, but the Germans have no official say.

Agreed.
This section is so US-centric, i'd really like to hear people's views on the UK leaving the EU.
Yours especially, SHM.