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Is Fly Agaric worth it?

Just my idea of sensible, based on how tricky the drug seems in the first place from many reports I read.. and the unpredictability of having a significantly impacting psychiatric medicine in the mix.

So I guess the word 'definitely' is better changed to 'personally' in that post
 
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dumbest question ever. amanita muscaria is the supreme entheogen. nothing else is as a good. it can give you the greatest high on earth, union with God, etc. But, you need to be spiritually prepared or it can also send you to hell. But is it worth it? yes, absolutely. if i could only use one substance for the rest of my life, it would amanita muscaria without a doubt. no doubt.

you need to read these book:

herb of immortality by donald teeter

soma: divine mushroom of immortality by gordon wasson

sacred soma shamans by hawk and venus.

these books will tell you everytthing you need to knowo about amanita, its history, how to use it, etc
 
I'm not familiar with the other books, but the Wasson is widely criticized as a pretty poorly constructed theory.
 
Amanitas have way more lore it seems, and I appreciate that it is your favorite and that you have had incredible experiences with it, burn out, but I have to say I kind of doubt that it is a supreme entheogen - is it more reliable in producing entheogenic experiences compared to other entheogens (the classical ones I guess: mushrooms, mescaline, lsd, dmt / aya). Where are you getting that?

[For example: I would probably say that 5-MeO-DMT is the supreme entheogen because I cannot think of any other drug that has effects that are inherently entheogenic, profoundly spiritual, so while tricky in the sense that you want the heavenly and not hellish trip, it appears very reliable.]

You are entitled to your opinion, but calling it a dumb question suggests that it is (or ought to be) the consensus that Amanitas are best. Despite that 'lore', look at what reputation it has? (That is an open invitation and inquiry into how the world thinks about these entheogens.. :) )

We do not allow 'What should I take / should I take this?' type questions and threads, as this thread's title suggests. But fortunately the actual thread is not like that, it seems.

So rather than asking more people who are experienced with it to decide for the TS, I would instead ask: what is it like? Do you appreciate it? Do you trust it? What are the chances of pointless intoxication vs. entheogenic potential?
 
Yes, it ought to be the consensus that amanitas are the best. Unfortunately, most people are more interested in recreational effects rather than true entheogenic effects, or they are just ignorant about how to use amanita.

Perhaps I should clarify what I mean. I am speaking from a "shamanic" perspective, with my primary interest in entheogens being that of healing and regeneration. I don't fancy myself a shaman, but I have experienced and studied enough to understand a little bit about shamanic substances and I can tell you that substances like LSD, even psilocybin, are way over-valued on forums like this one. That is not to knock those substances in any way, they are incredible gifts from the Creator. But some people act like they are the only entheogenic substances. They are not. Many other plants have shamanic/ethneogenic uses and while how to use them may not be as straight forward as as LSD or psilocybin, they cannot be discounted.

Of course, you raise an excellent point. What criteria am I using? I am not going by reliability in the sense that If gave 10 people a pipe full of DMT and 10 people some amanita and asked them afterward who had a spiritual experience, it would not surprise me if more people from the DMT crowd reported a spiritual experience.

But that is like saying a toyota camry is a more supreme mode of transportation than an F-22 fighter jet because more people know how to drive it. From a shamanic perspective, having an ethenogenic experience is really basic and laughable almost to base anything on. I can have entheogenic experiences on a variety of substances. My interest is, what I can do with the substance in terms of maximum healing of the physical body, the brain and psychology and the spiritual growth potential.

That is where amanita muscaria shines above all other entheogens. It may not be as easy to use as LSD or psilocybin, that's for sure. It takes a lot of practice, time and effort to learn the ways of this mushroom, but the rewards are so much greater than what any other entheogen can provide.

It stands to reason that the supreme entheogen would also require more skill on the part of the user, just as how flying an F-22 requires more skill than driving a car. But once you learn to fly an F-22 you can travel a lot faster than you can with a car.

It's the same with amanita muscaria. Nothing else is as good, from a shamanic perspective. Read the book Sacred Soma shamans if you want to understand more about what makes it a superior tool to everything else.
 
From everything I've read amanita has nothing on mescaline or psilocybin, but I'll soon be in a position to say for sure.
 
Psilocybin is probably the main reason that Amanita rarely gets mentioned.Amanita Muscaria rarely contains much or any DMT.There are some varieties growing in Northern Europe that have enough DMT in them for a trip, but most don.t do much but make us feel drowsy or drunken.We have much better Psychedelics than that, with less toxic elements to endanger our Liver.
 
Amanita contains zero DMT ever. No mushroom does. It's not that kind of substance. Its effects are novel, and it has great cultural significance. So I think there's plenty of reason for some people to do it.

Amanita's toxicity has been greatly exaggerated. Especially when treated appropriately with heat, it's not dangerous.
 
My interest is, what I can do with the substance in terms of maximum healing of the physical body, the brain and psychology and the spiritual growth potential.

That is where amanita muscaria shines above all other entheogens. It may not be as easy to use as LSD or psilocybin, that's for sure. It takes a lot of practice, time and effort to learn the ways of this mushroom, but the rewards are so much greater than what any other entheogen can provide.

To each their own. I have worked with amanitas and taken them up to those ego death points, and I did not find them to be even a fraction as healing as LSD or psilocybin. Honestly, I find them almost worthless in that way. Aside from the orgasmic release of tension that accompanies such experiences I did not find anything within them that I could use in that way, and that particular release was no different in style or intensity than any strong serotonergic psychedelic has done for me.

I said earlier in this thread that I think amanitas would be cherished if psychedelics didn't exist, and I still stand by that because I find the experiences they provide to be incredibly similar in most ways, but for me the headspace of amanitas is something mimicking psychedelic thought trains but actually amounting to little more than drunken delirium. They're very interesting, but I couldn't really see myself ever getting anything worthwhile out of them to the level I do with psychedelics.
 
I remain interested in amanita's actual pharmacological properties: it used to be conventional wisdom that it was primarily a GABA agonist with some NMDA antagonism as well, but I remember reading that it's NMDA effects are now considered unlikely to significantly contribute to the experience. GABA agonists aren't exactly hallucinogenic, though--although the Z-drugs do come to mind... Hmm.

That leaves it with... Just NMDA antagonism, which many people find magical but I find to generally be rather humdrum. Still: it's an unusual property in the plant world, as far as I can tell, shared only with unrefined opium off the top of my head (though minus the opioidergic effects).

Now, this could be complicated by the way it binds to GABA--maybe with some sub-type-specific reverse agonism modulating AMPA receptor expression in interesting ways, along the same lines that fasoracetam modulates GABA receptor expression In what is most likely an AMPA-mediated fashion.

Edit: just looked into it: muscimol binds as a direct GABA-like ligand, rather than a PAM, and binds not only to GABA-A but also as a partial agonist to GABAAρ. GABAAρ is a weird receptor that generally occurs as a homopentameric arrangement of rings of the 3 ρ-subunit variants around an ion pore. It is also actually *the most prevalent GABA subtype receptor in the retina*, although it's found elsewhere in the CNS as well, and differs by its slow induction time and sustained action through gated chloride channels. It's also a receptor that GABA itself has 10x more affinity for than GABA-A and yet benzodiazepines, barbiturates, and other GABA modulators aren't believed to interact with it. Given its activity as a direct ligand rather than as a PAM, we'd expect to see variable results depending on where and how it's displacing GABA--if it binds to GABA-Aρ with a high affinity but dissociates rapidly, for example, this might have the end result of increasing neuronal activity in some brain regions, where it might be doing a poorer job than endogenous GABA at evoking the slow-moving GABAAρ receptors. Conversely, it could be doing the opposite effect--but in the process activating pathways that we don't normally associate with GABA only because most GABAergics don't interact with this receptor type--like... for example... activity in the retina. I'm also thinking of the kind of cortical activity that goes on during sober relaxation--day dreaming? Imagining, remembering, wishing?

Some people are really fond of the Z-drugs. They make me too tired to stay awake for the weirdness to kick in... But this does make me wonder whether they've ever been checked for GABAρ affinity... Though as PAMs binding in a totally different way than GABA, at a pocket formed across residues on the α and γ subunits of the receptor complex, and belonging to a bulkier structural class... I'm leaning towards probably not--at least not directly.

Still, zolpidem binds selectively to α1-subunit-containing receptors, and doesn't show activity at α1γ1 or α1γ3 containing receptors.... and γ2-containing receptors have been shown to form oligoheteromeric interactions with GABAAρ receptor complexes... So Zolpidem binds relatively selectively but with a very high affinity to α1γ2-containing receptors, some of which are paired with GABAAρ. I think we've found ourselves a shared mechanism, and also a very unconventional receptor target for hallucinogenic effects. I wonder what it would be like with the "conventional" GABAA affinity stripped out... Or if that would even be safe. Muscimol's GABAA affinity may be all that stands in the way of potential neurotoxicity, considering that it directly competes with endogenous GABA at the GABA-binding site of a membrane-hyper polarizing chloride channel.
 
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NMDA antagonism is not an identified mechanism of action of Amanita muscaria. NMDA agonism is what's caused by ibotenic acid; same receptor but very different effects. It may have some hallucinogenic properties for all we know, but it's also what causes ibotenic acid to be an extremely effective neurotoxin when injected into the brain....

I am not aware of there being any compelling evidence that a mechanism other than GABA(A) agonism need be required to explain the effects of these mushrooms. Do you recall where you read that from?
 
That was a brainfart that I quickly realized. I meant the other way around--and the NMDA antagonism theory may never have had any receptor studies supporting it--just conjecture based on its effects and the known NMDA agonist effects of ibotenic acid.

However, I'm also abandoning that thought in favor of this GABAAρ partial agonism stuff. See my above (slow in the coming) edit.
 
Gotcha. Yeah, that GABA receptor stuff is all pretty interesting, I've done a lot of research trying to connect the effects of muscimol and Z-drugs myself.

One of the things that interests me the most is that muscimol has been shown multiple times to increase glutamate release, and at least once this has been shown to be responsible for its tegmental dopamine release as well. It makes me wonder if the GABA agonism is the only thing preventing neurotoxicity in that way too.
 
Amanita's in lower doses can be recreational for some people.

Taken in high doses they can be shamanic for some people, in fact extremely shamanic, but it's a crap-shot as to how one will personally respond. Most people don't respond that well.

Very, very deep substance for those who do...but this is not recreational at these doses...far from it!

Also...potency varies widely with these, small, dense, brightly colored mushrooms tend to be much, much, more potent than larger, thinner ones...best to grind up into uniform dose and start at about 8 grams...working your way up.
 
For info on amanita I recommend the book Sacred Soma Shamans, written by a husband wife pair of "Soma Shamans". I have the book (and the DVD) and it is one of the greatest books I have ever read. There are a myriad of reasons why many people dont respond well to amanita, but for those who do, it is the greatest substance on earth.
 
Never read anything about amanita that appealed in the slightest, I remember reading that it was such a shit high that even the siberians abandoned it when they could get cheap vodka.
 
Most people dont like it. Only a small number of people that do it can appreciate the effects
 
It sounds like people shouldn't approach it looking for a good "high". It is not really a recreational drug and they will be disappointed.
 
My girlfriend's ex-boyfriend took amanitas as his first psychoactive greater than marijuana. He had a breakthrough, life-changing experience that was very difficult for him but also extremely rewarding and deep (he told me about it in detail). Basically he experienced meeting god and reviewing the entire history of time in the universe over and over again (he thought he had died and gotten stuck in an eternal loop). He had no connection to his physical self, he was up and moving and vocalizing (gibberish), and contorting his body, which freaked his friends out, but he doesn't remember any of that, only his internal experience. The experience ranged from euphoric and amazing to dark and terrifying for him.
 
Never read anything about amanita that appealed in the slightest, I remember reading that it was such a shit high that even the siberians abandoned it when they could get cheap vodka.

you are obviously ignorant and not well read on the subject. read sacred soma shamans, divine mushroom of immortality by gordon wasson and herb of immortality by don teeter. amanita is a entheogen though, not a recreational drug. of course most people who are looking for a recreational or escapist high would abandon it in favor of vodka.
 
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